Hello

[adrift]

Hi,


   I've been reading here for awhile and decided to join so I can post.  I'm not totally sure yet if either of my parents were N's, but I can totally relate to being "voiceless".  I think both of my parents were just really caught up in their own crap and though they loved me, they couldn't get passed their own issues in order to be loving, supportive parents.  In fact, I've read on here already where others have posted what is/was true for me also: I thought everyone grew up like I did which means being pretty much ignored and told how and what to do and almost never having my needs taken into question.  My dad saw me as a kid until the day he died and he never really tried to hide his disappointment in me.  In fact, when I looked at him in the casket at the funeral home I felt this overwhelming sense of disappointment eminating from him to me.  I know he was dead and I don't believe in ghosts, but the feeling was so overwhelming that I just stood there and cried because I had been a failure in his eyes.  In retrospect, I can see where I was a disappointment to him in various ways, but as a mother of 3,  I also realize that our kids will disappoint us but as parents we shouldn't convey the "I'm disappointed in you" message to them 24/7.  Part of the reason my dad was so disappointed in me was in how I did or didn't help out as he and my mom got older and as they got sick.  AS the only child, it fell to me to fill any and all gaps (thank God for my aunt who helped me out tremendously).  When my mom was really sick with cancer, my dad expected me to come sit with her all night, every night (and she was awake hourly and needing medication, etc) and I did it for weeks, but I had three kids at home at the same time---when was I supposed to sleep?? Thank goodness my oldest (age 13 at the time)  was able to watch the younger two so I could sleep some during the day.  There were mornings when driving back to my home, it was all I could do to stay awake.  Yet my dad wasn't ever grateful. He got really mad when I put my foot down one night and told him that he HAD to have some more steps taken medically to treat her---this happened one night when I was helping her to the potty and her legs buckled and we both fell. Neither of us got hurt, but I wasn't able to physically manage her anymore and I told him that from then on, whenever she had to get up during the night I would be waking him as well in order to help me.  That really ticked him off.  But it took that for him to allow hospice to place  a catheter.   One night I showed up and he was screaming at my mother about something (can't remember) and actually threatened to leave her!!!!! (( As far as I know, this was very uncharacteristic for him--the threatening to leave part---but I think he kinda staged the whole thing for me to see in order for me to feel sorry for him or something.  He loved for people to pity him, but he would engage their pity in deceiving ways.))  Anyway, that night  I followed him to his bedroom and told him that I had better not ever hear him talk to her like that again and we really got into a heated argument. I guess he was so stressed by her illness and his fear of being alone when she died,  that he kinda snapped at her that night. Now  my mom had always been a difficult person, but by the time she was stricken with cancer she actually became more calm so I don't know what set him off that night. 

Gee, didn't mean to ramble so.  Anyway, both my parents are gone now and I'm finding that I'm doing things rather uncharacteristic for me.  I was never allowed to live my life when my dad was alive (he was the last to die, he died about 3 years ago) because even after I was grown, married and had 3 kids, my dad kept a watchful eye on me/us.  He didn't mind giving us his opinion on everything and if I had done anything wrong while he was alive, he would have known and I would have heard about it.  Which means I walked a clean, straight line until his death and quite surprisingly to me, after his death I began to change. Maybe I've been finding my "voice"???  To cut to the chase, there's a guy I've been almost having an affair with for the last two years.  That sounds crazy doesn't it.  How can you "almost have an affair" for two years??  It's a long story, but the fact that even though this "thing" (whatever it is ) has been brewing for two years,   I'm still very attracted to him and at times it's gotten to the point of obsession.   I can't seem to sever that tie with him and I saw him today and the look in his eyes tells me he's still interested, I think. (Sometimes he's hard to read)  I have a good husband, 3 kids, a wonderful home, a good reputation.  What is wrong with me??  Oh, and the real reason for all this information is to say that I have this pit of loneliness inside of me that can't seem to be filled.  It's been there on and off all my life, but sometimes it almost swallows me and I think that may be why I want the attention from the other guy.  It's like I can't get enough attention from normal means, I have to have some "back up" attention, or at least the possibility of it. 

