Simple Question, Complicated Answer

[steve]

Do they know what they are doing?

Please reply!

[pennyplant]

Wow, you're right, it's a complicated answer.

This is just my opinion based on a couple of Ns that I am not related to.  People who overwhelmed me at work.

I believe they "know" what they are doing but they are doing it to serve whatever they perceive THEIR NEEDS to be at that time.  I believe they think these perceived needs are far greater and more pressing than any need anyone else could have at the same time.  It is too bad for us that we don't just "cooperate" properly, and to them, it's probably our own fault that we get so hurt.  I guess I believe that they think they "outrank" everybody else.

Even though I think they know on some level what they are doing, I also think they do not dwell on it at all.  They just accept their behavior as inevitable or a part of life or something you made them do and barely think about it at all.  They can be reminded at times of what effect they have had on someone, but instead of feeling guilty and either avoiding you or behaving meekly or trying to appease you, they will instead make a dig of some sort.  Maybe that is the punishment we deserve for making them feel guilty?  So, that tells me they know.  But it doesn't make them behave any better.  Very immature conscience?  Very immature emotional systems?  It gets murky for me to really try and understand it.  I just sort of collect evidence of behaviors and look for patterns.  The patterns I have seen lead me to believe they know what they are doing.  I just think they understand it differently than most people do.  Especially us recipients of the hurtful behavior.

I bet the people with N parents, such as you have, will have many more ideas on this.  My Ns do not live in my house.  I no longer have to be with them everyday at work.  The resulting distance has allowed me time to think and try to make sense of what they do and what may cause or motivate them.  This distance is truly priceless for me.  With the distance I have been able to get a handle on the depression that results from my relationships with these kinds of people.    I have also been able to see that, while it wasn't my fault, I did things which "fed" the problem.  Now I'm learning how not to do those things.

Pennyplant

[Hopalong]

Hi Steve,
I'm with Penny. I think Ns know what they're doing in that they are perfectly capable of seeing that one of their targets is reacting with distress, pain, or frustration.

What I think they don't know is that what they are doing has meaning.

It MEANS, to non-Ns, that they are behaving cruelly.

It MEANS, to Ns, imho, only that we are reacting in ____ ways. They observe it, they are often quite capable of seeing that we have reacted in response to what they did...

But our pain or fury has no weight that registers within them. It's not a compelling consequence, our distress. It is a consequence...but it has no emotional or moral weight that would drive them to change. Our reaction is something to observe, to endure, and possibly make a superficial or temporary response to ... but it is not anything that has weight, that would spur them to change.

It is simply unecessary for them to change. That's part of their disorder.

Non-Ns, who hurt someone very badly, and more to the point, UNFAIRLY? Once that dawned on us, we'd likely feel a wave of genuine guilt. If we could, we would apologize or make some sincere gesture in order to express our real regret. (When an N apologizes, it kind of feels like someone is reciting a phrase in Swahili off their Berlitz tape.)

So even if they do know what they're doing, and I believe most Ns do, that does not lead to change, because they simply don't feel the impulse to. It's just not in their wiring. It's not WITHOLDING anything from us, it (deep compassion, the kind of conscience plus empathy that would trigger change in how they treat us) is ABSENT. It is simply not there.

That's why they are known to be so immutable.

Hops

[butterfly]

Hops,

you wrote:  ". . . possibly make a superficial or temporary response to ... but it is not anything that has weight, that would spur them to change."  So, has it been your experience that any seeming change is just superficial and not really a change at all and therefore change is not plausible?  Has anyone out there seen an N change with the help of therapy?  or is this just a pipedream? 

Butterfly

[Hopalong]

I have known Ns in therapy but mostly not. And those Ns I know who have done therapy don't seem to have become happy or made anyone else happy. I think the essential N reflexes are very unlikely to change...but I'm still glad if they do therapy when they are suffering. They do suffer, they are human. So maybe a smart T listening makes them feel less isolated. (That one-way listening can be very appealing to an N, because a T can offer compassion without being harmed, whereas someone in an intimate relationship with an N has to be very careful not to enable it.)

But whether an N ever did therapy or not, I wouldn't be hanging around hoping that this person would be deepy transformed in their way of relating to me. Maybe a few more apologies would be sent my way, but that's crumbs.

Some people can live with a person close to them who has a very limited emotional repertoire. And with some people who are N-ish, but to a lesser degree, there can still be pretty good relationships, I think.

I'm just no longer willing to be part of the experiment. Life's too short.

Maybe someone else knows of a true N-transformation story...there must be some....

Hops

[debkor]

:)Hi Steve,


Oh yes, yes, yes,,,,,,,, they know.  I agree with penny plant 100%.   I couldn’t of said it better.  You know , my nh’s T said to him you always hurt the family first.   Your a phony to everyone else.   Do you know this lame brain said to me today (nh).  . ( Dead Serious)  like it was some kind of intelligent wonderful  thing.  Now honey you know what T said.  I hurt the family not everyone else.  The rest are innocent.  You know I burst out laughing.  He was almost funny.  Only he was serious.   
I had a little fun myself today.  You know payback can be so rewarding sometimes. I forgot what web site I looked at but I used it today.
I told him he was boring me to death and he was of average intelligence *not stupid* but like most people.  I said how can a 51 year old(he is 50) and I know it, just made  him a year older (and yes, he kept correcting me that he was 50 as he looked in the mirror) be so boring when they lived this many years.   Then I went got my haircut, lightened it with blonde and bought some really bright red lipstick.  He looked like he wanted to cry.   I had not  had a hair cut in a year and ran out of lipstick.  He called me self-centered. (lol)  I responded *ya about time for me eh*    Yes he knew exactly what he wanted to accomplish but it backfired on him.

[pennyplant]

Now honey you know what T said.  I hurt the family not everyone else.  The rest are innocent. 

That is an amazing insight.  I bet he was being quite truthful.  He probably really believes that.  And I wonder if he told T that.
How would you ever get past a belief system like that to ever think there was a need to change?  He has total justification for acting the way he does.  Mind-boggling.

Pennyplant

[Jona]

My n-mother could say the most hurtful things.  She knew perfectly well that she was being  hurtful but she felt justified.  She said what she said because it was "the truth."  She felt entitled to say any nasty thing she wanted.  IF someone complained to her about what she said she would respond, "Well, it's the truth."  If they countered that with, "But it's mean to say things like that and it is not the truth."  She would act like, "Soooooo.  What's the problem?"