What do you think?

[tryingtocope]

Hi All,

I don't post much but read here very frequently and would like to ask a question about a situation that's triggered me, I'm not sure why.  My father is a pastor and a very kind man.  He is controlled by my mother who I believe to be an N.  My daughter has been going to the youth group at his church for a few weeks and really enjoys going.  They are having an all night bowling/pizza party at the bowling alley tonight.  She was very excited to go.  Her day started early this morning.  I took her to skating lessons and picked up her friend, and from there to meet my father so she and her friend could go to this bowling party.  It's an hour and a half to my Dad's so we met half way.  She will be up all night, then will go to church in the morning and I had planned to pick her up about 3 so she could come home and rest a while, get her things ready for school tomorrow and get a good nights rest.  I called my father to make plans to pick her up and he says to me.... "she's not staying for the youth meeting tomorrow night?,  ... the whole point of the bowling/pizza party was for outreach purposes.  I believe from past experiences that he is repeating what my mom has voiced to him, but I'm not sure.  The words don't sound like him.

Anyhow, I believe it is best for my daughter to  come home at 3.  She will be extremely tired.  And I am having second thoughts about allowing her to attend these meetings.  I don't attend church myself, there are too many triggers and bad childhood memories for me.  I was allowing her to go because she enjoys it so much.  Do I owe the youths leaders her attendance tomorrow night because she attended the party today???     Don't I have the right to do what I believe is best for my daughter?  Is it rude and showing unappreciation for  the youth leaders because I believe my daughter doesn't need to go tomorrow night??     It feels like they are trying to control me and my daughter.  Does it sound that way to you??  My daughter has attended most Sunday nights for a few weeks and would enjoy continuing to go.  When she was younger there were big arguments about how she wore her hair and what she wore to church, so I pulled her out years ago.  I remember as a child being forced to wear my hair a certain way and dress a certain way and being punished for childish things I said or did and I resented that sooooooooo much. Am I obligated to have her go tomorrow night because she attended the party?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[pennyplant]

Dear Tryingtocope,

There are lots of ways to go on this one.  It is hard to separate out what is church, what is dad, what is mom....

As a mom of two boys who tended to get very over-tired whenever there was an all-night anything, I do kind of wonder why adults come up with such overwhelming activities for kids.  I'm 44 and I truly don't remember there being any all-night community events for kids when I was growing up.  It seemed to become a gimmick when my kids were growing up, though.  Any time I let them do these things they'd be exhausted and even get sick for a few days afterwards.  Just on that point alone, I think you have reasons to want to limit what she is doing all weekend long.  What about school on Monday?  Or is this a vacation week where you are?

It is possible that the youth leaders do expect participation from start to finish this weekend.  What was the tone when the announcement was made to begin with?

I'm not very experienced with church myself.  For reasons such as what you're going through right now.  I mean, it seems to me that outreach could occur during the party as well as later on tomorrow night.  I mean why have the party at all then if all the real outreach will occur tomorrow night?

Maybe others have more insight on this topic.  It seems kind of complicated to me.  But I guess if it were my family I'd be kind of wary about the pressure from Dad/Mom and whether this was the right church for my lifestyle and comfort level.  Of course, I don't go to church at all.  So, I have a bias.  Hopefully, there will be other ideas out there.

Pennyplant

[tryingtocope]

Hi Pennyplant...

They sent a brochure home from one of the meetings.  The party is considered over when they bring them to Sunday School in the morning.  I'm sure the event is designed to bring in more kids, but this attitude about she MUST be at the meeting tomorrow night because she went to the party I'm almost certain is coming from my mother.   I hate that this situation is happening because my daughter loves the group and I haven't gotten any bad vibes from the leaders.   She's just been in it so little time, and I'm feeling the need to bolt because of this pressure.  This is exactly the type of thing that drove me out of the church.  I'm feeling panicked and can't put my finger on exactly what part of it is upsetting me.   It's almost like if I allow to her attend, I owe them something or I'm obligated to make decisions that aren't in her interest.  I don't know, just really hard to explain.

[Hopalong]

Hi Cope,
My thought is if you feel you're detecting a subtle pressure for the church's agenda to override your mothersense...you LISTEN TO YOUR MOTHERSENSE.

Etiquette, misplaced fear of "being rude" to church leaders, is exactly what gets people into troublesome relationships with churches.

Another factor is your daughter's age, her own comfort level, and wishes...

I agree that all-nighters are silly, but they've done "lock-in" overnights at my church as well for teens. Not sure how clever it is but she did love it.

