He's FINALLY getting a taste of the bad stuff.

[movinon]

Hi all -

I just HAD to share this.

I just got an e-mail from my lawyer's office asking if I was going to file jointly with stbxH and I replied that I was planning to file seperate.

The reply came back from his lawyer's office:


Quote
If you file jointly, there may be a refund to split, but if you file separately, Mr. Butthead may owe $4,000.00.  Do you want to file jointly or separately?


Hmmm- hard choice......

Maybe if he has to pay Uncle Sam, he'll be willing to try to settle this.  Probably not, but I don't intend to do him any more favors.  It may sound malicious, but I'm about 20K in the hole so far.

Life is looking a little fairer today.

Movinon

[Sela]

Hiya Movinon:

I want to launch into a shpeeeel about the evils of revenge but the truth is probably lot's of people would be feeling similar to the way you may be feeling right now, if they were in your shoes.  So just in case there are any globs of toxic shame oozing from anywhere........

I wonder what he would do, if the choice were his to do you the favour?  Haha! Silly question, I know.

I hope it does get settled soon for you and I'm glad life is looking fairer too.

  Sela

[write]

Hi Movinon

Life is both simultaneously fair and unfair; both can be a gift in the longer term, though we don't always know that when we're still
angry and hurt.

Revenge?
I don't know.
I looked up the definition of revenge for inspiration and it said: pay-back for a perceived wrong or injury.

My problem then with revenge- what when my perception too is off?

I'm angry and hurt for one thing. A lot. My childhood sucked. It was so unfair I don't even rate it as a childhood!

But also~
why was I with a man -I married him twice for goodness sake!- who behaved so erratically and inconsistently?
( answer: because I behaved inconsistently too, all the time because I would not accept my bipolar illness )

why did I tolerate his anger outbursts?
( because I had them too- though they were usually so passive-agressive an outsider wouldn't notice; but he was sensitised to certain feelings...and after a few years of marriage I could manipulate that to perfection, whilst always being 'in the right' because I never hit anyone, never smashed anything, never wrecked an event.

He was my long-term partner because I got this 'justified anger' outlet I clearly needed.
That is hard to read even now. That at some point I realised enough to know it was horribly unhealthy and justified staying to act out all that  stuff.

Tonight at baseball various moms were bemoaning their kids, and I said " our kids turn out like us. Whatever we say- they learn from how we behave". Interesting, some parents heard and understood that, a couple seemed perplexed and one woman looked angry and hurt.

I went against all the internet advice about treating an N mean or they won't respond.

That's often an N talking- because they can't project anything kind or positive right now, because that is their fantasy, that someone will come along and halt their cruel chaos, make them real. Through power.

( Think how an N would be- a website; total control over  their false entity )

They see that person as powerful and omnipotent- it's their parent in another form.
Parents have more power than kids....cruel parents had way more power than anything.
Cruelty can become a way of life...justifying it, expecting it, excusing yourself because of it.

Only an out and out psycopath with no genuine emotions or remorse will respond to cruelty consistently- because that's all they see in the emotional field:  use or be used; attack or be destroyed.

Anyway-

I spent three expensive years in therapy with a psychologist and 2 psychiatrists ( the first I left because she had a N streak herself! ) worked out all my own mental health problems and issues and treated my ex kindly as I could whilst setting high boundaries at first.

He had to call before he came over; knock and wait to be admitted; provide whatever money we needed; go to therapy.

Otherwise- and I remember this particular row very much, when he got in my face and said " I'll take our son, you'll have nothing'; I was too far gone to even battle any more- I told him " YOU DO what YOU HAVE TO DO. And you take the consequences of that. If you want our boy- he's yours. Go raise him alone, if you think he will thank you for it."

There was no fight left in me- only spirit and a sudden realisation that whatever happened the universe would take care of me, I would survive or not, it was something out of my hands.

Maybe it sounds silly to you, but that was the first time in my life I let go.

