Splitting [All-good? All-bad? Aww, Malarkey!]

[Stormchild]

It looks as though I can pretty much wind things up here, now.

Returning to the subject of bad faith:

I posted the locked thread on June 16, 2006, 8:00:16 a.m.

At 8:30:37 a.m. Portia posted here:

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.php?topic=2774.msg44970#msg44970

Storm,

Are you referring to the thread where I’ve just told Seeker that their behaviour is out of line? Well are you? Are you are you are you are you....hmmmmmmmmm? Come on Storm, please tell me, I wanna know! If you are, why not say so?

I don’t think I’m playing Victim, Rescuer or Persecutor in that thread. I’m calling a specific piece of  behaviour as I see it. I take full responsibility for my action. Nobody else has to be involved – unless they choose to be.

We all make choices about the time we spend here and what we say. It's a free choice!   Brilliant! You made a choice in posting your ‘Cycles of Conflict’ thread. What was your motivation? Was it a role from Karpman?  

From that thread:

I'm wondering if this type of weekend conflict does indeed fall into a pattern. And I wonder why, if this is a cycle we're experiencing, we 'need' it. Do we need it? If we do, do we need it in quite this way?

Yes I “need it” . Are you telling me I can’t have it? And who exactly is the ‘we’ you’re talking about? Are you gathering a group around you Storm?

I am really sorry, everyone. I'll unlock it Monday, and people may castigate me here to their hearts' content at that time.

No you’re not sorry at all Storm. However, your locking a thread does not stop me starting a new thread.   My goodness!  

Fancy a little conflict for the weekend Madam? (barber-shop style). I’ll leave this thread open and try to quell my curiosity and not return to it…too often!

ahhh freeee willllllll is a terrible thing...................................

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(gone snorkelling in deep water)..................................

This is pretty nasty stuff; childish, taunting, etc. It's not funny; it's mean. [And yes, I did something similar to Sela not so long ago. Portia has quite pointedly quoted one of my lines, to rub my nose in it. I've fessed up, and when I said I was sorry, it was genuine. I haven't done it since, nor do I intend to.]

A sample good faith response from Portia would have looked more like this:

"Hey S., read your thread. Feeling a bit singled out... so first: is any of this about me? Is this something you see me doing? Wow, that hurts, but if you think I'm really like this, I can understand why you stopped talking to me, especially after that thing with Sela. I'd like a chance to prove you wrong, but I'd also like a chance to find out why you think this. Because if you're right at all, in any way, this isn't how I want to be, and it's not how I thought I was. If this isn't about me... well, I feel really silly, but I'd still like to get us talking again."

Key components: sincere desire to solve problem. Sincere desire to restore communication. Openness in place of defensiveness [and offensiveness]. Ability to own errors, etc. Sincere, period.

Meanwhile, Sela posts the following [excerpted] at 10:38:34:

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.php?PHPSESSID=beba06ac8db22028fe1833cdc6a944f9&topic=2776.msg44982#msg44982

 

Hi there.....ya'll and good morning!  Ain't it a beaut?  It's sunny here and life is quite calm, cool and collected.
Hey......1........2..............3...........this is the 4th thread started to do with/sort of......the same kind of thingy.  I like the number 4.

I figgered, why not start a thread for anybody who doesn't feel like getting into another discussion about conflict, who might be too tired after a long week at work to bother getting all riled up, who might have nothing useful to say (like me) about the whole scene at this time, who may just feel like staying OUT of triangles and wars and like it might be a waste of their time to get involved, because it might backfire.  Also, for those who are wearing their chicken suits (how do you like mine?  I love yellow!!  ) and are afraid that by getting into another one.....things could escalate, again, and once burnt...twice..something or other?   

Oh ya!  And for anybody who wants to say that non-conflict is just as good and fun and pleasing and cute as conflict is......and who wants to write that on a bumper sticker and glue it to the back windshield of their hummer!  Feel free!! Post here!!   

Plus.......I haven't started a thread in awhile because I really seem to have to build up some kind of mental/emotional courage and examine my intentions and make sure it seems like something others will be interested in and maybe might want to talk about or at least.....might lead to something worth talking about....that may help me or someone, at least, and plus be an honest expression of something within me that needs to come out and all of that and ..........