You trust yourself and honor your OWN authority over your child. That's my opinion...
Hops

[tryingtocope]

Thank you Hopalong... you are right.  You are so right.  I am detecting pressure, but I'm not sure at all it's coming from the youth leaders.   I am detecting pressure from my parents to ignore my intuition about what is right for my daughter.  I don't matter to them.  My daughter doesn't matter to them.  The only thing that matters to them is how mom thinks it will make them look if she doesn't attend.  That makes me soooo angry.     They aren't considering what affect going nonstop from Saturday morning until Sunday night will have on my daughter.  It's ALL ABOUT MOM.    But you know what...  tomorrow it's not going to be about Mom.  Tomorrow I am going to pick up my daughter at 3.  I'm going to ignore the guilt and the panic I feel and going to pick up my daughter because I believe that is what is best for her.

Thank you Hops...

You know what it feels like....  it feels like Mom is putting her own comfort level ahead of what's best for my daughter.  It makes me really sad. 

 

[Hopalong]

Good JOB, TtoCope!
Now that's a wonderful, important, hugely significant step.

I hugely regret not putting my daughter's well being front and center...still being so hypnotised by my NMom (to whom Appearances were EVERYTHING) that I didn't realize how toxic her effect on my daughter was...

(I didn't know what an N was until after my daughter was grown, unfortunately.)

YOUR daughter is going to benefit from your awareness.

It is sad about your Mom, but I think a lot of mothers are prisoners of their etiquette training and fear of social judgments... Let that be her problem. It's sad but not something you can fix.

You have your priorities straight. You're being a good mom.

Hops

[tryingtocope]

Hi Stormchild

The meeting on Sunday night is from 6 to 7:30, but since we live an hour and a half away, it would mean we would be home by 9pm, so it's not an all night thing on Sunday too.  But still, my daughter is only 12 and I just think it's best for her to be home between 3 and 5. This way she can have dinner, relax with her dog, shower and get a good nights sleep. 

It's funny that you mention boundary violations because it comes up each time I see my T.  How as a child my boundaries were continuously violated for mom's "image".  Her goal was and is to always look like the "perfect family" to the church members.  In the process she lost 2 of the three of us kids.  My sister won't speak to her, my brother has no communication, and I remain in contact for my fathers sake only.  He is sick and hasn't done the hurtful things she did when I was growing up. 

Thanks for telling me I'm doing the right thing.  My head knows I am, but my body is shaking thinking about this situation.  Hopefully as I get more practice enforcing my boundaries it won't be as difficult.

[pennyplant]

Thanks for telling me I'm doing the right thing. My head knows I am, but my body is shaking thinking about this situation. Hopefully as I get more practice enforcing my boundaries it won't be as difficult.

That's it exactly, practice, practice, practice!!!  Whatever you are feeling inside as you take this step towards strength is just for you.  Nobody else will know you're shaking inside.  And tomorrow night when your daughter has been home since 5pm and going through her normal, healthy routine you will feel so good.  You should feel proud of yourself too.  And it will be easier next time!

It is sad that N mom thinks it's all about hair style and the right clothes and pleasing people who aren't even really being critical (it sounds like she IS the only one worrying about your daughter attending the full slate).  It's sad but that's her thing.  It's going to work out just fine, TTC.   

PP

[Hopalong]

Dittos to PP, it sure is going to work out TTC!

Your shaking reminds me of what I had to learn about panic attacks. The physical symptoms can be so scary that I'd want to avoid any situation (especially good example would be setting boundaries with an N) that triggered them.

In all the reading and T-ing about panic attacks, the msg over and over was that it really does work to tell yourself, when you're feeling something like panic, and you're shaking, "I am not going to die. These are panic feelings, and they are not going to kill me, and they will pass."

Just keep repeating that. Shake, rattle and roll if you need to...it's okay. Just keep setting those boundaries, rattling away. One day soon you'll find yourself COMFORTABLY and CALMLY setting another one...and you'll notice your solid, steady knees.

Don't worry, (((((TTC))))) -- you are getting yourself AND YOUR DAUGHTER out of jail.

And you will survive. And huffy N feelings are only that ... huffy N feelings.

Don't let your mother's feelings run your brain. You've got a very good one.

Hops

[tryingtocope]

Hopalong...  your words have me laughing.  That's exactly what I will be doing,  shaking, rattling, and rolling.  I dread the lecture I will get.  It's the same lecture I grew up with and heard over and over again.  It's the reason i stay away from people and churches and the reason I fear people so much.  I can hear her now...  the leaders went to all that trouble to have this party and you don't even have enough respect for them to stay for the meeting.  How can you act like that.  This world doesn't revolve around you.  Don't you know the whole purpose was to bring people in?  How is it going to look when the pastor's daughter acts this way.  She will lecture and I will once again feel shamed.  But this time when she starts I'm going to think to myself....  huffy N feelings    These are huffy N feelings.  Every sentence she says...   

