Reciprocity or Backwards Boundaries

[Hopalong]

Reading another thread, just had a thought to share. It's about priming myself to date again.

I believe that in most of my past relationships what I needed most in terms of boundaries was almost the inverse. IOW, rather than explaining to someone that I needed them not to intrude, control, invade, dominate, etc.... the boundary I needed to establish was within myself: that I would not allow myself to sink into love with someone who neglected or did not appreciate me.

In terms of expressing or setting that "backward boundary" with a potential partner, I guess it would be to make clear that I am only interested in a reciprocal relationship in which the other person is just as interested as I am in loving, communicating, and making a commitment to have the happiest and healthiest relationship possible.

It's been the "being absurdly grateful for crumbs" thing, my romantic past. As I get out there again, I hope I will emit a whole different attitude and expectation. (Just in case there's any truth to one getting what one asks for...)

Anybody else have a thought on "backward boundaries" or setting an expectation of reciprocity? (Not a demand for it, you can't do that...but just being clear within yourself that if someone isn't showing signs of genuine interest or enthusiasm, you don't turn yourself into a pretzel trying to persuade them of your value. You take your dignity and go home to enjoy your own company or look for another date who would value you.)

It's sort of like saying not "Leave me alone" but "Be interested"--or don't be with me in the first place.

Hops

[pennyplant]

That's what I want to learn how to do (not with dating but in general).  It's hard to give off an "air" of not wanting to attract the kind of people who will use you or disregard you.

But I have observed friends who get used and it does start right off the bat.  My friends will start giving gifts right away.  Will do all the phone calling.  Will pursue men who clearly prefer to mostly hang out with the guys.  These men will call when they need help with taxes, banking, shopping for daughter's birthday gifts, painting the house, etc. and these women will do all these things.  What the women get in exchange is an opportunity every so often to sleep with the guy.  He's got it made.  And she wonders why he won't date her exclusively and won't help her with her household tasks.

Hops, I know this kind of stuff is obvious to you.  I guess my suggestion is to really be alert at the very beginning to some of the material aspects of relationships.  Things you can actually tally up.  Who is doing all the phone calling, emailing, picking up, thinking of activities, helping, etc.  Chemistry sometimes lies.  My friends have felt enormous chemistry with these guys, but the material aspects of the relationship showed disregard right away.  It was a good predictor of what the answer would be when these men were asked about commitment.

This probably sounds paranoid or materialistic.  Really I'm about following the heart in these matters.  But I have seen that it gets really complicated for adults who have been married before.  I happen to be married to my high school sweetheart.  Which carries its own set of challenges.  But it was simpler for us since neither of us brought possessions or even much history to the relationship.  He called me.  I didn't have to chase him or give him gifts to impress him.  We thought about each other all the time.  And said that.  I don't think it's necessarily like that for adults.  But still, if it's a compatible person, I don't think you'll have to chase him down.

Ah, maybe I'm not the one to be answering this.  But it is of interest to me because I think it can be applied to regular friendships and to co-worker relationships.  I've been thinking about this concept.  Just take what you think might help.

Pennyplant

[Jona]

Hop

There is a  wonderful book on this very subject.  It is, "Why Men Love Bitches."  It is not about being a witchy kind of bitch but rather having respect for yourself and setting some healthy boundaries.  There are parts of it that are really funny.  I cannot remember the name of the author but you will find it on Amazon.