Heck!  I just threw caution to the wind and started this one anyhow.  No need to reply, if you don't want to or think it's silly (it is!!   Or is it??    I can't tell  ).    Or........put your own deep stuff here, if you want......do the highjacky thingy and feel absolutely no, not a smidge, nor a drop, or a dram of guilt about it!!

The best rule is:

1.  BE NICE!

Ofcourse, I don't make the rules and certainly have no way of enforcing them, so forget that rule, unless you feel like following it, then by all means...........

I think I'm rambling now.   Am I?  Ok......since I'm making up rules I have no right to make up and can't enforce (nor do I want to have that much power, come to think of it, anyhow...that's for warriors and police and moderators and bosses and stuff ).......but since I'm thinking up rules to make that can't and won't be enforced by me........how about:

2.  Ramble if you want to just don't be mean and rumble!!

'Course, I can easily go on and on about rules and not getting into conflict, today, 'cause I feel like it and 'cause I'm not the one being called N or told I'm over-reacting or might be over-reacting or feeling the need to defend anyone who's been called and N or told their over-reacting or who might be over-reacting because the last time I stuck my nose in where it wasn't polite to do so......look what happened?

Silence.

Ok next rule then........

3.  No going silent.

Talk.  Talk respectfully.  Talk honestly.  Talk with sincerity.  Talk with an open mind (or an empty one, like mine eh?)......but do talk.  Don't go silent and stop talking and divorce all possibility of resolution.  Only by talking will that possibility ever happen.  Talking is good stuff.  Not talking is.......

No fun at all (  )  It's too quiet.   Although....silence is golden eh?  Ok....but so is harp music.    I love harp music.

And I like having fun ( ).

I do.  I like so much here and so many people.  I like seeing conflict resolved.    I like seeing it not start, to begin with, and I like how others dooooo step in and speak their minds and try to get their points across and how sometimes........people's views change, in a good way, and things work out lovely.  I like it when we treat eachother with respect.

Alrighty then......last rule (that I can't make nor enforce, mind you:)

4.  Be respectful please.

Hahahahaha!  I've broken all those rules myself, sometimes!  (   that was embarassed laughter, by the way).

I like the number 4 and the fact that I can write 4 rules that I can't enforce and the fact that I bet someone........maybe more than a few people here.......will gettttttt what I'm ramblin' about!  That is another wonderful thingy!  Lot's of times.....people here get what eachother is saying.

It's not always misunderstanding or conflict.  Not even that often (statistically speaking......if I had any idea about the statistics or were a person inclined to research them, which I'm not, not those particular statistics.  I have other stuff to do today-----like grocery shop----and laundry---and cleaning---all the fun stuff!).

Ok .....off I go.  Hope you all enjoyed this as much as I did.  We might need 42 more threads that inter-relate, I'm not sure.     This one would be lovely if the rules were followed.....what do you think??

  Sela

There's a great deal of covert sniping here, but the most interesting aspect is the repeated references to silence, not being spoken to, the aggrieved tone, the implication of being wronged by the cessation of communication.

Bad faith again. Sela had not made a single good faith effort to communicate with me here since the debacle... she's spinning this situation, misrepresenting it, and milking it, all at the same time.

A good faith response from Sela would have looked something like this:

----- nothing. This didn't concern her. There was no need to make any reference to it whatsoever. ------

A good faith overture from Sela, totally separate from this issue, would have looked like this:

"Hey S., I've been thinking about that mess we got into and it really bothers me that we don't talk. I'd like to fix that. I did something rude and inappropriate and so did you, and I know you forgave me and I thought I forgave you but I guess I didn't really - I couldn't have, could I, if I was so eager to start another fight again, right away, about something else? Can't blame you for taking off after that, who knows what I would have started on you about next, right? Right. I see your point, but I don't think I'm that kind of person, I don't want to be that kind of person. I don't want this going on between us. I'd like to fix it. Can we? Is there a way to start?"

Key components: sincere desire to solve problem. Sincere desire to restore communication. Openness. Ability to own errors, etc. Sincere, period.
 