I'll stop. Sorry to go on so. 


Adrift

[Portia]

Welcome Adrift ,

you’re okay as you are and always were, what messages parents give kids! I’m sorry about your father. Just popped in here and can’t stay but want to say, you’re very much not alone here and I hope you won’t be lonely either. Lots of folks have endured similar parents; you’re okay and you didn’t go on so, you can talk as much as you like here!

Have to go for now, take care and tell more please, if you want to. P

[Brigid]

Welcome Adrift,
You certainly will find many kindred spirits here who have experienced that same empty childhood that then creates an emptiness in adulthood that takes years to unravel.

Both of my parents are also gone now.  My father was the n and mother the enabler.  I might as well be an only child, as my brother (10 years younger) and I have no relationship at all. 

I do understand and have great sympathy for your lonliness, despite being a wife and mother.  I would really emplore you, however, to not act on the potential affair.  I guarantee it will not fix your problem and will probably only make it 10 times worse when the guilt and remorse sets in.  Affairs touch so many people and destroy many relationships--not just the marriages involved.  Do you really want to risk losing the love and respect of your children, friends, other family members--not to mention potentially ruining what you say is a good marriage.

I really don't want to sound like I'm preaching, but I have lived through the aftermath of an affair (my xh's, not mine) and it is devastating.  I'm fine now, but my children still struggle with what their father did (and is still doing) and how to have a relationship with him.

Have you considered seeing a therapist?  That could be a huge blessing for you right now.  Perhaps you are dealing with some serious depression which could be helped with medication.  Please consider these alternatives before acting on anything that you would live to regret.

I hope you will continue to share your story as you feel comfortable.  Many of us can relate, I'm sure.

Blessings,

Brigid

[Hopalong]

Glad you drifted here, Adrift:

From my experience, I'll say: Brigid is wise. She helped steer me away from a similar wreck when I needed a compass and I am very grateful. Not to mention all the other wise voices here. I am glad you found this place, and I hope you'll be as stunned as I am by the richness of learning and support here.

A thought: is it possible that if you act out this affair, that you'll be acting out an old script? Almost as though you'd be internalizing that severe parent, so one day you could wake up and say to yourself: I am disappointed in you.

My other thought is you have a fire and energy to pour out so much...that sounds to me like the sort of fire that might need a creative outlet. Do you have one? Art, music, gardening...something that gets at your inner self and coaxes it out to explore?

Hopalong

[pennyplant]

Hi Adrift,

This will be short and quick because I'm "saving my energy" for a thread I'm working on and plan to do a lot of posting tomorrow.  But your post here rings a bell with me because the "sort of" affair is a way I have acted out my own voicelessness.  I have talked about it a little bit on some other threads--I think one is called "being in love with two men at once."  Don't know if that thread would address anything you're talking about here or not.  It's probably a couple  months old by now.

It's good to hear from you.  This is a place where I learn something nearly every day.  Hope it will help you, too.

Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

Would your husband flip if you told him about this?  I wonder if there's some way to make a positive out of this.  I don't know though, it's just so complex.

I told my husband about my "sort of" affair and it turned out to be a marriage changing decision.  In our case, the changes have been positive.  But it is a big deal to go in this direction and I would go very cautiously.  In my case, I told because it was pretty obvious (my emotions tend to show and my husband knows me well) and my husband asked me.  We tell each other the truth and so that is how it, the long marriage changing conversation, began.

I also told Mr. "sort of" that I told my husband and Mr. "sort of" flipped out.  However, that has also turned out to be a work in progress.  Maybe mostly for me.

Just wanted to emphasize what a big deal the truth can be sometimes.   You can't tell something like that and just go on with life as usual afterwards.  You will each find out what you and your marriage is really made of.

