Young Narcissists

[Hopalong]

some thoughts to respond to, pick any--

What are the signs of a young narcissist?
At what point are the damaging experiences hardening into Nism? What are the "tells"?
Any other thoughts on how to recognize a young N?
Any thoughts on how to help a young person away from being N if it looks imminent?
How to tell the difference between ordinary adolescent selfishness and Nism?

Childhood Nism--does it exist? Is adolescence a key benchmark?

When is hope gone for Ns? In their 20s? 30s?

Hops

[Portia]

Hiya Hops

this one got me stumped. Don't think I can do this! I thought.....I can't come at this from this angle...I need a person, an image, a description...okay there's a chapter in Why is it always about you? about teenage N - healthy & otherwise. Might get it to 'read inside' from amazon (try searching Hotchkiss and adolescence ?)

For me and you, these questions... I'd say: whole person first, relationships, work, school/college etc - holistic stuff - then start looking for behaviour and thinking and think to myself how's their overall 'mental health' what 'triggers' have they got; where's their empathy, are their views of themselves realistic, views of others accurate? etc

I wouldn't think of N for any particular reason and I don't think it's genetic btw by any stretch of the imagination. The vast majority of disorders just ain't genetic at all (I've been reading again, very dangerous! ). Seriously...there are also a lot worse things. Sociopaths etc. Some Ns give the world much pleasure! Actors musicians etc. Gosh a vote for Ns!!!!!

I've spent way too much time here today. It's got to my logic circuits. Have a great weekend Hops!

[MarisaML]

Well unfortunately I had noticed that my 6 year old nephew is showing signs of becoming an N.  If you have read my long long story of what my sister-in-law did to my family well this is her son.  Before the latest incident I had let my children go spend the day at her house.  My 2 year old daughter fell down their stairs... hardwood floor stairs.  My 2 boys (ages 4 and 7) were upset about it.  And told me what happened with a lot of emotions and then they told me that Logan laughed.  He laughed.  That's not a 'normal' reaction.  I feel wholeheartedly that this child doesn't even have a chance.  And I KNOW that it wasn't passed on genetically from them anyways.  He's adopted.  But he does act a lot like his Mom (adoptive).  And he spends most of his time with his N Mom and N Grandmother.  TG he has a more normal Dad and Grandfather.  But I wonder if it's too late for him.  We won't be around his Mom anymore that is a sure thing.  I wonder if I should allow my children to be around this child.  He does hit them.  And I've wondered if he might really hurt them.  I don't worry as much when my 7 year old is with his younger sibblings because he protects them from their cousin.  Is it wrong to keep them away from the cousin?

[moonlight52]

Hi Guys Wouldn't a person have to be a least 21 to 25 before a label such as narcissist be considered. I mean really a N is
not going for treatment .I see the real evidence for a N IS THE PEOPLE AROUND THAT PERSON AND HOW THEY ARE EFFECTED.For any one under 30 even I would say its hard too tell.
Moon

[moonlight52]

Hi Storm  and All     I just so want to believe kids can not be so empty .But I do not know about this Asperger thing .The difference between a N and Aspergers is lack of empathy .So I will read about it.I have been listening
and learning from everyone here on the board.
Lots of Love
Moonlight

[mum]

Children are, by nature, narcissistic. They do not have the life experience to determine the "other". There are specific developmental stages relating to "normal" ages at which children understand the concept of other's needs, consience, etc. I am not a developmental psychologist, but I have read a little, as a parent and a teacher. I think that early on, children see themselves as the center of the universe. Little by little they learn that this is not true.  In adolescence, (the second toddlerhood!!) most people are becoming who they will be in terms of who they present to the world (don't go by how they are with parents!!!).  However, I think the person with a narcissitic personality disorder, or at least the one I know currently giving me such crap....has an arrested adolescence! They never get beyond that. They function well enough to pass for normal, so "intervention" is impossible to determine a need for, but their lack of consience, or ability to empathize is frozen in the MEMEME track of the young child/adolescent.

I am sure there is a lot out there about this.