Sela didn't help matters much today when she posted here:

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.php?PHPSESSID=ae87055a57f47c328f782bbc0949080f&topic=2790.msg45373#msg45373

Hi Stormy,

You said you didn't want to talk with me any more and you blocked me from pm'ing you so I've tried to respect that and have not posted to you.....not even posted to any of your threads (I think?  Or maybe I did?  I know I'm trying not to).

However, if you're going to post about me and especially about what you've decided my intentions are/were then it almost seems like you're trying to communicate to me (not with me, mind you).

I like two sided games that allow both people in.  I think it's fairer that way.  One sided ones aren't fair at all.  I think that kind of making statements about how you've interpreted stuff, especially about another person's motives, intentions/what's in their heart....Stormy..........is not at all fair, when you also decide that only you are allowed to speak and that you won't respond to the one(s) you're speaking about.  I think complaining about being ignored and then ignoring others isn't fair either.  And talking "to" them rather than "with" them.......is childish and manipulative behaviour.  Sorry Storm, but that's what I think.  Not to harm you.  Not to make you the bad guy.  Only because you're making this big stink about others being jerked around while jerking people around and because I've behaved in messed up/screwed up ways myself, lot's of times and needed to just stop.

It's just weird to see you acting so unfair.  What's up Stormy?  What's going on?  

I'd rather discuss whatever issues peacefully with you Storm.  I'm not looking for "pretexts to take offense" at you and never have been.  Sorry you've decided that I am or have been.

Sela

This is a sooty pot, taking offense at the presence of carbon deposits on an adjacent kettle.

There is a double standard -- obvious when what is said here is compared with what was said above.

A good faith response would have looked like this:

"S., I saw you referring to me here. It feels weird to be talked about rather than to. It feels unfair. But guess what... I did the same thing to you on Friday, didn't I... all the time I was talking about not liking conflict, and silence, I was taking little potshots at you. So I guess I don't really have any basis for criticizing. Look - I'm tired of this, it hurts, I want us to be talking again. I want us to put this behind us. How can we get to that point?"

***********************
This isn't about my being sad or hurt or needing to 'get away' for a little while... I wish it were. But the bottom line is, I can't talk honestly with people who won't talk honestly with me, and I'm just not interested in talking dishonestly in a therapeutic setting where recovery from emotional injury is supposed to be a common objective.

There are plenty of other people here sharing the journey to recovery with whom I can make real progress... people who will confront me honestly, people who will do their level best to accept honest confrontation in return. People for whom conflict is a symptom that there is a problem - and who want to find that problem and solve it in good faith.

I'll stop with this. This poor old horse couldn't be any deader, and it's just sad to keep flogging it now. Sela's right about one thing for sure; it's definitely time for me to let this go.

I hope to God some of what I've tried to get across here... gets across.

*************************************
Life Means So Much [Chris Rice]

Every day is a journal page
Every man holds a quill and ink
And there's plenty of room for writing in
All we do and believe and think.
So will you compose a curse
Or will today bring blessing;
Fill the page with rhyming verse
Or just some random sketching?

Teach us to count the days
Teach us to make the days count
Lead us in better ways
That somehow our souls forgot
Life means so much --
Life means so much --
Life means so much.

Every day is a bank account
And time is our currency
No-one's rich, nobody's poor
We get 24 hours each...
So how are you gonna spend
Will you invest, or squander?
Try to get ahead
Or help someone who's under...

Teach us to count the days
Teach us to make the days count
Lead us in better ways
That somehow our souls forgot
Life means so much --
Life means so much --
Life means so much.

Has anybody ever lived who knew
The value of a life
And don't you think giving is all that proves
The worth of yours and mine??

Teach us to count the days
Teach us to make the days count
Lead us in better ways
That somehow our souls forgot
Life means so much!

[Sela]

From pg 4 of the "Patience" thread:

Hi Stormy:

Just wanted to say that by "no whistle was blown", I mean that you are not some big bad whistle blower, in my mind, some snitch.  I understand that you did what you thought was right and you wanted to alert me.