When I returned to dating I refused to call men and only returned calls occassionally if it was something important.  I gave very few gifts--just little ones even on birthdays and at Christmas. I let the man plan everything for dates.  If he planned something that I felt was inappropriate or that I absolutely didn't want to do, I just said, "I think I'll pass this time." I never went on "hang out" dates especially the ones where you go to his apartment, cook him dinner, watch a video, and then go to bed with him.  I never invited any of them over for dinner (which can also be a hang out date.)  I always made the man pick me up at my front door.   I didn't drive to meet him or worse pick him up.  I most certainly did not offer to pay for half of anything.  If a man even suggested it, I looked for a new man.  I dated several men at the same time and slept with none of them.  I never accepted a last minute date for a Saturday night.  I never answered the phone on a Saturday night.  After all, I already had other plans--even if it was to take a leisurly bubble bath and do my nails.  I never broke an engagement with a girl friend just because a man called and wanted to go out during that time.  I didn't spend hours talking to a man on the phone.  If he wanted to talk to me that long he could take me out.  I kept myself busy so if a man didn't call when I thought he would, I didn't turn myself into a pretzel trying to figure out why.

The result:  I am very happily married today to a man who treats me wonderfully.

[Hopalong]

This is phrased terrifically well, PP, thank you:

....the material aspects of relationships.  Things you can actually tally up.  Who is doing all the phone calling, emailing, picking up, thinking of activities, helping, etc.  Chemistry sometimes lies.  My friends have felt enormous chemistry with these guys, but the material aspects of the relationship showed disregard right away.  It was a good predictor of what the answer would be when these men were asked about commitment.

Yes, I have read and (finally!) absorbed many of these clues to red flags, commitment phobia, etc.
I also agree with you that this issue applies to all sorts of relationships in life. Absolutely.

What I'm wondering is if other people think that "rejecting neglect" is an example of boundary-setting... It seems sort of like a flipping over of what I usually think about boundaries, which normally are about creating healthy separateness. Yet I am talking about learning how to refuse to entangle myself with people who are OVER separate, or uninterested in connection.

I'm starting to think that life is too short to spend my deeper energies with people who would always be semaphoring "don't be close, I don't want to be intimate." Yet I'm concerned too that I might be looking for a rationalization for my own ability to trespass boundaries at times.

Just ramblings...thanks, PP.

Hops

[Hopalong]

Wow, Jona. I am awed.

I think.

Did you ever worry that you took it too far?

I mean, where's da love?

(But a part of me shouts Yeah! when I read it. Not so much the money part...I always bend over backward to make sure that I don't use my gender to take advantage of men. It feels wrong. At the same time, I've never been able to earn an equal dollar to men in similar professions. Sigh.)

Thanks for posting this, it sparks some thinking!

Hops

[Jona]

Hop,

Everything I wrote above was done in a respectful and loving manner.  This is not about being snooty or  mean to anyone.  It is not about being disrespectful.  It is about being firm about what you want and how you want to be treated. It is about having respect for yourself.  Believe me there is plenty of room for loving and having fun.  Many men today are accustomed to being chased and catered to that they are in the habit of just sitting back and being lazy.  They don't have to work for anything and they don't appreciate what they haven't worked for.

 

[pennyplant]

What I'm wondering is if other people think that "rejecting neglect" is an example of boundary-setting... It seems sort of like a flipping over of what I usually think about boundaries, which normally are about creating healthy separateness. Yet I am talking about learning how to refuse to entangle myself with people who are OVER separate, or uninterested in connection.

I'm starting to think that life is too short to spend my deeper energies with people who would always be semaphoring "don't be close, I don't want to be intimate." Yet I'm concerned too that I might be looking for a rationalization for my own ability to trespass boundaries at times.

Just ramblings...thanks, PP.

Hops

In all my advising I forgot to answer your question!!

I think that your "ability to trespass boundaries at times" is a separate issue from refusing entanglement with those who are over-separate.  I believe that both are aspects of setting boundaries.  I can think of times when I have trespassed someone else's boundaries.  It has happened for various reasons most of which I think have to do with the particular situation or maybe just thoughtlessness on my part or mixed signals from the other person.  Maybe sometimes assuming that other people are as wishy washy about boundaries as I am.

For you to decide that you will not get involved with a person who is neglectful or not as invested, that seems like a real decision about your real boundaries.  That seems like progress to me.  Like valuing yourself.  It is real reciprocity.  The other person has to reach out, has to want to.  It ensures that you do not become overly responsible.  It requires communication.  They have to reach into themselves and let you know what's going on with them.