Pennyplant

[adrift]

THanks everyone for your kind words.  The "almost affair" happened like this.  We hired a GC (general contractor) to build our house and from the get go I had these feelings towards him.  DH and I had already been married about 18 years and on a few occasions during those years, other men would make advances (some slight, some not---and I know this happens to everyone so it's no big deal) and I was always totally repulsed at the idea that these guys would even think that I would stoop to such a level.  I had very high morals for myself.  Anyway, the GC came along not long after my dad died and DH and I were at a really rocky point in our marriage and the GC was so nice that our relationship just blossomed.  Actually what transpired between the GC and I would qualify as an "emotional affair" and that phase went on for about 6 months.  It was obvious to his crew, I'm sure, and to anyone just about who saw us together.  Anyway one day he and I were discussing electrical details at the new house site and it was getting late and his crew was leaving and he suggested that he and I stay and work on the details some more.  His brother, however, would have none of that and kept encouraging GC to leave by saying, "we need to go set that sign". The weather was really cold and the GC went out to his truck, got the space heater and set it up in the house and asked me to wait for him to come back, and I did. Gosh it's shameful to admit all of this, I sound so cheap.  Anyway, he knew that I like Bud light in the bottle and so he left some of those and brought back some more and we drank and  discussed the lighting some more and then things went kinda sour. I was more intoxicated than he was (not drunk, just buzzing) and I leaned over to kiss him and he pulled back and said "No, I have a really good woman at home and I don't want to mess that up"  Well, you could have knocked me over with a feather!! So as I turned to leave he tried to hug me and I jerked away and he said, "But I love YOU" and I was so pissed at being rejected that I didn't miss a beat and I said, very hatefully, "WELL, THAT'S JUST GREAT!"  and I walked out.  About half way to my car he called after me and asked, "You just gonna leave?"  and I answered yes and he said, "I'm sorry" and I said "It's o.k., don't worry about it"  AND I WENT INTO MAJOR DEPRESSION!!   I thought I was gonna die! I was so in love with him and he had given me every sign that he was interested, set up us being alone , backs away from my advance but then says he loves me????????   All of that happened on a Friday and Sunday afternoon I called him because I knew he'd be worried sick (and of course I was glad he was worried sick cuz I was so hurt and mad) about what I was gonna do.  So I called and he immediately said, "I'm so glad you called" and I told him I was sorry about what had happened and that I hope it wouldn't ruin our friendship and he said it wouldn't.  We talked a few times after that about the incident and he would say, "I have a really good woman at home and I don't want to mess that up" and I told him that I'd never been unfaithful to my husband and that I was sorry for my behaviour, blah, blah, blah  but I was so depressed.
 
At this point I had what can only be described as a very near nervous breakdown.  I wasn't hospitalized, but I cried all the time and was so depressed and suicidal.  I finally told my husband all about it and he about blew a gasket.  I went to counseling some and DH went once.  Everyday was just another day to try to get through.  I was totally obsessed with this guy and I have to add that I have a best friend who told me all along to back off of him and that my behaviour was obsession and I have to credit her for telling me the truth even when it made me mad.

So  I gave GC the cold shoulder for awhile, avoiding the work site, etc,,,, Next thing I know, when I finally started getting back involved in the building process again, he started giving me those long, engaging looks again---you know the kind where you look at each other and the world stands still and he'd call me about stuff with the house that really wasn't necessary and dern if it didn't all start over again    The next times (and there were more than one) when he tried for us to be alone were much less obvious, and I won't bore you with the details, but it never happened.  Then for some reason    he began to be more distant and that was depressing as hell all over again.