Listen, I see kids who act just horribly toward others as kindergarteners, who by 4th grade are just wonderful people. Then again, I see some who are never going to change, because the parents are NEVER going to let them know when they are wrong. "A**holes in training", I call them.  Parental values that simply don't include being a good person.  Denial as a parent creates some pretty bad behaving people. Then again, I've seen GREAT parenting...all to no avail, with a whacked out kid... but it's more the former than the latter, IMO..
There just doesn't seem to be a one size fits all answer in this life, is there???

[mum]

I see your point, Stormy.
I will try to relate this to my profession, if you don't mind the analogy. There are children who are innately talented in the arts. I have seen children who blow my mind with how they already percieve the world with such pure and unbelievably advanced concepts and skills. This is referred to as "talent" (a word I sometimes choke on).  But I have also seen other children, given the right encouragement and instruction and environment, "find" their "talent" and ability in art and become such amazing artists, and it didn't "come in the original package". Ironically, or maybe NOT so ironically, I see some amazingly gifted artists who have autism, asperger's, learning disabilities, etc.,  in other areas. (God, I love my job!!!!! but I digress....)
So, I think it's possible, for those children who don't have the "look" of a kind hearted person, to change and grow and become a caring person, given the right situation....and maybe even the predisposition or genetic makeup for it, however well disguised at first.
And have I seen children who scare me? Who I would really NOT want to know when they are older, or have access to a handgun or a car? YES!!! But EVEN so, (and I have a kid right there in my mind now....from class today) I cannot honestly say that I don't believe this kid has a chance to change and find joy instead of misery in his little life.  He still might. WE certainly want him to (while we watchfully protect the other children!!). But he is moving. Just when we saw a little softness. Oh well.

Interesting talk. Thanks

[reallyME]

mum

However, I think the person with a narcissitic personality disorder, or at least the one I know currently giving me such crap....has an arrested adolescence! They never get beyond that. They function well enough to pass for normal, so "intervention" is impossible to determine a need for, but their lack of consience, or ability to empathize is frozen in the MEMEME track of the young child/adolescent.

This is Jodi exactly.  She is stuck in adolescence, although occasionally she will go right into teenage years.  She loves taking people teenagers into her home so she can play "mini-me" with them, if you get my drift...takes them for a "girly day" so they can have excactly what she has.  She did this with me...took me to buy fake nails and then did my hair, etc.  She even tried to get one lady's daughter to call the courts to emancipate her from her own mother!  It's insane and it's sad.  I loved who I thought Jodi was and to be honest, I still do and I sometimes wish she really was who she portrayed herself to be...if she was, she would be my best friend to this very day.

~ReallyME

[MarisaML]

I understand what some of you mean by that children go thru stages.  I kind of expect a 2 year old to hit, bite and pinch.  All my children did that and well 1 is still in that stage.  I have a lot of people who try to tell me how to parent and that I should be extra hard on the 2 year old for that kind of behavior.  I don't see the point in that.  I mostly talk to her as I did my boys at that age.  I tell her 'no no'.  And I know that she will eventually stop.  My 4 year old doesn't hit or bite.  And my 7 year old has few behavioral problems at school.  That's why I'm concerned about the 6 year old cousin.  The N mother and N grandmother have him most of the time and they don't 'see' anything he does as being bad.  They have spoiled him completely.  It isn't his fault and I do feel sorry for him.  This is what happens when children aren't held accountable for the bad things they do.  And I don't think we can classify him as an N yet.  But it's coming. It is abnormal for a 6 year old to hit all the time.  Especially children much younger and smaller.  It is abnormal for a 6 year old to lack empathy.  My 7 year old boy has trouble crushing a bug because he feels sorry for it.  None of my children are cruel to animals.  And the only times my boys hit and fight are among the 3 siblings.  Except for my 7 year old never never hits my 2 year old.  It is very normal for siblings to fight sometimes.  

