empathy that isn't, really

[daylily guest]

Hello everyone.

I've had the following conversation quite a few times over the past two weeks:

Person:  How are you doing?

Me [one of the following]:  Not very well.  My mother's back in the hospital with an infection that is probably untreatable, so we're trying to decide what kind of end-of-life care is best.  OR I'm going crazy trying to clear out her house because closing is on June 30, and every time I open a drawer I'm confronted by yet another decade's worth of bills and papers.  OR I have four serious deadlines at work this month.  I'm pretty sure someone at work is trying to exploit my distractions to co-opt one of my major job functions.  OR I've spent about $10,000 this year in lost income and additional expenses due to my mother's illness, and my finances are stretched very thin.

Person:  That's tough.  It reminds me of the time I... [followed by 20-minute personal anecdote that has basically no relevance to my situation]

Me:  Uh, thanks.

It strikes me that many people talk about themselves and somehow think they're dispensing empathy.  It seems to me that nothing is as welcome to a person under severe stress as the gentle question, the opportunity to shift some of his/her burden (however momentarily), the sense of a sympathetic ear.  Instead, people often launch into stories about how they handled similar and not-so-similar situations.  They relive their own "greatest hits" of personal stress or they bring up things that are in no way comparable and act like they "feel your pain."  What they're really doing is feeling their own pain.  I actually had someone give me a ten-minute monologue on how the fairly bad allergy season here is affecting her sinuses, and conclude with, "So I know how you feel."  Do you?  Your sinus pain is really comparable to my dismantling the family home while my mother lays dying?  Wow.  That must be some sinus headache.

I guess I'm just venting.  But I'd be interested in hearing anybody else's experience with this faux-empathy, too.  Do you think those of us with N-experience are overly sensitive to this type of thing?

a perplexed
daylily

[Brigid]

daylily,
I'm sorry if I was one of those who did not show you empathy when you so desperately need it.  I did go through that experience of emptying out the childhood home with the drawers full of old bills--so I do understand that and how painful it is. 

I hope in between your painful hours at the hospital and cleaning out the house, you can find some time for yourself to settle your aching heart.  You need to re-charge your depleted batteries to be able to go back to the battlefield, ready to once again be strong and supportive to everyone else.  As women, it is our lot in life, I think.

Sending strength and love.  ((((((((((((((daylily))))))))))))))

Brigid

[Portia]

Hi daylily

I’ll be honest, I have no idea how you’re dealing with what you’ve got in your life. I think your strength and resilience shines through, but that’s my opinion because I haven’t had to do it. Yes? How can I possibly really empathise unless I’ve been in a similar situation?

Well I guess I could listen, attentively. I could listen and not be waiting to jump in with my own story. But I think this ‘own story’ thing is a natural habit, a sort of bonding thing. But it’s not empathy. No! It’s not a bad thing, bonding, ‘are we similar, can we talk, mutually support each other’ etc – but it’s not empathy.

Someone posts here and someone else replies with “hear your pain, I am so sorry”. I read it and think, hang on, the first poster is seething with anger. Or at least that’s how I see it. ?

Empathy takes real work and attention; putting myself out of myself to try and understand what the other person is saying and feeling. It is not comparing my pain to theirs.

Gosh. I feel strongly about this. Are those who have been n’d more sensitive to this comparison job? Probably. We know when the question “how are you?” isn’t sincere.

So Daylily, how are you really? How are you coping? When can you step down from being superwoman and take care of yourself?

((((((((((((daylily)))))))))))

Edit PS

They relive their own "greatest hits" of personal stress or they bring up things that are in no way comparable and act like they "feel your pain."  What they're really doing is feeling their own pain.

Very true I think. But did i hear a hint of humour in there at 'greatest hits'? Humour in the face of being perplexed? i hope so? Humour helps survival i think.

