the formerly voiceless learn to SHOUT

[mum]

My teenage daughter is refusing in a number of ways, to go over to her N dad's.
We had agreed she would go there today to start her spring break with him, but she is somewhat passively agressively refusing to go.
She didn't wake up til noon and told him when he called at 1 that she would come over when I left for my doctor's appointment at 2:45.
then she left a message at that time (he was not home??) saying she would rather come after my appointment at 5 ish
She did nothing to get ready for her time there (pack her bag, etc) and called him at 5 saying she wanted to come after he laundry was done. He was mad (she told me) but said to call him when she was coming.
At 5:40, she called him to ask what time dinner was and he basically hung up on her (saying he would call back).
He immediately called me. And yelled at me. Said I agreed to have her back at noon. True, I said, but I would not bodily pull an almost fully grown young lady, kicking and screaming over to his house. He yelled, that next time she is at his house, and late returning to mine, he will just throw his hands up and say "oh, well she's a big girl!" to which I said: fine, that's what I would do...(but I think he had hung up by then).
NOW what I see is that my daughter is very slowly slowly slowly getting a few things together, sitting on the couch, playing with her dog and when I ask her if she will call him, she says: it's up to him to call me...he needs to do that, or I won't budge.
She says she "wants to go, but not when he is acting like that". (can you blame her?)
 I told her this is between you and your dad. She said, "right, and we will deal with it....NO, HE will deal with it" and then she goes back to reading.
She occassionally comes to me and says "I cant' believe how rude he is being" etc. etc. "but he needs to call me".

There is a provision still in effect (I called my lawyer) that says neither parent will reasonably refuse the child's request to spend more time at the other parents house.....so there is really nothing to be done......especially on my part.

So my D is finding all these ways to SHOUT at her dad, but he will not listen. It is really sad for her.  I knew someday things between them would come to blows, as she is learning to use her voice in some interesting ways.

He just emailed me (what if I were not online, huh?) and insisted I tell him why I am not holding up my end of our agreement to return her at noon, and he wanted to hear it from me not her and I just reiterated what I told him )plus reminded him or the legal provisions). I am out of it.....this is between them...as much as he would like me to be the person controlling this, I am not...
She truly IS a big girl now, and she is shouting at him....I hope he listens.

So, if you could, send my little/big girl some powerful energy and prayers, she will need it!

[pennyplant]

Dear Mum,

Oh boy, it sounds like maybe your daughter is soon to become more mature than her father.
It's sure not going to be easy--good for you for letting it be between the two of them.
All my best to the both of you.

Pennyplant

[mum]

Thanks, Pennyplant: he keeps emailing me, telling me it IS between us until she is 18....I told him to stop blaming me and CALL his daughter....That I cannot fix this as much as he would like to blame me....we will see.....my d is pissed off now, and hurt and I have never seen such strength in a young woman, honestly. It's like she is walking into a wall of fire, and she just keeps going.....funny thing is, HE still wants it to be ME he argues with. What will he do when I keep insisting (and so does she) that he deal with her!!!!???
He is most likely fuming and or drinking....with his angry wife by his side....oh my poor daughter to have to go sleep there under that tension....

[pennyplant]

Oh, Mum, if only he had the ability to realize how he must seem to your daughter.
So, unreasonable of him.  And how do you factor in something like that in a custody agreement?
Well, I know you can't.  At least she has you for a refuge.  And she sure is going to learn a lot by this experience.
I hope that it  makes her a stronger, more determined, and self-confident person.

PP

[Hopalong]

Oh Mum,
I'm sorry. This sounds so wrenching.
I feel for your D and you, too--I'm sure it's agony to be stuck in between them.

She's being indirect with him, understandably, because it just crushes kids to have
to say, "I don't want to be with you"--to a parent. Even an Nparent. So she's
acting it out with passive non-cooperation.

She might benefit a lot from an assertiveness training class, because she'll really
need that skill to deal with him as things go forward. Would she be willing?