When I'm with him, I feel so complete.  It's a feeling I've never had before.  Just being in his presence is enough, it doesn't have to be sexual.  Isn't that crazy??  And the even crazier part is this, he's probably a lot more like my father than my DH is.  My DH is a professional man, well educated, extremely intelligent, very straight forward, well groomed, very high morals---but DH and I never really clicked.  I married him to get away from my parents.  The GC is more country and not highly educated--that's the part that is like my dad-- I wouldn't want to ever marry him because actually I'd be embarrassed to be his wife  , but he can be so warm and kind and when he looks at me I feel special.  I guess that's it, he makes me feel special and desired.   When I'm with him I don't feel lonely.  I can be with DH and feel a hole the size of Texas inside of me.  I even feel lonely when I'm with my kids, in fact I think I feel the most lonely when I'm with them and I wonder if that isn't some harkening back to my lonely childhood.  I make a very hard effort to not be distant with them and to not be emtionally unavailable as my parents were and I think I do a fair job, I probably could do better. 

Another thing, is that I didn't even realize how unconnected I was to LOVE until out GC came along. He awakened a whole part of me that had either been dormant or dead for a very long time. 

DH knows I have some emotional scarring from my childhood and he and I have worked things out and in many ways our marriage is much better than before the GC entered the picture EXCEPT that I can't seem to get over the GC.  I saw him today and it kills me every time I see him.  Why can't I feel those warm, happy, special feelings with my DH or with others? Why only with the GC?? I've tried so hard. I've prayed. Am I only attracted to him because I know I can't have him and wouldn't really want him if I could?? Is GC my father reincarnated (so to speak) in his unavailability?? I think it must be more than that. 

Adrift

[gratitude28]

Hi Adrift and Welcome!!!!!
Wow, you have quite a story. I can totally relate to what you mean about being attracted to someone... and I would guess it's a way to seek the approval you never got. Even if your husband adores you, it's nice to get outside input. That being said, do you really want to step outside of your marriage? Is that really "you" who wants that or the little girl that wants to do something "wrong?" I know this sounds strange, but I have this whacked out sense of "right" and "wrong" due to my mother and I feel like a "cool, bad girl" sometimes when I act out. Sorry for all the quotes, but I don't know how to explain it. Sometimes, too, I think I want to do "bad" things to PROVE that she was right about me... that I AM a bad person.
At any rate, please try to avoid making a mess of your life to prove a point. Please also kee[p posting as I look forward to hearing more from you and how you are doing.
Beth

[Hopalong]

Hi Adrift,
Just one joint marriage counseling session with all this haunting you both? Sounds as though both you and your D deserve more support and processing than that...any reason it stopped?

I feel for you. I personally don't believe romantic love is the answer to our childhoods. I tried those obsessions over and over and over...wasted years I could have been happy. Now, I would rather have a kind stable mate with an affectionate heart and a sense of humor.

But, you. Your agony is replicating something, I think. Are you still working at it in therapy?

Lastly, it must be especialy hard to run into this dream creature. How does it happen that you still see the GC?

This is a hard struggle for you. I'm sorry.

Hopalong

[adrift]

DH and I never went to a counseling session together because I nixed it.  I stopped going to counseling because I just didn't see where it was going to help me.  I minored in psych in college, have read gobs of books on depression, parenting (including Toxic Parents), relationships, etc... and I know what I need to do but getting there is the problem.  As for the GC, the 12 month warranty on the house isn't up yet and he every once in a while has to come fix a little something.  Course with all the eye contact he was giving me today, and the way he went out of his way to spend time talking to me about minor stuff with the house just brings it all back up again.   Then again, sometimes I call him out of the blue just to hear his voice and to connect with him.  The phone calls consist of "how are you?" type talk all in the name of "friendship", nothing intimate although every once in a while he'll throw in a little something that "could" be an invitation to get together but I've just let it pass since I've already been burned by him bad before.   I guess that for him I provide some esteem boost or high with my flirting/affection/friendship---I mean everyone likes to be found attractive, right?

Then this brings me to another topic which I might start another thread on. 

Thanks for all the support guys!