I think you have had a very insightful and important idea here.  Useful too.   

I'd go with it.

Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

what truly matters is that I'm committed to his spirtual growth, long term, and he is committed to mine.  That means we're both working to make the other better and happier--better than either of us were alone. 

Bean has the key to it right here.  How everyone goes about this will vary.  I ..... kind of lucked into it.  Sometimes my husband and I just stuck it out, stubbornly, miserably.  Bean, you really had to learn some stuff and then put it into "action".  To me, that seems really hard, really risky in some ways.  Maybe there were times when you thought, maybe I shouldn't have let that one go.  So, I think that had to be hard many times.  Lots of people think the way I did things was "romantic" or "sweet".  Well, it wasn't.  Most 18-year-old parents don't stay married to each other forever.  So, it was hard for us as far as too much responsibility too soon.

Some people who I know are looking:  they seem to be completely missing out on the mutual spiritual growth part, the main part, in my opinion.  I know I advised about the material aspects as a way of gauging mutuality.  But that is NOT so important that it comes down to saying, "I'm going to have trouble making my bills next winter, I need a man before then."  (Yep, direct quote from one of my co-workers.)  One of my relatives told me she is a good potential wife because she is so capable and can take care of herself, what man wouldn't want that?  I told her I think that men may want to feel needed.  She said she didn't think so.  I'm married and she is not--maybe I know something she doesn't know?????  Again, feeling needed, a spiritual aspect of relationships.  Really, really important.

Hops, this is a good discussion.  There's a lot here.  You're definitely on the right track.

PP

[Hopalong]

Wow, you guys.
Thank you.

Jona, I believe you. Thanks for the expansion...I'm visualizing, practicing!
Penny, thanks for seeing that I have actually made a positive change. It feels very good to know this...even though it took me into my 50s to get it. I REALLY get it...thanks to the last Nbf, who used my time, talents and energies to further his career and every whim, then dumped me overnight. I am SO grateful not to be with this man, that in hindsight I can see him as a gift!
Bean, SUCH wisdom. Thank you seriously very much for taking the time to spell out the evolution of your thinking in such details. This really is energizing and inspiring and leads to excellent visualization.

Now...next challenge is to figure out how the heck to meet a nice fella. I've forgotten how to flirt!

Happy Saturday, all. (With Mom temporarily incarcerated in the nursing home, this would be a golden night for me to go scampering out on a manhunt, but I have zero interest in the bar scene. I'll be off to church again tomorrow...but tonight it's me and my DVDs.)

Hugs, and I'd be glad if this thread kept on going...I KNOW there are great relationship realizations aplenty on here!

Hops

[mum]

Jona, I loved your concise explanation to Hops. I found nothing cold in your attitude, but instead looked at each example you gave and basically, your actions seemed based on a strong foundation of self respect. No wonder you are happily  married.
Hops, I can tell you from several million of the opposite experiences, Jona has it down. It's not a formula, it's self respect.

[Hopalong]

Yes, Mum...I do see Jona's sincerity and intent. Just had to sit with it a bit.

I especially like the "no hang-out dates" concept, Jona. I think one of my major, major fantasies of happiness is the cozy "hanging out" idea...but when you separate that out as a type of date, pre-commitment, I can see why it could encourage a man to take your affections casually.

thanks again,
Hops

[Jona]

Hop,

I was 60 years old before I really got it.

Don't overlook the on-line dating sites for meeting men.  You have to weed through them and there is a whole technique for this kind of meeting men.

