Is she an N or what

[anony123]

This woman is endlessly "unavailable" in many ways , Have you guys ever been hugely attracted to someone who is just not really' in' the relationship. She has one foot in and one foot "out the door' and I find myself thinking of ways to entice her or manipulate her into a deeper involvement . That is draining and it does not seem to work,. There is no "easy flow" here.
 She feels like she is always in short supply . Am I making sense . Maybe the unavailability of her and her emotions are fueling my chase . She thrives on my 'attention'(lots of loving emails and texts and dates) she seems to crave it and her need for male attention is bottomless. When she and I have an argument she turns to the company of other guys and then lets me know that she has been pursued by them.

 I need a rest.
Jack

[anony123]

Heal a past hurt ? Maybe !
My mother was emotionally superficial. She was a dependent personality who was my father's 'employee' in many ways.  I never heard "I love you" from either parent.MY acceptance and approval from them was highly conditional upon my 'performance' in many aspects -sports, academic . BUt I never quite 'earned 'their love . My best was never good enough. MY father kept moving the finish line. And my mother just cooked more food and saved our precious pennies at the check-out. She still buys everything 'on sale'..
I had two younger bros and a sis. MY father was a tyrant and a bully who ran the home like a business. And my mother just cooked and cleaned  --etc. This is getting a tad painful.

[Hopalong]

It is painful to read, too, Jack. I'm sorry.
But it is brave of you and necessary.

Here's what strikes me:
I never quite 'earned 'their love . My best was never good enough.

Do you see a connection between this and desperation in a romantic relationship?

How desperate is a child within you who has never been loved?

Hopalong

[anony123]

I have had many relationships with women over the past 30 years and I have NEVER felt this kind of anxiety and uncertainty. There is something about her that gets me crazy weird shaky .It may be made worse by her unavailability. This will take a while to unravel.
Thanks for being there with me.
Jack (kinda sad )

[Brigid]

Jack,
As difficult as it is to think and talk about, the relationship that you needed to have with your parents, but didn't, is at the root of why you have chosen a woman like this. 

Like Bean said, it takes a lot of therapy to work through that pain and heal it.  I spent over 2 years after my ex left with a wonderful therapist who got me to where I am today.  It took nearly a year in therapy for me to get beyond blaming my ex for all of it and finally admitting and working through the legacy of pain my parents left me with.  My parents are both dead now, but my childhood sounds just like yours and it is hard to admit that your parents never loved you or cared about you.

But you can work through it if you really want to and you can go on to find a relationship that will bring you happiness and great love.  At nearly 56, I am in that place now and it is wonderful.  There is still pain to work through and still trust to build, but it gets better and I get better.  But the key is, and my therapist made this very clear to me--in order to find a healthy, available partner, you must first be healthy and available yourself. 

The best advice I can give is to get yourself healthy.  Start healing those deep wounds that have been created by your family of origin.  You would then see what those of us who are reading your writings can see--you have chosen an unhealthy relationship for a reason.  You want to fix her to be someone who loves you--the same as you want to fix your parents to be people who love you.  You need to find someone who is not a fixer-upper.  You need a confident, healthy, independent woman who will walk next to you--not in front or behind.

Hugs,

Brigid

[anony123]

Ok thanks Brigid,So I have chosen this woman as a substitute parent in order to "re-work' my childhood .In order for me to do that, it follows that she needs to have at least some of the characterisics of my parents. Then I go to work to remodel her into the loving parent that I never had? Sounds kinda weird but credible at the same time.
I am thinking that there must also be some reason why I stay with her even after a lot of her behavior is disturbing to me. SHe must have something that I really want really badly!

Jack(getting wiser)

[Brigid]

Jack,
I'm glad to see that you are starting to think more clearly on this.  You have not mentioned any previous relationships or if you have ever been married (I think I read that you are in your 40's--sorry if I got that wrong), but I'm guessing that this is not the first unhealthy relationship you have had.  My life was paved with fixer-uppers, married and divorced two of them, and I found the good guys boring.

Then I go to work to remodel her into the loving parent that I never had?

Basically, yes.  In therapy, I learned that since I could never fix my father to be what I needed and wanted, I sought to find a partner whom I could remodel.  Rule one:  never enter a relationship thinking you can change someone to be something they cannot or do not want to be.

I am thinking that there must also be some reason why I stay with her even after a lot of her behavior is disturbing to me.

Yes.  You think if you just try a little harder, be more of what she wants and twist yourself into someone that you no longer recognize, that she will then want and love you.  Rule two:  pay attention to the red flags which are waving in a relationship.  Listen to your gut and don't hang around thinking things will get better.

SHe must have something that I really want really badly!

Yes.  I would guess from what I have read, that you are confusing sexual intimacy with real emotional intimacy.  There is a huge difference.  Sex can only keep you connected superfically.  In order to have a true relationship, the connection must run much deeper--and BOTH ways.

Jack, keep reading and writing.  You are starting to get it.