The intense trauma of my childhood had made me a person who tried to control all outcomes, not often in an unpleasant way, but I had no openness to any new feelings, new ways of doing things, new ways of viewing myself and my past trauma.

That row socked it to me good: G_d's will not mine ( and I didn't even believe in any god! )

Of course- he went to therapy himself, to a good psychiatrist who is an expert in NPD and she gave him so much confidence to face his wasted self, so many answers, and a positive response to shame. That is all too rare because of the myths of personality disorder, because too many Ns don't realise they can be helped greatly by anti-depressants and therapy, because shame is so much worse to experience than the bad person we really are....

My ex told me last year that almost everything he ever did bad was because of shame he couldn't bear.

When I look at him now, and see his eyes light up, his posture is changed, he can listen.....

I didn't waste my time.

This is of course MY story- I don't know how relevant it is to anyone else.

I share it because of hope. There is a tremendous hope in giving kindness, even if it's " I refuse to hate you despite you deserving it".

Detach.

Survive.

Learn.

Grow.

That's when you can move on ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[movinon]

Okay -

Now I'm more confused than ever....

MO

[write]

what else can anyone tell but their own story?!

People don't like to face the mirror but it's the only way to truly move forward.

Whether we like it or not we are not hopeless helpless victims as adults but continuing to live a faulty pattern of behaviour our lives have adapted from early on to cope.

There's a saying for writers: happiness paints white.
I have noticed lately that people around me don't want to make peace or live happily; they are stuck in criticism, negativity, hatred, doubt.

Does that mean I shouldn't rejoice that my own considerable efforts to heal myself and others in my life have finally paid off?

I don't have any bleak black thoughts ( bloody marvellous for a Bipolar )  I don't think Nism is much different to any other human condition, and I think whenever we intentionally hurt someone else we also damage ourselves.

That's where I'm at, that's who I am. I don't think I've ever been too much different, maybe more mixed-up, more chaotic....but also maybe I don't belong here any more?

Who do I celebrate with? Who here is working towards similar goals?

I want to be HEALTHY. If I'm angry it's not to be hurtful- it's to insist on something, to let someone else know they're trashing my boundaries, being assertive.
I don't want any toxic anger- and that for me means detachment.
From any situation, relationship, person I have become overinvolved with.
I cannot control others; blimey, I can barely control myself.

Detach and start over. Help a N if necessary ( esp if shared parenting ) &/or possible.
Make them listen if they want you in their life.

I don't know much about taxes ( except you're getting late filing! ) but we used this one year
http://www.turbotax.com/

[Hopalong]

Hey, Write.
I'm really glad you're not in a bleak black place. It's wonderful your healing has moved along so well.

I share your goals.

I'm a little confused about what got you going here...but it's good to hear you.

You sounded...exasperated?
Am I understanding?

Anyway, glad things are feeling clear and positive for you.

Hops

[movinon]

Hey Write -

Okay, please excuse me for possibly appearing a little thick today, but I don't get what you are saying.

For the record (or maybe sour grapes or whatever)  I left out the VAST amounts of money he owes me that I am almost positive I will NEVER SEE.  He nearly closed our accounts when we seperated and claims to have used it on the house (but only HE could touch that money b/c of the way he set up the account).  He used it to "fix" a perfectly nice home to get it "ready" to sell.

I had to pay to fix a motorcycle he was ordered to fix and return.  He dropped insurance on my car and a friend of mine totalled it 2 days after I got insured which led to numerous doctor bills and all the stuff associated with the other uninsured motorist that was "in the wrong".

This is just talking about the stuff I KNOW about.  He could, and undoubtedly does, have overseas accounts and other things tucked away that I don't even know about (b/c he used to tuck away when we were married and he is from another country)

So do 2 wrongs make a right?  Damn, I just don't want to be MORAL here.

I took the high road in court and through all these proceedings, and he lied like crazy and came out smelling like roses.  I don't WANT to take the high road with this.....