By "there was nothing to blow about"......I mean in regards to P's intentions.  She did violate by sending private information but she did so to try to help.  Even so, I need to know what I say in a pm won't be forwarded on to others, so I see and appreciate your concern and effort to alert me.

Is this absolute?  If I said I was going to kill myself and burn my house down.....would it be ok for P to send that info to Dr. G, for instance?  Heck yessirree!!  That's serious stuff.  Emergency stuff.

There are no real absolutes, I think.  Just basic common sense.

What I don't understand is why you're not talking to me or accepting pm's.  But that's ok.  I trust you have reasonable reasons.

Sela

Looks like you decided waaaaaay back then that I was insincere, dishonest, that you know what's in my heart, and I started complaining about the "silence" back then too, started trying not to upset you further, started avoiding your threads, tried to accept your right to not talk with me.  But the lecture and the locking of that other thread and then running away......upset me.  I complained loudly about it but I didin't talk ....about you.....or your intentions.....or define your sincerity or lack of it or make proclamations about what's in your heart. (and on edit:  that original post to the "non-conflict" thread wasn't just about you, either).

I'm still trying to communicate with you.  Still complaining about the silence.  I see you're not reciprocating and I can't change your mind, that's for sure.   If I had of made

a single good faith effort to communicate with (you) here since the debacle

, I bet you'd be saying I didn't respect your right not to speak with me or some other "definition" of me..  So this is it.  If you choose not to speak with me, rather to talk about me, or to/at me, then I guess that's your choice, isn't it?  If you decide what I feel and want and think and intend, that's your decision.

Saying I'm acting in bad faith, spinning, milking..........

Where do you get off Storm?  Seriously. 

I'll stop with this.

Ofcourse you will.  Slam dunk and then run for the hills.  It's a pattern.

Not me.  I care about your feelings.  I'm not going to make up some rendition of what  an attempt at resolution would sound like from your end.  I'd rather hear it from you, from the Stormy I know, instead of from where ever all of this is coming from.

  Sela

[Portia]

Penelope

sometimes people don't want to talk to someone else because it's painful to them, I imagine.
He said 9 times out of 10, people are thinking about themselves and their needs (to be left alone in this case), they're not trying to hurt the other person.

I think I see your point here. I agree, sometimes I don’t want to talk and I shut up. I don’t talk. I find if I don’t talk, nobody talks back to me. Especially if I remove myself from anyone, turn the phone off, don’t open emails etc. It’s difficult for people to talk to me if I don’t make myself available. If I’m in pain, I go to bed and stay there, sometimes.

If I want to be left alone, I remove myself. I don’t invite people into my home. I don’t phone them up and then say ‘leave me alone’.

If I ring someone up and then tell them they’re hurting me by talking to me….


Certain Hope

All of what you said, especially:

If I'd escape into the bathroom for a bit, he'd be waiting immediately outside the door for me when I came out

is exactly what my mother has told me about her and stepdad. Including the sleep deprivation. This is how cult leaders brainwash their recruits. I mentioned this idea to her and she agreed! Mother neglected and failed me in many ways when I was a child, but did she suffer? Oh yes.

[Portia]

Storm

It looks as though I can pretty much wind things up here, now.

I don’t understand. I don’t need to understand, but I’d like to. What do you mean, wind things up? Are you planning to go?

This is pretty nasty stuff; childish, taunting, etc. It's not funny; it's mean.

I agree it’s not nice. But I also think there are different ways to interpret my post to you, different to the words you’ve used above. Really I do. Want to know my interpretation of my post?

I was emotional at the time I wrote that. Am I allowed to behave badly sometimes? Or do I have to write in compassionate, adult, open, honest terms all the time? I hope I’m being adult now. I hope you can feel that I’m being honest and sincere now.

I can't talk honestly with people who won't talk honestly with me

Ditto. Me neither.

people who will confront me honestly, people who will do their level best to accept honest confrontation in return. People for whom conflict is a symptom that there is a problem - and who want to find that problem and solve it in good faith.

Go for it Storm. Talk to me. I’m listening. What’s the problem between you and me? I’d like to resolve it.

