Setting boundaries

[Portia]

This is what I’ve worked out for myself, what do you think?

A boundary is like a fence. If someone jumps my fence, they cross my boundary and I will react.

This is a setting a boundary:

"If you say/do x, I will leave your house/put the telephone down/not talk to you/call the police.

Do you understand? Will you respect my boundary please?"

To set a boundary with someone, the other person has to understand and agree to it. They may not agree to my boundary and that may give both of us an opportunity for mutual understanding and if appropriate, negotiation. Or not.

My desire to set a boundary doesn’t mean the boundary is okay with other people.

I cannot stop people crossing my boundaries.

What I can do is decide on how I will respond when my boundaries are crossed.

My boundaries are things that I have inside me (like a mental fence). They are not things outside of me.

Those things outside of me are other people’s, or society’s, boundaries, like the Law.

To respect boundaries outside of me, I have to know what they are. That requires two-way communication and mutual understanding.

[Hopalong]

Agree totally, P....
but thought to add that often boundary communication is nonverbal.
Hints about space, time, energy levels, privacy. That sort of thing is often read in facial expression or body language or tone of voice.

Plus, a lot of times you have to ask someone for clariification---I do that when I'm getting a muddy signal. And if the face says one thing but the mouth says another, I point it out. "I hear you say 6:30 but it looks as though you're really tired...would you prefer 7:00 or another time?" Sometimes people just can't communicate except in a passive way. It's frustrating, but if they don't respond to efforts to clarify what their boundary or wish really is, then it's back to face value, their discomfort belongs to them. (I usually repeat the verbal agreement back to them, though.)

Rambling on,
Hops

[Portia]

Thanks Hops. I agree with you. Your example about times reminds me of this:

I applied for a tiny part-time job, family business. I rang up to see if they’d got my application. The owner answered, said yes, sounded like she was reading it at the time but started to waffle on about my skills and ended up with “so yes, when would you like to come and see us?”. I was taken aback, thinking she’d want time to consider. I agreed to tomorrow at 2pm. "2pm?" I repeated. Yes. Okay then.

So I turned up at 2pm…she answered the door, peered at me, I introduced myself and she said….”Oh! I thought we said 4pm?”  (we? she decided the time)

No I didn’t leave then, silly me. She was rude, attacking on the back-foot, obviously felt insecure with me – a total write-off interview and I was so annoyed! So, as she got to the point of “well it’s obviously not going to work between us and I’ve got work to do this afternoon…” I stopped her and said: “thing is, I can’t take the job because I’m afraid I might fail at it.”

She wasn’t going to dismiss me and have me leaving feeling like an idiot. So I made her stop and think – hey, this person’s got problems too….and maybe I’ve been hard on them (or not, I’ve no idea what she thought, I was just glad to shut her up).

I think we shook hands and had some mutual respect, but I can’t be sure. But I felt better. My boundary was: you’re not going to diminish me or ignore my part in this. It’s not all about your insecurities, I have some too and I will shame you into recognising that I’m a human being, or maybe shame you about your own worry of failure, whatever! She told me in passing that her ex-husband was a psychiatrist.

Off the point but maybe a funny story! Next time I won't even go in.

[lightofheart]

Good Morning, Portia,
imho, this is a wildly insightful post, seems to speak from a lot of thoughtful processing. Thank you for sharing so much good stuff.
It would be interesting to hang it up in a toxic environment and watch people's reactions.

Your boundary example sounds very direct, and respectful. As a first choice, I think direct and respectful can't be beat. And can lead to a real exchange/new understanding. It's how I would want someone to set a boundary with me.

To set a boundary with someone, the other person has to understand and agree to it.

In practice, I think what constitutes understanding and agreement, like boundary-setting, is a broad spectrum. I think a direct statement of need can set a boundary, too, as well as an indirect statement that directly addresses the issue or behavior. What exactly another person understands and agrees to gets squishier for me when I'm dealing with an untruthful person. I think someone can respect a boundary without necessarily understanding it or offering verbal agreement. Some people agree to things with no intention of compliance even as they agree. Unfortunately, it seems like untruthful people consider what they can or can't get away with in a given moment, not accountability or others' feelings. With some, I've found that the only boundary they can respect is, essentially, 'This is not okay, and we both know you're not going to change, so you better take your game elsewhere 'cause that #@*@ won't fly with me, and this is your notice, Bubba.'

It's a matter of opinion/what works, but I'm not of the camp that it's not a boundary unless the other person agrees. I just can't let the success of something hard & emotional I'm doing for myself depend on another person's reaction. Whether Bubba chooses to quit it is up to him. I think if I've made clear what it is that I won't tolerate without consequences, then I've set a boundary. Beyond that first line in the sand, it's my enforcement of any further trespasses that makes it lightofheart's boundary.