But I disagree that children can't ever be considered to be N's.  Most psychopaths (if not all of them) exhibit very cruel behaviors at an early age.  Cruelty to animals and to other kids is some of the earliest signs of a psychopath.  I've watched 'Iceman' interviews where he talks about being a kid and he was pretty much a psychopath at the age of 10 or 11.  He would take cats and throw them into an incinerator just because he was bored.  He felt nothing.  He WAS a psychopath.  So my thoughts are that if you can be a psychopath at 10 years old than you can probably be a Narcissist too.  They're both personality disorders.

yes, they start young. They have to, because their personalities are so stunted and infantilized that they must have been arrested at a very early stage in their development.
.
Good point, Stormchild.  

[aspau]

Sugarre -
After reading your post I'd like to add my point of view here. Asperger's disorder is the opposite of npd. Asperger's shy away from attention and in contrast to npders do have a self. They will not be out to hurt people, in fact are very lovable.

[Hopalong]

Wow. thanks for all these deeply thoughtful replies.
Very, very interesting.

I think what was behind my post was a bit of a shadow worry about whether my D might be N. She's being AWFULLY "entitled." Then again, she always had a very compassionate heart for the underdog. Her cruelest behavior is, at times, toward me. But that may be her delayed maturation...the rough time she went through when her dad died. Things like that.

Part of it is that my N (unquestionably N) mother helped raise her so had a huge influence. My D says she "loathes narcissism", which was good to hear. And I know some of her entitlement (feeling entitled to too much of my money, for example) is because I gave too much. She's also a total animal lover (but then, so was Hitler).

I'm not saying my D is Hitler!  Just observing that sentimental attachment toward animals doesn't guarantee consistently kind character toward human beings.

Anyway, I basically believe her core self does have empathy (she always chose the loneliest kids to be her friend, volunteered at a camp for burned children, is kind and gentle with the elderly, etc.) I think I need firmer boundaries with her sometimes, and to let her be independent financially, because my wallet's drained.

But I don't think she's really "an N." I think she has Nspots (as I do too).

Thanks for all the amazing input. I think the questions still hang, but it's good to think about.

Hops (a treat to be away a few days and come back to such a busy board...even though I'll never catch up reponding! )

[mum]

hey, hops! I think a good rule of thumb as to how our children really are, is this question: How are they outside of our relationship with them? Because a kid is never going to really spend the rest of their lives living with mom or dad, and parent/child dynamics are sooooo different than how they are in the "real world".
As a teacher, I have parents marvel at the wonderful things I say about thier kid.....it's like they suspected the kid is ok, but he runs them ragged at home.... I also hear such amazing things about my own children, being helpful, working extra for others.....and they won't lift a finger at home unless I freak out, it seems!!!
I'd never let how my daughter treats me be an indicator of how she will relate to others! (not that I let her boundary smash all day long, either).

[reallyME]

Hops:  My D says she "loathes narcissism", which was good to hear. And I know some of her entitlement (feeling entitled to too much of my money, for example) is because I gave too much. She's also a total animal lover (but then, so was Hitler).

My daughter has N spots too, with the entitlement stuff.  Glad your daughter said she LOATHED N'ism, cause mine, when I tested her with the online test, said "SO?"  when her results showed N

[MarisaML]

Hopalong, it does sound like your daughter is not an N.  But you figured that out for yourself.  Compassion is a good sign she's not.  She may be a little spoiled, but I'm not judging because my kids are spoiled too.  She'll probably grow out of that hormone enraged teenage state of mind and be a fine human being like you. 

ReallyMe, there's a good chance your D isn't an N either.  Kids are so filled with emotions and confusion at times that sometimes they like to dabble in the darker ways of thinking.  And they are often times selfish.  I went through that too.  On the outside I was a raging lunatic teen but on the inside I was very hurt.  Sometimes people put a wall up to protect how vulnerable they really are and young girls are experts at this.  Along about the time I was 18 I started 'seeing' myself for the first time.  I saw that everyone else thought I was mean and angry all the time.  When what I felt was depression and pain.  My Biological Dad left us years ago and there was a lot of hurt there.  There was a lot more factors to consider too but I don't want to bore you.  Where is that Online test at?

[reallyME]

http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personality_disorder_test.mv   <---for Marissa or whomever wants it