[Certain Hope]

Dear Storm,

Once again, I just want to say that your efforts in communicating here have not been wasted. I've appreciated your input and learned a great deal through reading your posts.
I'm not replying to take sides in a conflict, because I haven't really followed the threads with an eye to that. In fact, I doubt whether the original conflict is even the issue anymore, but rather the defining of positions in the wake of that conflict.

From my perspective, you have made the effort to state your own version of what an appropriate response from others would sound like, which is something I used to do in my head (but rarely shared it with the other people involved). I think that takes alot of courage and shows your sincerity in wanting to be known and understood, to resolve conflict. Seems to me that you have taken a sincere stand for the qualities in relationship that you value and defined your boundaries well, imo. Even when you use a multitude of words, there's a simplicity of thought that shines through to me, because I don't sense sarcasm, passive-agressive humor, or thought shuffling in your posts. Sometimes when I read here, the words seem like cards in a double deck, repeatedly being shuffled but never really getting anywhere. 
And I wonder... have you been left with the feeling that it's impossible to continue from the same position in relationship you held before this conflict arose? Once trust has been broken, the rebuilding must begin on a firmer foundation, I think. Is that what your posts have been about? Testing the ground to see whether it was suitable for the pouring of fresh cement? I've had occasions where mutual forgiveness was expressed verbally but then the other's cavalier attitude would strike me as insincerity. I truly don't deal well with "cavalier" and I've long been aware that plenty of nastiness can be barely veiled beneath a guise of wit and humor.
When I see that, I figure there's an agenda underlying the message which precludes any genuine sincerity.

Anyway... just wanted you to know that I have valued your communications here and hope that you'll continue to voice your perspective to all of us who are on this same road together, learning to relate to others without causing or receiving harm.

Hope

[Sela]

Know what Hope:

Sometimes when I read here, the words seem like cards in a double deck, repeatedly being shuffled but never really getting anywhere. 

This statement is meant to help?

I've had occasions where mutual forgiveness was expressed verbally but then the other's cavalier attitude would strike me as insincerity. I truly don't deal well with "cavalier" and I've long been aware that plenty of nastiness can be barely veiled beneath a guise of wit and humor.
When I see that, I figure there's an agenda underlying the message which precludes any genuine sincerity.

That's all in your head.

Just for the record, my humour is sincere.  I'm a dense oaf, sometimes, but I laugh at myself and the world for the sheer joy of laughing and because I know it's a heck of a lot more sincere than trying to come across as pious.

Sela

[Portia]

Sela

hiya how you doing? Okay? Doesn’t sound it to me. Sounds like you’re hurt and I can see why…..you think Certain Hope is talking about you?

Certain Hope
I wondered too when I read your post. Then I read it again. And again. And yes, again. Then I thought about what your message was. And who it was addressed to!!

Then I thought: Sela’s not going to like this. True!

Okay. Fair enough. Just saying what I saw, read, felt, expected and Sela? I was about to react in exactly the same way. Same way. Taking it very personally.

What do you think? Does Certain Hope say she’s talking about you? About the board even?

I have another post for Storm here…..hang on where is it…..

But hey hang on

it's a heck of a lot more sincere than trying to come across as pious.

 :shock:War Zone! Alert alert! Haha. Sorry . Doing my joker routine in the face of …. other people’s interactions. Pious? Oooo Sela! Haha.

Pious!
Not!
Are!
Not!

Certain Hope, can I pretend to do your part here please? I bet you wouldn’t react anything like this, but can I pretend please? For Sela? Thanks. 

How you doing, one and all?

Shall I post my post now…?

Haha. No. My humour is very very sincere as some of you know. When I joke it can be for serious reasons.

[Portia]

Storm,

Very serious post. Might as well post it. Then see how Sela is getting on, and Certain Hope if she’s around.  This is for you:

I don’t feel right about my last post to you. To me it feels cold and somewhat challenging (“you want to talk honestly? Well come on then!”).

So I was thinking, how can I do this differently?

What does Storm need from me to talk to me?