I don't even KNOW if I'll get anything back.  As I remember last year, we had to PAY, so I think this is yet another lie of his.  We didn't even LIVE together in 2005.  I'm thinking he just wants to be able to claim our D and MY son. (he gets VERY anal about tax stuff).  My children and I are also in a limited partership with my family and my mother ususally pays us the difference.

Just to clarify - I was planning on filing seperately as my lawyer and I spoke about before all of this anyway.

I don't know.

Write, I'm open to and value your feedback.  I'm a big girl.  I can take it.

MO

[mum]

Movinon, I am pretty clueless here as to why what you wrote got people thinking revenge, and I have total respect for what everyone is saying..... I guess what you wrote triggered some memories of people. So I will do the same, and share my thoughts, based on my experience with an N, the courts, legal fees and money.

I do not see what you are talking about as having anything to do with revenge. Just because you see the irony in this whole thing (that you are in the financial hole because of this, etc, and you are making a decision of a financial nature that may also affect him) I heard nothing from you that sounds like YOU are exacting some type of campaign of revenge. This has simply presented itself to you and you see the irony.

Take care of yourself. How many times have you heard this on the board? And yet, when you express the rather dark humor of the situation, it concerns people. I do think that the responses, although based on experience (and a good point, as this is all about individual experience and perception), are honestly concerned about YOU, perhaps going down the dark road of revenge, which is about you getting wrapped up in his negative energy.
That said, I don't believe for one second, that this possibly-helpful-to-YOU-and-your-children situation you describe will take you where you don't need to go, and you know that. I have a lot of respect for you in that area.
But for you to take care of YOURSELF, as well you should, this situation does present LEVERAGE for you, as you said. I experience that same thing continually with my EXN.
He will fight and fight and say it's not about money, but when it comes to disclosing how much he makes, or somehow having his financial picture exposed, he caves in on many levels. THIS IS LEVERAGE.
You must use it, legally and financially and what the heck, even emotionally,  to protect yourself and your children.
If sharing the filing gives you leverage with him to get this whole case finished, why on earth would you not use it? I think it is truly POETIC justice. Really.
And as far as revenge: I appreciate what everyone is saying, as I am sure you do. But you are simply observing a natural consequence playing out.

I will also add that when I divorced my ex 10 years ago, he did a lot of "oh, poor me, I am so sorry, I didn't mean it, I don't deserve anything bad...I can't help it"  as he had done for years immediately after abusing me....(we know this as a classic pattern of abusers) to the point where when these IDEAL situations of leverage and power for me presented themselves (as the one you are in) I DIDN"T take advantage of them, and LET HIM get away with MORE subliminal (read; financial) abuse!!!
And he laughed at me all the way to the bank....as I have not one doubt your ex will too.

Take care of yourself....don't concern yourself that his is some huge moral dilemna (you think he is concerned about you????) and stop listening to that voice that tells you "I come last". 

[movinon]

Hmmm - Thanks Mum

It's interesting what you say about revenge.

I didn't feel like it was revenge either, but I was taking it on.  See how I'm so used to doing that?  As much as I assert myself, sometimes I have trouble sticking to my POV when misunderstood.

Man I second guess myself so much.

perhaps going down the dark road of revenge, which is about you getting wrapped up in his negative energy.

In speaking to my sponsor last night, she was very complimentary on how detached I have become (and she's not excessively complimentary - pretty kick-butt actually).

He will fight and fight and say it's not about money, but when it comes to disclosing how much he makes, or somehow having his financial picture exposed, he caves in on many levels. THIS IS LEVERAGE.

It's ALL about money to him...he's Scottish for christ's sake!  And yes, he HAS refused to disclose his financial details. 

He makes 4X what I make and still refuses to give his D $4 to go on a fieldtrip - "Let your mum pay for that"


I want to thank everyone for replying to this.  I really appreciate the opportunity to look at "my stuff" or at least let it "fester' wthin me for a while.

Movinon

[write]

I guess the bottom line for me is that I believe my being kind and reasonable to this man who hurt me led to a change in him and our family dynamics. I don't know if it would work for anyone else, but it has been a miraculous thing to watch unfolding.