Adrift

[pennyplant]

Hi Adrift,

Some things you mentioned resonated with me because of my own experience.  I have actually done this type of thing twice.  The first time I also went into a terrible depression.  I felt so horrible inside I wanted to die.  It felt like I was burning up inside from the pain of losing this person I had got so attached to.  Every moment of every day for weeks and months was spent thinking about him.  Everything reminded me of him.  When I knew him, I felt so happy and alive and self-confident and beautiful.  That feeling was like a drug that I did not want to give up.  But when he was gone I could feel it draining out of me like sand.  A very strange sensation.

The only thing that got me out of that terrible burning and grieving feeling was when I started up with the second one.  He took the place of the other one though they weren't much alike.  I haven't mentioned a lot about that particular situation except that this is the person that did some unusual things which led me to wonder if he was N and so I looked it up and wound up here many months ago.  I still know this person and work with him and maybe someday down the road I will address that relationship on the board.

The first one is the one I thought of when you described your feelings for GC.  He tapped into a part of me that I had completely forgotten existed.  Maybe the part of me that I left behind in childhood in order to cope with voicelessness.  My guess is that this particular person served this need in me because he was very attractive and attentive and the timing was right.  It didn't seem to be a direct statement about my marriage.  Now that my marriage is so much improved, I can see where I had some needs.  But at the time, I didn't know my marriage needed improving and I wasn't looking for anything like that.  So, I believe it was an earlier need that he triggered.

Bean, that is an interesting idea about the relationship to our fathers.  I do believe there is something to it.  But it didn't seem conscious at the time.  I do tend to be comfortable with some of the personality traits that I recognize in other men which my father also shared.  So, there is that comfort level with these familiar things.  And often it is there even when I don't recognize it right off.  I'll think I'm liking someone because he is different from my father (this was the case with my husband) and then upon getting to know him, it turns out he has much in common with my father.  So, there must be a quality underneath it all that I have somehow managed to pick up.

But another thing I noticed with each of them--I saw something of myself in them.  I wonder if I was feeling validated to meet someone who was attractive and interesting and on top of that--was like ME in someways?!?  Because I certainly never thought of myself as attractive and interesting.  What a confidence booster.  Each of them was also considered attractive and interesting by other people in a highly observable way.  They each had value.  If I am like them, then maybe I have value?!?

The first one was very young (I'm embarrassed to say how much younger than me) and so on some level I believe that maybe we were peers emotionally.  Me being somewhat stunted emotionally due to having family responsibilities at such a young age.

The second one is more of a mixture like I am now.  Some very young ideas mixed in with some very overly-responsible ideas.

My husband is the real deal.  He took this time period as an opportunity, once the shock and hurt eased up and he could think again.  He realized he also had some work to do to get us really involved with each other and close again.  It has taken a long time, a few years.  We didn't go to counseling.  One of the things we did was to email each other every day.  Especially during times when he had to go out of town.  That was really scary when he had to go overseas with the Reserves for four months.  We had just started on the road to mending and then he had to go.  That was how we discovered a way to use email to work things out.  We have done that off and on ever since (about three or four years now).

I think I have made a lot of progress in this area (this all started in 2001, right after 9/11).

The wanting it to be sexual.....  For me I just think that was because adults enjoy that kind of closeness.  My idea was that I had those kind of feelings for each of them and I wanted to have that kind of closeness with each of them.  Since I lack experience, I just assumed I would be able to handle a double life for awhile.  I'm beginning to understand just how incredibly complicated that idea really is.

Adrift, this is something you will be able to come to terms with.  It is very difficult to feel this way about someone and then not be able to act on it.  He connected with you and you with him.  It is very painful to try and take that apart.  But probably you will have to do just that in the end.  It might be easier to deal with if you and your husband really come to terms with each other and what has happened and try to do something that will help each of you grow more and grow closer than before.  Because losing GC is a real loss.  I think there needs to be something in your life that fills the needs he filled.  So, it won't be just another loss that leaves another hole in you.

Pennyplant