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya Daylily

Here’s a big hug for all you’re going through at the moment ((((((((((((Daylily)))))))))))))))  From your post I get the impression you have so much on your plate that you don’t know if you’re coming or going, and it must be so hard with everything that is happening with your Mum.

I know I do do this kind of thing, not because I’m trying to impart my information or relieve my pain or because I like talking about myself, but because I feel if I tell the person what I’ve been through they might understand why I relate to what they are going through.  Sometimes I tell them how I dealt with it so may give them ways of dealing with what they are going through, though I do try and read the persons reactions, are they agreeing that I can relate, are they asking me what I did, are they looking bored because I’m talking about myself, does this relate at all to what they are going through… does that make any sense?  Though I think another thing I do is also ask them questions too… so how are you?  So how are you coping with it all, is there anything I can do?

“I actually had someone give me a ten-minute monologue on how the fairly bad allergy season here is affecting her sinuses, and conclude with, "So I know how you feel."  Do you?  Your sinus pain is really comparable to my dismantling the family home while my mother lays dying?  Wow.  That must be some sinus headache.”

This though, is laughable…. How anyone can compare a sinus headache (not saying that sinuses aren’t painful because they are) to what you are currently going through… well hon, what can you say!

Take care

H&H xx

[mum]

Daylily. What a hard place you are in right now. i'm so sorry you have to still function at work while going through all this with your mommy. (wouldn't it be nice to just go through it and not have to maintain any other things in your life???) I really feel for you...

I think most people say "how are you" without much of a thought, almost as an extension to "hi".  That's hard to take if we are not "fine" at the moment. Many times, if that's the case, I will simply say: "ok" if it's someone I know will not or cannot take the time to listen and offer me some sympathy.  
But  if it IS someone close, I will say: "I'm actually not doing too well right now....do you have the time to listen to me for a minute? I really need to unload".  Given something so straightforward, most people will answer with honesty: "let me give you a hug, because I don't have time right now, but I'm thinking of you"........or "Of course, what's going on with you?"  

The other thing is that lots of people find the subject of death and illness just too hard to bear, so they soften it for themselves wtih a story they can relate to of their own experience...........and then again....there are people who simply lack social skills or empathy or both and take every opportunity to make it about them.

Anyway, I know it's hard to think you will get a sympathetic ear, and instead find out it's someone you would have been better off just saying 'OK" to........

I'm wishing for some kind, empathetic, friendly people to come your way today, so you can get some understanding.....and some release. You have a lot of very hard things on your plate...and you are handling them admirably.

Just an afterthought: can you let some of the work related things go? Maybe hand them off to someone (I have NO clue if this makes sense in your situation...just thought I'd throw it out there).

[seasons]

Hi Daylily,
I'm sorry to hear of the pain, stress and heartache you are going through at this very delicate time. ((DL)).

I understand your frustration.
quote: How can I possibly really empathise unless I’ve been in a similar situation?

I found myself guilty of this behavior yesterday on this board. Someone wrote out a deep and thoughtful post.  It was filled with my moments of, oh that happened to me too, I understand because X, Y, and Z, see that  happened to me,  I do understand.
 Before posting, I reread my reply and my response ended up being all about me!   How selfish of me, so I decided NOT TO POST until I could give more of a supportive, and considerate post.

Thank you for bringing this up, I will try and be more selfless in my posts before I hit reply.


Wishing you strength, love and support during this time of loss. (((seasons)))

[daylily guest]

Brigid, Portia, H&H, Mum--

Thanks so much for the kind words.  Please be assured that I'm NOT commenting on how people respond to posts on this board.  I'm talking mostly about interactions at work, and with people whom I thought I was somewhat close to.  I don't spill the entire personal thing to everybody who gives me a casual "How's it going" while waiting for the elevator.

I think it's mostly the time thing that amazes me.  If people have 15 minutes or so to tell me about their own problems, why can't they spend the same 15 minutes in a limited but useful interaction with me?  Or anyone, for that matter?  Dunno.