I read this again:

"Hey S., read your thread. Feeling a bit singled out... so first: is any of this about me? Is this something you see me doing? Wow, that hurts, but if you think I'm really like this, I can understand why you stopped talking to me, especially after that thing with Sela. I'd like a chance to prove you wrong, but I'd also like a chance to find out why you think this. Because if you're right at all, in any way, this isn't how I want to be, and it's not how I thought I was. If this isn't about me... well, I feel really silly, but I'd still like to get us talking again."

I guess I could have said all that. But I didn’t feel like that Storm.

You’re brighter than me I would guess. You know more than me. I’m fairly bright but when it comes to emotional understanding, no I’m not bright. Are you? (Genuine question. Intellectually bright is not empathetic. True?)

So I didn’t feel like your paragraph Storm. I felt angry. I felt targeted. I felt persecuted. I felt ‘told off’. Doesn’t matter what your intention was: this is about how I felt when I posted that childish post to you. I felt those things.

If I was able to post something like your paragraph above, I doubt I’d be here. Why would I need to be here, if I was that healthy?

So.

You might need me to be better able to listen, better able to communicate, better at everything in order for you to want to talk to me.

I can’t be those things if I’m not those things now. I cannot necessarily be what you might want me to be. So we won’t talk. I would accept that. I absolutely hate being misunderstood but hey, I have to learn not to hate it so much.

Why am I trying so hard now? I feel that I am trying very hard now. You may not think so. I think I am.

I don’t know why. It matters to me. I like to understand and be understood. If it doesn’t matter to you, or you’d rather not, that’s okay. I won’t like it, but I will accept it.

Now I feel sad. That’s how it is.

I shall see if I can raise a smile and talk a different language with someone else. Just because I talk a different language sometimes does not mean that I am not deadly serious and in earnest here.

[Portia]

I’m such a twit. I have no idea what anyone means when they say “pious”.

Totally prejudiced I am. You know what? Foot in mouth. Or both feet.

mmmhmpphmmphmp

Sela, hope you’re okay. ((((((((Sela))))))))

Certain Hope, did you mean to make Sela as mad angry as a hatter?

I don’t know what’s happening any more. I’m confused. I want tea and biscuit. So I’ll get some

[lightofheart]

Hi Portia,

It's good to keep hearing from you here.

I think I get you now. I think I reacted negatively to that post, thinking you were ‘telling me off’ maybe? The last line I think (I’m remembering, not looking) from you? Think I thought: you sound annoyed at me. That was my baseline if you like ‘LoH sounds annoyed at me, what’s the best thing to say’ kind of thing.

[/color]

Given that you thought I was telling you off, thank you for taking the time and considering the best thing to say and asking questions rather than telling me off in return. I really appreciate that, the fact that you asked how I felt rather than pouncing. A gentle thing.

I'm glad you get me; I wasn't annoyed, only puzzled and curious. Because I read your 1st post on F.F. & Unlocked and things you'd said previously about free will and respecting boundaries, then what you said about peace and compassion...and couldn't make it all match up. I don't mean this as a criticism, I didn't think anything negative about you based on this perception. Just thought, What she's saying and doing doesn't match, no judgment attached. Because contradiction, imho, is part of being human, me included.

Now that I think on it (and thanks for that gentle nudge), no small part of my puzzlement was projection. Personally, I take it deeply to heart if I feel like someone has set a boundary with me. Plus, I'm sensitive to the feeling of being unwelcome. So, between the two, if someone ever told me they didn't want to talk to me, I would need a whole lot of convincing from them, directly, before I ever said so much as hello again. Hope this doesn't sound glib, because I meant it, seriously. That's just who I am. Me, by definition, not being you or anyone else (AHA, note to self; remember this  ). So I really wanted to try to understand. And, Portia, imho, you try hard to be forthcoming here so I thought you'd respond, and hoped the questions wouldn't be taken the wrong way.

But I wanted to say I appreciate your reply and your persistence to be understood and to understand. That is so valuable to me.

[/color]

Yes, I'm driven by this, even try to understand people in the act of shouting at me. Thanks for recognizing it as curiosity. I don't feel superior to anyone here or want to analyze them, and I accept there are billions of things in the world I won't ever get, and us humans, imho, are all over the place. Still, it's important for me to try with people, because trying is what's in my bag. Seek First to Understand. I see that urge in you and value it, too...well, 'cause what would be nicer than people acting like me! (HA!)