More than that though I am realising something strange- people want to be friends with me more when everythings bad!

My sister will listen to me go off for hours if things are bad, but never wants to know good things about my life.

Another friend I went out with earlier this week- it was so stressful, I just didn't realise until after but she hadn't noticed I'm in a good place; she is dating a man who is cheating on her and so everything went back and forth around that. I guess it's another place I need boundaries, I wanted to help and listen, but I didn't realise 'til the evening that I don't need that intensity

Well- I was just going to mention another friend who is having a bad time, and so I can't talk about nice things which are happening to me!
and she just stopped by right whilst I'm typing and we had a nice chat!

Maybe it's just me, I was always so ignored as a child, I realise now it was my parents way of blanking out the mental illness, which they never acknowledge even now...

Sorry Moveinon, I'm hijackign your thread!

[mum]

Movinon, I could have written this:

"He makes 4X what I make and still refuses to give his D $4 to go on a fieldtrip - "Let your mum pay for that""

Where do these guys come from.....even the 4x my salary is dead on....are you my long lost twin? Geez, sis, funny how we had children with the same selfish moron!!!

a recent example: My ex  agreed to share with me half of a very expensive trip for my son to play in Europe.
Then he dragged my son to the bank and made him pay up half of his half, something he readily admits to be doing. So essentially, I am paying half, my ex is paying a quarter and my son is paying a quarter...
.mind you my son does not have a job, as he rehearses so often, so he has no regular income, save odd music gigs, etc., which he saves  to pay for dates, incidentals, gas, things he wants NOT to ask his parents for money for,  etc...

So now the poor kid has no money for the prom this weekend...so I gave it to him. He feels really bad to ask me for it, as he HAD saved the money, but dad holds his account, and made him take it out..  How this kid is going to come up with a total of $550 on his own  is beyond me.  He already took out the few hundred he had.
So I told my son he could help with some landscaping at my place, which makes him feel less like a leech, but c'mon,  I mean it's his senior year for goodness sake, give him a break.  My attorney was appalled, but it's not illegal to be an a**h***, you know.
It's just so obvious, my ex  would have to be stupid to not know that I will be the one to give my son whatever money he needs, so actually I end up paying way more than half of this trip.  And he makes just soooo much money it's sinful!!
But my ex doesn't see anything but:" I'm keeping all my money, my kids don't get it and better yet, what I don't give the kids, they will have to get from their mother, furthering my punishment of her for leaving me when she got sick of me continually abusing her".....
NAW, I don't think he thinks that far....

Write, I am happy that things turned around for you with your ex.  I stopped holding my breath after 10 years...my ex's healing is not my problem anymore. I wish he would, for his sake, for my children's sake, for the planet's sake, and I send that to him daily, but I cannot do anything "kind" er than move on with my life, leaving him to his own mess (his damaged relationship with his kids).

As far as "foul weather friends" go: that's so interesting. I have a few like that., but less and less as time goes on.
I would venture to say, there are many people I know who simply cannot stand to hear about my ex, what he does, etc....they get too upset, and I think when they see me getting caught up in the dark emotionality of it, it's worrisome to them. And I must admit, a little "bad" stuff is interesting, but I also, do not enjoy a long conversation with someone that is going down down down into a deep abyss of negativity!!
I would much rather acknowledge it (and I am patient with this, as the above just showed how I have to LET IT OUT too!) and then talk of possibilities, not limitations.

[Hopalong]

Hi...
((((MO))))):  you have the wealth of a clean and clear relationship with your child.

I think you'd be super-human not to be at least a little pleased about exN getting hit up for $4K! I mean, we're pretty evolved and wonderful folks here--(I mean that!)--but we're only human. And when youve been hurt that much, there is an ANIMAL part that responds at times and wants to bite back. We can and do override it eventually with a lot of healing, and I am sure you will. You will not always hate this man and one day you'll feel pity and compassion. Now, your wound is fresh.