But anyway, I'm sorry if my original post came off as a veiled criticism of board conduct.  Not in any way how I intended it.

daylily

[mum]

But anyway, I'm sorry if my original post came off as a veiled criticism of board conduct.  Not in any way how I intended it.

Never once thought that, Daylily. And of course, you arent' spilling your guts to everyone who passes you. I get what you are saying. It's just tough. Maybe adding that you need an ear right now? (maybe they will get the hint that you don't want to BE an ear right now?)
Bless you....I still say, that today you will get one very good listener and you will not feel so ignored.....you'll see.
sending love to you and your mom.

[Portia]

Daylily,

No way did I think you were criticising board conduct. Maybe I started that train of thought? Probably, haven’t checked.

think it's mostly the time thing that amazes me.  If people have 15 minutes or so to tell me about their own problems, why can't they spend the same 15 minutes in a limited but useful interaction with me? 

Maybe they get a whiff of your problems – which might seem huge to them – and then they rabbit on about themselves because they’re embarrassed? Or guilty for not having your problems? Or maybe they’re simply unable to think about anyone but themselves? All that stuff. Whatever the reason, it’s not about you eh? They’re doing their thing, ignoring you.

You didn’t ask for advice Daylily but since I’m typing (!) maybe you could stop them after 2 minutes with “oops sorry to interrupt, I do have to go, nice seeing you”? ?

[pennyplant]

Dear Daylily,

Any one of the things happening to you now would be burden enough--I imagine you could use some real relief beyond the "ear".  So, I'm putting that thought out there to the universe for you  .

Maybe the voiceless ones are more sensitive to lack of real listening, or maybe it is that the experience of voicelessness can just explain it so much more eloquently... I don't really know.  It does seem to me that part of the problem with inability to really listen to others has to do with inability to be really in the moment for ANYTHING in life.  It seems to me that many, many people are caught up in a swirl of thoughts about what is next on the list.  So many things going on and so much to remember and so much of it is just a bunch of have-tos.  Maybe the more mundane it is, the more caught up in it one gets.  Then when something very real comes along, like a life and death matter, or a passage of any kind, that particular person has to rise above the internal noise, going to a place just outside of where everyone else is at the moment.  You know, sometimes I find myself wishing for a big, life-changing event so I can have an excuse to get involved in something important and meaningful.  Fortunately, no wish of mine of that nature ever came true!!

All my best to you Daylily.  I think that what you are doing right now is one of the most important things you will ever do in this life.  For me, when I look back on caring for my father during his illness and death, I know that is it the most important thing I have ever done along with giving birth to my sons.  It does give me some satisfaction that I was in a place to be able to do what I could for him.  It's really a very special thing, as hard as it is.

Pennyplant

[Hopalong]

Hi Daylily,
I know what you mean. It's like the old joke:
You think you've got problems? I, I, I, I...blah blah blah.
You just want to whack 'em.

I'll bet if you think back to times in your life when you were not in such pain and under such great stress, when people react that way you have more of a patient or indulgent or unruffled reaction to their inability to or choice not to stop and empathize. Still annoying, but less so.

You are under an enormous strain. It is precisely the times when we need to be most kind to ourselves that we aren't, we can't...we don't know how: "everyone else needs me this second must keep functioning no time to let the heart mourn she needs me it's all chaos what am I going to do next I can't sleep well is her pain under control and there are these endless forms and papers meanwhile work is inhuman all pressure all the time the company doesn't care, I am a cog. And my mother's dying. Help!"

At least this is what I imagine you might be partly feeling. I'm so sorry, Daylily. I echo Mum's suggestion that work, for all its urgency, be allowed to slip. True, it might have consequences.

But the old saw, that noone ever says on their deathbeds: "I just wish I'd spent more time at the office..." might apply.

You're doing something very important. Your life is so much deeper than your job.