Good for you for not taking the bait, and letting it be between them.

Hang in there...I'm sorry it's such a rough night.

Hops

[mum]

Thanks, Hops and Penny. He finally called her. I could only hear that it was a heated arguement. She barked at me when I asked her if she was allright when it was over. Understandable. Then she asked if she could stay here overnight. She called him back, told him what she would like to do, and I heard her say "to give us both a chance to calm down". She will go over there tomorrow morning. On the phone, she was saying sorry to him, at his insistance, for ruining his day and his plans. He never once told her what it was doing to his day (remember for about 4 hours, she couldn't reach him). She was crying quite a bit when it was all over.

What really FLOORS me is that he didn't apologize to her. Never. He cannot accept any part of hurting her feelings, of accepting that maybe he needs to work on WHY she doesn't want to go over there right now. Never let her have a dignified way out....not a "oh, I guess our lines crossed, or it's no biggie, sweetie, I just can't wait to see you....etc".
He blames her, and me, but never himself. He can't touch that soft spot inside, that tenderness we feel right before we cover it up with a hardness and defensive meanness.
I say us, because we all feel it.....but the N's just blow right by it, ignore it, won't look at it. Pema Chodron talks about this a lot so I can't take any credit for that idea...it really makes sense to me. And I see my exN will do everything to avoid feeling that for more than an instant. It will always be someone else's fault, he will be the perennial victim/bully. He will stay hard to avoid what must be horrible for him, the pain under the pain, under the pain.
My daughter does NOT want to talk about "it" (or anything as far as I can tell). She can have her space. Maybe that's why she feels at home here, as she gets to just "be".

[Hopalong]

Ow, ow.
Memories.
My D's dad used to blame HER for not fitting into his plans, yet he never made a plan that was about her. It was always, I'm going to do ___ (something he enjoyed that was about him) and you can come if you want.

I yearned for him to say, I'm spending a day with you honey and you're going to tell me what we're going to do--go to your special place, whatever. Never happened.

It's excruciating to see your child come to the realization that their parent is never going to parent them. That their parent is a selfish child.

As your D grows up, she leaves him behind.
Thank god she has you, Mum.

((((((((((((((Mum and D))))))))))))

Hops

[Portia]

Oh Mum, you're a great mum.

I'm remembering what it's like to be treated exactly like an object that is supposed to be in one place or another, like a robot that has to move about to please other people. Your D has so many more good things going for her - like you! Thank goodness. ((((Mum & D))))

[movinon]

Mum,

I'm so sorry for all of this that is going on.  Good for you for saying it is between your D and him.  You are such a good example of being there when she needs you (decides to open up to you).  What a validation of the kind of mother you have been to her that she is so strong and mature!

She is learning a painful lesson and you will be there for her.

Sending you both love and light.

Movinon

[Brigid]

Mum,
Sorry, as always, that this is going on as I know what it's like to have a teenage daughter and all the angst that goes along with that even in a very happy home.

That being said, I'm glad to hear that she is beginning to figure out how to set her own boundaries with him and that you, in turn, are insisting that the two of them work it out.  It will be painful for her and, I guess, frustrating for him (who cares), for a time, but better that the "slap in the face" comes from her than from you.  Whether he ever gets it only time will tell, but at least the tides are beginning to turn.

I have a good friend whose adult children are still manipulated by her ex's whining and crying about them spending enough time with him (after he abandoned the family for another woman), and I think it is sad that they never found their own voices where he is concerned.

On the Saturday nights that my own daughter is suppose to spend with her dad, I have seen her go from getting there around noon and staying until dinnertime on Sunday, to leaving my house at 5 or 6 (or later), meeting up with friends, getting to his house around 12:30 at night (curfew), sleeping the next morning until 11 and coming home again by 2 pm on Sunday.  I don't say a word to either of them and if he's not happy about it, he'll have to figure out how to change it.