My God, this much thinking early in the morning could kill me. Goin' swimmin.

Peace, and thanks again Portia.


 

[Portia]

Hiya Lightofheart thanks for replying

It might be morning there but here (UK) it’s afternoon and my brain is starting to wind down. Being out of the main time zone is odd. Sometimes I’ll come here in the morning – when you’re still asleep – and post to say 7 threads. I see all the ‘Portias’ lined up and feel….silly sometimes! Being out of sync also means I sometimes miss things – there are lots of posts when I’m in bed at night. Ah well. Still here anyway!

To set a boundary with someone, the other person has to understand and agree to it.

Yes, I’m not saying if the other person doesn’t agree, it’s not my boundary. Just saying there’s room for understanding between healthy folks. With unhealthy folks, I might just have to impose both the boundary and the penalty for crossing it. It’s my boundary! I agree.

And I’ll add, it’s not a ‘boundary’ if I feel confused when someone does cross it. That’s the point. It is my boundary – not theirs. If it gets crossed, I act, not them. If I feel confused, maybe I don’t believe in the boundary? Boundaries are about values and beliefs and if they’re not strong, they could be breached. It’s up to me to get to know my core values and beliefs I guess.

People will bang up against and over my mental fences, and it’s up to me to deal with it. The consequences may be to remove myself from that person’s space: I can’t make other people act, but I can act on myself to enforce my boundaries, yes? Boundaries are what I make them, not what other people do.

I read a couple of posts about feeling guilty after setting boundaries and I didn’t understand why setting boundaries could cause guilt. That got me to thinking about this whole topic.

Edit in: PS just read your posts on defining N on the other 'what helps?' board and found your descriptions interesting and useful, particularly about reciprocity which I am just 'getting'.

PPS hope you enjoyed your swim

[reallyME]

I have a bit of input here.  With Jodi- N  I told her I wanted her to set boundaries with me.  In my last relationship I was accused of trying to break up the family, because my friend was spending too much time with me online vs with her children.  So, I warned Jodi that we needed to set up boundaries, where she'd tell me she had to go spend time with the family.

Her response, being an N  "I never had to set boundaries with anyone else in my entire life and I'm not about to do that with you.  We don't have problems in our relationship, Laura."

Well, as the months went on, her foster daughter grew resentful of her mentoring me/being friends with me, so she packed up and LEFT.  That was thrown in my face in a very heated convo with Jodi and her husband.  They told me "Because of you Tina left!"

When i told Jodi and her husband "but I TRIED to set boundaries with Jodi and she wouldn't.  I'm not the reason Tina left.  I didn't even KNOW Jodi was neglecting her and you all.  That is NOT MY FAULT...Jodi's husband bill said "ok you want boundaries, then you're gonna do as I SAY, BOTH OF YOU and you are NOT GOING TO DEVIATE, GOT IT?"  Well, since I wanted the relationship and these were my ministry mentors, I agreed.  Jodi however never STUCK to her own boundaries even when I tried to.  It was a mess and it was later thrown in my face during my 6 week stay with them.

[lightofheart]

Hi again, Portia (thanks, I did have a good swim),

Read this, and lauged out loud, big Santa Claus laugh.

I see all the ‘Portias’ lined up and feel….silly sometimes!

Immediately started typing 'oh, don't feel silly, Portia'...then realized I did the same thing yesterday. Posted twice in one sitting, wanted to do a third--then I pictured three LoHs lined up, got horrified, and boogied instead. The point I should have made, anyway: when I see all the 'Portias' lined up, it's like finding a caramel in my sock drawer. Only better, 'cause caramels melt quick and I know your posts will be full of food for thought and wry stories, which last longer and don't feel nasty on my teeth afterwards.

imho, you make an excellent point about confusion and boundaries. If it's a true boundary, I feel no doubt at all when someone crosses...last time it happened, cocked my head all the way sideways like my dog does when he thinks he heard 'biscuit' but isn't sure. Uh, did you really just say that? Hey, step back from that boundary, Bubba!

btw, hats off to you for not understanding why setting a boundary could cause guilt. Good for you! Glad you shared this, made me search back for my last guilt-inducing boundary. So thanks for the progress check. Just a guess, but I bet guilt over setting boundaries is rampant. Between rationalizions, self-worth stuff, denial, and communication stress, I think there's a lot of courage involved in just spitting it out, not to mention the whole range of hostile responses any masterful boundary stomper can whip out.