Write, I believe you and I do marvel at what you've done. I wonder if it might be easier to accomplish that loving forgiving relationship with exN because you have: 1) a lot of inner strength and balance, and 2) someone else in your life to be your intimate partner? (If I remember right, you do...sorry, haven't read back to check.) Either way, it's a wonderful thing. Your patience, forgiveness and strength has given this Nman a chance to become a much better human being. You have truly cracked open a window to his soul and I salute you for it. It's so often just not possible, but you've got a unique set of gifts and circumstances that have created the best possible outcome. Good for you both. (I think forgiveness and kindness are ALWAYS the utlimate goal...it's just that with many Ns, unlike your ex, kindness requires way more distance than is necessary in your circumstances.)

I LOVE what you said at the baseball game. It gives me a clue about what a straight-shooter you are. I would love to go to a game with you!

Mum, about the "weather" friends. That's very very interesting and I think I'll pop up a new thread about it. Thanks for raising this thought.

Hops

[movinon]

Mum -

OMG - Just went shopping for my D's prom dress this past weekend!   So us sisters have twins!!!

Write - I would LOVE to be kind and reasonable with this man.  I hope that some day I can do that w/out getting screwed!.  The truth is that I have given him what he wants.  Just send me a sob story, and here you go.  Her's my power.  He's taken advantage EVERY time.

One day Write.  One day.  But right now hope for his change is a dangerous place for me.  It's what kept me in the quagmire for so long.  (There's hope b/c he's in recovery..There's hope b/c he sponsors others - NOPE)

Where I am at this place and time is reality time.  He will use any opportunity to HURT ME.

That is what got me here.  We were in a "collaborative" divorce process.  I told him and his buddy lawyer that I would totally forget about any of the money issues.  He keeps what he has and I keep what I have (not much) and the slate is clean.  Well, according to the book on splitting and divorcing a BPD, they see this as weakness, not flexibility like a normal person would.  Sure enough, he went for my jugular even worse!

About the fair weather friends, I have some of those and others who want to listen to the good stuff.  I guess I'm getting better at picking friends.  (maybe this means my picker is starting to mend!)

you have the wealth of a clean and clear relationship with your child.

Thanks Hops.  Your words are always so kind and reassuring.

And when youve been hurt that much, there is an ANIMAL part that responds at times and wants to bite back.

Yup!!!!!!!!!!!!  I do think I feel pity for him.  Not sure about the compassion yet (only on really spiritaully-connected days).  I'm not sure about the HATE either.  Nope, don't think I can say I hate him.  It's more like wanting to call him a jack@$$ some days or just STUPID.  Poor man.

Movinon

[wally]

Hi Movinon,

I am sure that my thought maybe old news by now but filing seperately is best for future liability.  My S inlaw filed jointly for all of their marriage.  Divorced now, two months the IRS has knocked on my brothers door and wanted to audit 2000, he tried to avoid them and pissed them off.  Now they are going to audit from 2000 to present.  As it stands now he owes 100k from the year 2000 alone.  Long story short although she is no longer married to him she is going to owe hundreds and thousands of dollars to the IRS because they filed jointly all of those years.  They are soon to take the house that she won in the divorce and she is still going to owe for a long time.  Unfair is a little bit of an understatement, because he was lying to everyone for years it now is coming back to haunt everyone except him, because he is in jail anyways.  I may be way off base here with what you were posting, but depending where the relationship is going seperately is always good.  You should have your own return coming anyways.

for what its worth,

Wally

[mum]

great point on the filing, Wally. My friend was divorcing her (major idiot screwed her over so badly) N, and he suggested they file jointly, and she, still in the position of feeling somewhat sorry for this confused mess of a man she thought she knew for 27 years, agreed. She was still bailing him emotionally and financially, and in retrospect, she would not do the same today...she lost money, and he smiled like the Cheshire cat, which added more salt to her wounds.  Interesting.
Is there a limit on descriptive adjectives in this world? Well, there isn't in my writing, so hope y'all can read that!!
anyway, Movinon, I think the original "duh"  you felt about what you would do was right on!!