I send her strength and love for finding her voice and sticking to it.

Brigid

[Lynn L]

the whole topic about having a voice! Gee, how eye opening. It is probably a given to you all, but now, I know how to describe my childhood. I never knew how to do it. Now I do. It was totally voiceless! 100 per cent! God help me to give my children a voice. Thanks, Lynn

[cat]

My 13 year old niece went through this same thing with her father.  The mother didn't say bad things about the father - the father just kind of buried himself and he knows it.

The father "forgot" to call for her birthday and wish her happy birthday.  The father "forgot" to go to a major performance in front of 3,000 people.  The father kept on forgetting and forgetting.  Eventually, the daughter refused to speak with him on the phone.  When the mom answered, she would tell the dad - this is between you and her. Talk to your daughter - I don't want to hear it.

The father tried everything.  He used kids in the youth group at church to write letters guilting her back into attending his church with him.  He used the grandparents to call his daughter and then would switch the phone over to him.  The 13 year old refuses to have anything to do with her dad.  The mother warned the dad, but he didn't listen.

So - I applaud your daughter!  And I applaud you for helping her to stand.

[mum]

Thank you all for your support and kind words and shared experiences. The NNNNNidiot emailed me again last night, after they "talked" (more like he yelled at her) and wanted to know that I would INSURE her being at his house at 11. I told him 11:30 to be safe and he "confirmed".  Controlling, controlling controlling. What a wreck of a human.

So this morning, my d was in the car at 11:30, and I said, oh, we are only a few minutes late....to which she replied: "but by the time we get there it will be 5 minutes late."  Then she paused and said: "oh, so what! 5 minutes!"
It's like she catches herself taking on his negative energy....and then STOPS, thankfully. She is starting to recognize it.

She came over a while ago to pick up a few things (he waited in the car)....she hurried, of course, and I said "how are things going between you?" she said  "fine....like normal". But her body language was definately what she does when she is in protective mode....ah, well, nothing to be done.

My lawyer even called today to see if everything went ok. She was very concerned that something really bad might have happened.  It was good to hear her say she thought I did everything right, legally.

But underneath all of this, I feel sad for my children that they have such a big baby/bully for a dad.  Once, a long time ago, my daughter told me (after a funny remembrance I told her of my dad) that she would never know such a dad, or have such a relationship. That was years ago, but last night I remembered it. Maybe when we move to be with my new husband, she will get to see how a real man acts toward his daughter, (my step daughter) and she will feel that warmth herself...but it's not her dad, of course, but she can see how it should work.
I also recall my son, at age three, crying and saying he didn't want to grow up and be a man like daddy.  Hmmm. But guess what? He is NOT at all a man like his dad, he is caring, giving, sensitive and sweet.

NOT being involved in this struggle was definitely in order last night, and although my ex dreads it, it is how it will be from now on. ...she will take him to task on his behavoir, even though he may never listen.

[movinon]

Mum -

It's like she catches herself taking on his negative energy....and then STOPS, thankfully. She is starting to recognize it.

she will take him to task on his behavoir, even though he may never listen.

Wow!  - She sure didn't learn that from him!  I again want to validate that it sounds like you have done a wonderful job w/ your D.  YOu are giving her what she needs to grow into an insightful and strong woman!  And it sounds like your son has the same.  What a testiment to your mothering.

Any time you are feeling down about this situation, you can look back at what you wrote here about how your children are so empowered!  That is YOUR DOING!!!!!!

One question - Are you remarried?  You mentioned a new husband.

Movinon

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hi Mum

I’ve only just read all this.  It brings so many feelings to the surface for me, but I am so glad your Daughter is learning that it’s up to him.  It’s her dad’s responsibility and not hers, what a great thing for her to recognise.  It is up to her dad to pick her up, call her etc and if he yells at her, how surprising she doesn’t want to go over there (sarcasm!).

She is growing into a fine young woman.  See, it shows you do only need one good parent….

Take care

H&H xx