Thanks again for starting this fabulous thread, Portia. Takes a lot of thought, care and luck, imho, to set boundaries effectively.

Nighty, all.
 
LoH

[Portia]

I just posted something which jogged my memory! I’ve also just thought: I’m responsible for the threads I start I reckon. That’s a new idea for me. So.

Hi ReallyMe/Laura, thanks for your post; sorry I didn’t reply earlier. This is a good example of good boundaries (you) and no-boundaries (them).

With Jodi- N  I told her I wanted her to set boundaries with me.  In my last relationship I was accused of trying to break up the family, because my friend was spending too much time with me online vs with her children.

I think that was respectful and honest of you to say that to Jodi. Kind of putting your ‘stuff’ on the table. BUT I think what happened previously – your friend spending too much time with you? – that was her problem, not yours. She made the choice to spend time with you. That’s her decision, not yours. You weren’t responsible for what she decided. That’s what I think.

I warned Jodi that we needed to set up boundaries, where she'd tell me she had to go spend time with the family.

Fair enough and quite clear I think. Good for you. Putting the responsibility on her, where it belonged.

Her response, being an N  "I never had to set boundaries with anyone else in my entire life and I'm not about to do that with you.  We don't have problems in our relationship, Laura."

Yeah, she didn’t want the responsibility for her own actions did she? Red flag I guess.

That was thrown in my face in a very heated convo with Jodi and her husband.  They told me "Because of you Tina left!"

They just can’t take it eh? Their problem, not yours.

you're gonna do as I SAY, BOTH OF YOU and you are NOT GOING TO DEVIATE, GOT IT?" 

Now that’s a strong boundary! Not one I’d agree with, but then I don’t like people telling me what to do ‘my way or the highway’. I choose the highway!

Well, since I wanted the relationship and these were my ministry mentors, I agreed. 

So you took responsibility for your own choice, great.

Jodi however never STUCK to her own boundaries even when I tried to.  It was a mess and it was later thrown in my face during my 6 week stay with them.

I’m so glad you’re not around these toxic people any more. I hope you don’t have to make those sorts of choices – to stay around folks like that – again. I really hope so!


Hi LoH

Thanks again. I love being a caramel, what a happy image, thanks. Hey three posts at once? Try seven…or ten.. haha fear eh?

If it's a true boundary, I feel no doubt at all when someone crosses...

That’s a good one to remember. If I do feel doubt, I need to examine my boundary I guess.

Between rationalizions, self-worth stuff, denial, and communication stress, I think there's a lot of courage involved in just spitting it out, not to mention the whole range of hostile responses any masterful boundary stomper can whip out.

Yes I agree. I think I can’t quite get the feeling of guilt over setting a boundary because….possibly because I’ve not set many boundaries! Only those I feel deeply – those values that are second-nature. Otherwise I’ve let people walk all over me. And then when I’ve reached a real value-stomping point and reacted, boy, they’ve been surprised.

I guess I allow people to think what they like of me, and I don’t correct them, I’ve allowed them to patronise me etc and if they then really stomp on me – I go into ‘full personality’ mode. Show them exactly what I am like inside. Half the time I’m on ‘veiled personality’ mode I think. Maybe that’s not a good thing. I've been told I can be a bit 'intense' whatever that means? Interesting thoughts.   

[lightofheart]

Hi Portia,

Hey three posts at once? Try seven…or ten..  haha fear eh?

Three still seems to be my limit at once, and I've only managed it once. Seven, ten? Um, No, surely on-the-spot implosion for me. Nonsensical, as I like to see others' names lined up like ducks. Probably not the last time I contradict myself.

I guess I allow people to think what they like of me, and I don’t correct them, I’ve allowed them to patronise me etc and if they then really stomp on me – I go into ‘full personality’ mode. Show them exactly what I am like inside. Half the time I’m on ‘veiled personality’ mode I think. Maybe that’s not a good thing. I've been told I can be a bit 'intense' whatever that means?

That sounds kind of sad, Portia. Is it a sad feeling for you, veiled personality mode? I don't think I'm capable of much veiling short of feeling sick or a situation where I distrust others present. Even then, am more likely to just let it fly...figuring, well, if they dislike me, at least they/I know exactly who they're disliking and at least I got my money's worth in the honest fun department beforehand.

I don't think I know what intense means either, in people terms; imho, lends itself to sneaky euphemism use for those who choose to beat around the bush vs. come right out and say something. Maybe they're just so overwhelmed by your marvelous intensity they get thunderstruck and lose their vocabulary? If you have this power, P,, please don't go intense on me: I'd be lost without my words!

smiling like a fiend
LoH