Love and peace to your aching heart and tired brain,

Hops

[Sela]

Hi Daylily:

You sure have a load on your plate.  It all requires so much strength eh?  You are enduring so much and I really do feel for you and I imagine it must be exhausting for you?  I think it's great that you can even find the time and inclination to post here for support.  Good for you!!  Vent away!  This is the place!!  Hope it helps!!

You've helped me too because you  really have me thinking about empathy now.  I think I might be guilty of doing what you've described......offering  "I'm so sorry"'s and examples of what I thought were similar situations I've dealt with in the past and how it turned out, wanting it to help give the person hope that their situation might also work out.....ok.       I wonder if I didn't help?

But then.........I always seem to swing back around to intentions in my head.   Intentions count, I think.

Do you think some of the people who responded to you were well-intentioned.....and some were just too into themselves to really pay attention to you?

The ones who wanted to help........even though they didn't......do you take comfort from their caring?   Wasting their time.  Trying with stuff that doesn't help?

The ones who are not interested in helping.......as far as you can tell.........can you just chuck them into the "not gonna rely on them"......bin?  Not waste your time looking for support from them?  Or sharing your stuff?

In other words, the positive thing I see, in the face of all this weight you're carrying and stuff you have to get done and deal with.....is that it is becoming clear who your real friends are.   Not always the truth we want but in the end, important and good for us to know maybe?

I wish I knew the right thing to say to help you feel totally understood and supported.  Something that would make this all a little bit easier for you.   Those are my intentions in trying to offer you something positive out of a situation that seems so full of negatives right now, maybe?  It's all so hard to withstand but it does make us stronger.....so the saying somewhat goes eh?  Wishing you great bowls of hardy strengthening chicken soup for you soul!!

(((((((((((((((((((a big caring cyber hug too Daylily))))))))))))))))))))))

Sela

[WRITE]

Hiya Daylilly

I was wondering how you were doing.

It's hard to have a problem here ( in America ) I have found, 'how are you' is more of a greeting than an open question, and people are so competetive in work situations so that's the last place to get support, even though many 'modern-thinking' workplaces have trained their staff: we want y'all work in a supportive environment etc. etc.

Your sinus pain is really comparable to my dismantling the family home while my mother lays dying?  Wow.  That must be some sinus headache.
 
Glad to see you're keeping your sense of humour about it!

This is a country with a cultural lack of empathy, telling someone 'I have a problem' can open a floodgate of 'oh so do I...'.
( I told a friend once I had bipolar and she said 'oh I think I might have that...'! )

Wonder if it's too rude to intererrupt with 'oh that's really interesting!' and walk off. Shirley Valentine I just thought of then: might as well talk to the wall!

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[moonlight52]

Hi Daylilly ,  I just want to say I hope you pass thur these rough times and reach comfort and serenity very soon.
Love and Light
Moonlight

[lightofheart]

Oh, Daylily,

I'm so sorry about your Mom's pain. Sorry for all your heartache and worries at once. As Moon says, light & love to your heart, Daylily.

You're right, reciprocal listening should always apply, now more than ever for anyone who knows even the barest facts of how you are. And how are you, when you have a second to breathe? Do the good listeners around you make up some for the tin ears?

Hope you can cut yourself some slack while the demands and hurt are skyhigh? Know it's easier said than done, but you deserve it.

For one tiny instance, simple calculation reveals that depth of your load X clueless un-listening experiences='venting' does not apply to any Daylily speech. You're coming off as the furthest thing from a complainer. More like stoic. Would it help to just let rip every cranky and/or slammingly blunt thing you really wanted to say lately? Maybe whatever you'd like to tell the encroaching co-worker?

Typing feels like watery compassion here. What I'd like to do is bring cookies and help clean while you pour out whatever you'd care to unburden. Hope you'll keep talking to the good folks here. You're brave and amazing for what you're helping your Mom do.

Bless you and yours, Daylily

LoH