1.  Never answer a man's ad.  Let them contact you.
2.  Don't get stuck in e-mailing back and forth.  Some men seem to just want to e-mail.
3.  When you receive an e-mail use the site itself to reply.  If the man doesn't have a picture up, don't correspond any more until he sends you one.
4.  If you find one that sounds interesting, give him your phone number (preferably a mobile phone.)
5.  If he calls you, let him take the lead in asking you out.  This is not really a date.  It is a meeting.  If he wants to take you out to dinner, suggest coffee instead.  A dinner date is too long.  You could be stuck for two hours in a miserable situation.
6.  Since this is not a date, you drive your own car to where you are having coffee.  Keep this meeting short--half an hour to 45 minutes.  You end it first--you have somewhere else you need to be.  (Do this even if you really, really like him.)
7.  Wait to see if he calls you for a date.
8.  If he doesn't call, don't take it personally.  You just may not be his type.
9.  If you don't like him, end of story.
10. Don't tell a man your whole life story in the very beginning.

There are some really good guys on on-line dating.

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya Hoppy hon

There's a few things I would like to share with you on this.  I'm a bit short of time so apologise I haven't read everyone's responses.  Tomorrow is my in-laws 50th wedding anniversary.  How awesome is that.  We've just been to church where they were mentioned in the mass.  It's so inspiring for me to see a couple who are still close, and talk and hold hands after 50 years together.  How did they get there?  They have 9 children... they've been through good times, hard times, and yet they are still together.  What's their secret?  I think it's appreciation.  They still say thank you to each other.  Two little words hey.

I've said before but I am a believer in "you can't change anyone else, only yourself and your reactions".  Asking a partner to be more considerate, more helpful, less nasty etc etc etc is trying to change them to suit you.  I agree with I think it was PP that said, be clear in the beginning.

There's one more bit I would like to add.  I have a friend in her late 30's who has been on a few dates with guys she met off the internet.  The last one she said "you wouldn't believe it, I was listening to him and not a single thing was his fault.  I won't be making an effort to meet up with him again".  My friend is someone who hasn't checked out this website, who is pretty healthy in my opinion.  And straight away she picked up on it and said to herself "no, I'm better than this, this guy isn't for me".

Anyway, I have to dash... we're off out for a meal to celebrate the in-laws 50th anni now. 

Take care

Love H&H xx

[pennyplant]

(With Mom temporarily incarcerated in the nursing home, this would be a golden night for me to go scampering out on a manhunt, but I have zero interest in the bar scene. I'll be off to church again tomorrow...but tonight it's me and my DVDs.)

Hopsy, I know many people who have met their lifelong partner at church.  The bar scene is so fake and so charged.  I mean, everybody's drunk for one thing!!   

Last night my husband and I went to see Apollo Cinema's release of four Oscar-nominated short documentaries.  Several times I thought to myself, of the very few men I have met in my life who I felt interested in and who might have had a slight interest in me, I could think of only one besides my husband who might have sat through these documentaries with me and got as much out of it as he did watching with me.  And I sure wouldn't have wanted to miss those movies last night because I was stuck instead with some guy who would rather have gone to the casino or a bar instead.  Not that we never go to bars!  But I'm glad I have someone who will do real things with me because he wants to.

Don't ever do something just because you might meet a man there.  But do interesting things and maybe one of the men who is also doing those things will be a keeper.  My relative who thinks she's a good catch because she is so capable and independent, moved across an entire state because she knew there were statistically more available men in the new city.  Well, she's been there two years and hasn't met anybody yet.  She needs to quit being a huntress after prey.

I know that's not what you're doing.  I'm just saying, if you have doubts that you're not trying hard enough, or trying the right things, doubt no more.  You're building something important here--a strong spirit.  There are no short cuts.  I believe your strong spirit is more likely to draw another strong spirit your way than anything else you could do.

Pennyplant

[mum]

The bar scene is so fake and so charged.  I mean, everybody's drunk for one thing!!

Great point Penny!!!  Having had two (yeah, I am a slow learner) marriages to N's for whom drinking is paramount in their "psychic pain management" (like that?) I would avoid meeting people who are drunk, or while drunk. I think being on the same plane so to speak is a better way to start....

Bean, excellent point on the paying, too. I know my husband wouldn't so much mind paying, but he is a feminist (really), and wouldn't think the woman was his type.