Pennyplant - practice, practice practice...  its what I tell my girls when they want to learn a new move in skating or when they are struggling with thier homework.  Now it's my turn.  Speaking my needs or my daughters needs is a no no in mom's house.  A very dangerous thing to do when I was growing up.   But I'm an adult now and these things shouldn't bother me.  When will I grow up. 

I'm taking you guys with me today.  I've printed the responses and will have them in my jean pocket so when the lecture starts I can grab the paper.  I will show the paper to no one.  Just grab it and know there is someone out there that heard me and doesn't think taking care of my daughter is a selfish thing to do.  Thanks.

[Brigid]

tryingtocope,
I have a slightly different feeling about this than some of the others, as my kids are now 21 and 17 and have been through these kinds of events.  I found them to be good experiences for my kids as it created a bonding experience with other kids I found to be positive influences.  My daughter has done it as young as 8 in brownies and will be doing it in a few weeks for her senior prom.  There are really some very profound and enlightening things to be gained from a church lock in as long as it is well planned, supervised and has a purpose.  You may as well get used to the occasional sleep deprived night as it only gets worse as they get older.

However, at the end of the day, you must decide to do what is best for your child despite any guilt trips being played by your parents.  But be sure you are doing it for the right reasons.

Brigid 

[Hopalong]

Deprogramming can be fun

 ... great comment, Storm!

TTC,
Boy are you doing great.
My only additional thought is this one. It may feel like too big a leap, but I do encourage you to consider it to whatever degree you can handle.

This is radical, but one example of a healthy boundary is:

Do you have the right to calmly decide you will not listen to a profoundly disrespectful lecture?

You are an adult woman, flappy knees and all. So, if you want a really satisfying challenge (it'd only work if you make it very simple and brief and then unplug your phone, imho), you could try some variation, as soon as she starts up the scolding:

--I am sure that you care about what's best for D, and I've decided it's best for her and for me if I not listen to criticisms of my decisions as her parent. I don't want to be on the phone now, so I'll talk to you later. Good-bye, hang up and uplug.

--I know you care about what's best for D and me. I've come to realize it's best for her to have her mother in charge, so I will not listen to any more criticism of my parenting decisions. Good-bye, hang up, and uplug.

--you get the idea...

[I often fantasize "scripts" for other people without knowing their situation and what would truly work for them...but just in case it's a good seed to plant!]

This is truly more beautiful and wonderful and life-affirming and hope-building than it is scary, TTC.

I am so impressed.
Trust this desire of yours!
(And don't "grade" yourself on your follow-through...it can be fumbly and imperfect and it doesn't matter that it needs repeating. Practice really is it. What's very cool is, you are now visualizing a different future, and the more you mentally visualize new boundaries, the more natural and confident you will eventually be in setting them.)

Good luck and let us know!

Hops

[Hopalong]

PS--regarding Brigid's thoughts--I understand and think that's a perfectly reasonable outlook on the church events.

But to me, this issue is NOT this decision about a church event. There will be hundreds more decisions about what TTC's daughter is and isn't allowed to do.

The issue is actually about TTC's mother's disrespect of TTC's own authority over her D.

It woudln't matter what the event or specific decision about D's activity is, imo. The same issue has to be addressed: TTC's learning how to practice and practice and practice setting firm boundaries with her mother until her mother catches on that TTC is D's mother and a grandmother had better respect her primary authority over her D's life.

Or grandmother gets less access to her granddaughter.

It's a wakeup for grandmother and a healing, empowering episode (first of many!) for TTC.

(Sorry TTC, talking about you as though you're not here!)

TTC, I think that it's best if you DON'T EXPLAIN your rationalizations or reasons for any specific decision about your D to your mother. You do not need your mother's agreement. In fact, the entire point is that if your mother happens to disagree with you, that's not relevant, because YOU are your D's mother.Your mother needs to get just a SHORT, to the point message, over and over until she realizes it's real. That is: It is not good for D or for me to have my parental decisions questioned, so I will not be listening to that any more. Goodbye, hang up, and uplug...

Hops

[Hopalong]

When you're with your mother in person,

Goodbye, I'll see you again, and leave.

Hops

[Hopalong]

TTCope--
I want to apologize for coming on overstrong here.
This thread rang so many gongs in mind I felt like a gamelan orchestra.

(I was really really re-experiencing how ridden-over I felt trying to parent my own child around my NMom.)

So please forgive the projection and toss the bossy overscripted bits!

You'll do this in your own way and at your own pace and that'll be just right.

Hops