Brigid

[anony123]

I am having trouble figuring ouit what I am trying to heal Brigid. There was no physical abuse or alcohol abuse or addictions as suchin my early life.
I do however have a strong desire in relationships to "be heard" and to be taken seriously to the point where I see the other person be willing to change some(small) part of their behavior to accomodate the health of our relationship. Also,if I heard another person say,"I know how you feel" then that would make my day !  As child I had a voice but it was NOT welcome. My opinions and thought and wishes were irritating to my parents who only regarded THEIR thoughts and wishes as being worthwhile.
So now I am in a relationship with a self-centered ,and somewhat N lady who is living exclusively for herself but acting sometimes/ pretending that she loves me. Any connection there ?

[Brigid]

Jack,

You say this:

I am having trouble figuring ouit what I am trying to heal Brigid. There was no physical abuse or alcohol abuse or addictions as suchin my early life.

But then you say this:

As child I had a voice but it was NOT welcome. My opinions and thought and wishes were irritating to my parents who only regarded THEIR thoughts and wishes as being worthwhile.

I would say that many of the folks on this site who were raised by n parents, also did not experience physical abuse or addictions.  Psychologists will tell you that the effects of mental/emotional abuse are much more devastating and long-lasting than that of physical abuse.  My n father was an alcoholic, but the drinking did not make him an n--it was only an ugly side effect.

I think if you read the thread on "Hugs" you will see how painful it was for those of us who were not touched as children and how that pain manifested itself in the future.

I will once again say that some time with a good therapist to help you sort this out properly will be time well spent. 

Hugs,

Brigid

[Anansi]

Wow, I'm in awe at the wisdom (painfully acquired I'm sure) expressed here.  And I agree with every word of it.  Anansi

[reallyME]

anony,

I will start by saying that I realize I am "sticking my neck out" here in saying this...but, there is a reason that sex was reserved for marriage.  It creates soul-ties to another person, which definitely do exert a measure of control, as you stated about feeling "powerless."  Sex is just one way a somatic narcissist uses to control another person.

In my view of this, the lady is wrong for using you and then only calling you "friend."  That is extremely misleading.  Your part in this, however, is in the allowing her to have your body in the first place.  I am a bit old-fashioned and simple when it comes to some things, and, in this case, I'd like to introduce you to a friend of mine...his name is "NO"  That word, when applied and stuck to, goes a long way in self-protection and warding off unwanted affections.

She's using her and you are letting her use you.  A codependency group for you might be very helpful in this.  I still use my codep book often as well.  The relationship is not a healthy one but a very toxic one.

Sorry if I'm being too blunt.  When it comes to N's I not only know what I'm talking about from experience, but I have very little tolerance of their abusing others, as well as the others continually opening the door and saying "come on in to abuse me and then devalue and discard me when you're done."  We, as the victims have a responsiblity to also protect ourselves. 

~RM

[blue]

I wanted to add that I am in the exact same kind of relationship with an N
And i know why. I had no love or voice in my family I was raised by N parents and my father was abusive why my Mother stood by and did nothing
I am always chasing love by someone who cannot give it If he says thank you or even notices i am alive it makes my day (well it did) I am in the working process of getting OUT of the relationship But getting away from an N is not easy
They keep drawing you back even when you know that its going know where but down a sink hole
N's can not love they can only PRETEND to love This was a hard concept for me to get . How can you "pretend" love?
I also think on a deeper level I do feel very sorry for him (as did my parents) I know he cannot help it and that he is ill He really is like a blustering child. He can not hurt me so much anymore because i am more aware of what is going on. But it is toxic and it is unhealthy and it is sad to love osmeone who cannot give you love and does not know how.
Ask yourself (as i did) why are you giving love to someone who cannot give it back?
blue

[mudpuppy]

Very well put RM.

mud

[mum]

Having seen and done it all, I gotta agree with you, REally me. Although my opinion may have come from a completely different pathway, I would imagine.......I see this to be true.

We think we can use it carefully, and without the "other" types of connection....(I used to think so) but I have yet to see that work for me in my life.

Sex is powerful stuff. Not to be used lightly. Without the "soul connection"...(or so we think!) it can be toxic.

[lightofheart]

Hi Jack,

imho, brave of you here to just go at it, while you're still neck-deep with this woman.
Just read this thread all in one sitting, and there's one line of yours that really stuck out for me:

I am thinking that there must also be some reason why I stay with her even after a lot of her behavior is disturbing to me. SHe must have something that I really want really badly!

One possibility I've seen others point out here (and it could be a combination of many factors, or nothing anyone's considered yet) is that you're reactively, subconscious vs. conscious, repeating a familiar romantic relationship pattern you grew up with, but throwing all your emotional energy into empowering a different and better result? A subconscious whack at closure around something deep in your core. What do you think she has that you can't do without? Your take would be the most important one here.

Looking in the mirror, had a string of baddish boys before my H. without ever noticing what they had in common. None of them really hurt me, and I wasn't capable of much self-reflection, so I didn't much notice the pattern. My H. is the 1st man I was attracted to you for the sheer beauty of his spirit. In retrospect, I had grown just enough to be drawn to goodness in a way I'm still humbled by.

If you're still figuring out what you're trying to heal, maybe that'd be a lot to take on with so much energy still in this relationship?

Best,
LoH