I really, really hope I haven't said anything you find hurtful here, Portia. My word of the day is 'tenderness' and it's not necessarily my strength, but I'm trying. (see above). I see you trying, too, and I'm grateful in a big way that we've been talking here. Smiles to you.

Best,
LoH

[lightofheart]

Hi Hope,

I know you weren't talking to me, I apologize for nosing in, but for what it's worth, just wanted to tell you how much I appreciated what read to me like a thoughtful, considered and very respectful post. imho, there's real kindness in covering all those bases, and you're brave to try in a setting where folks may be riled. It's risky business, and you inspired me.

Sometimes when I read here, the words seem like cards in a double deck, repeatedly being shuffled but never really getting anywhere.
And I wonder... have you been left with the feeling that it's impossible to continue from the same position in relationship you held before this conflict arose? Once trust has been broken, the rebuilding must begin on a firmer foundation, I think. Is that what your posts have been about? Testing the ground to see whether it was suitable for the pouring of fresh cement? I've had occasions where mutual forgiveness was expressed verbally but then the other's cavalier attitude would strike me as insincerity. I truly don't deal well with "cavalier" and I've long been aware that plenty of nastiness can be barely veiled beneath a guise of wit and humor.
When I see that, I figure there's an agenda underlying the message which precludes any genuine sincerity.

[/color]

Sorry, again, for nosing in, but this resonated with me so much I got ants in my pants. For what it's worth, I'm with you on cavalier behavior. I won't even argue with someone I see as consistently cavalier, I'm just done. I sum up this whole question around trust and sincerity as the ability to give someone the benefit of the doubt. For me, once I can't give someone the benefit of the doubt anymore, am unable to see them as sincere and/or trustworthy, that relationship will either have to be entirely redefined or end.

Anyway... just wanted you to know that I have valued your communications here and hope that you'll continue to voice your perspective to all of us who are on this same road together, learning to relate to others without causing or receiving harm.

[/color]

Yes, amen to that, you said it so well, Hope. Sounds so heartfelt and compassionate, and just want to tell you the same blessing.

Best,
LoH

PS - I really hope I haven't overstepped with you, Hope, by butting in. Not trying to solicit a response, just needed to thank you.

[mudpuppy]

Allow me to butt in also.

I don't think CH was referring to anyone here in particular but was referring to general principles.
If I'm wrong then I'll bow out and watch from the sidelines as the fireworks recommence.
Could someone pass the popcorn?

mud

[Certain Hope]

Sela,

   There will always be people whose personalities conflict. Perhaps you and I are two of those, although I had not yet gone so far as to make that judgement, at this point.

   Generally, when someone's personal style rubs me the wrong way, I simply don't engage with him/her. It doesn't go any deeper than that in my mind, because I won't let it. I don't attempt to analyze the person or assign her a motivation... only maintain a healthy distance. In other words, if I'd been thinking specifically of you when I posted to Storm, I wouldn't have said anything at all, but rather made a point of staying out of it.

   Being fairly new to this forum, I don't know any of the participants very well and certainly have never set out on a mission to insult anyone. Since I had labeled no particular person in my mind as an offender and I hadn't felt compelled to take any particular "side" in the matter, I expressed my own feelings and impressions to Storm without thinking of who had posted what in the past. I never considered it my place to choose sides, nor do I usually feel compelled to act as a mediator, but there are times when I relate more to one particular party in a discussion and may verbalize those feelings to them. At the moment, if I chose to react based on how I feel, I wouldn't even bother to respond here. But at the risk of giving the impression that I'm trying to come across as pious, I apologize to you, Sela, for what appears to be a wound to you that was caused by my ...insensitivity? I don't know.  I don't "feel" like apologizing to someone who just insulted me, but I believe it's the right thing to do. In retrospect, I guess I should have read back through the entire mess to see exactly which poster had used humor in such a way to inspire those feelings of mine which I expressed to Storm. Then, if I still saw a validity in expressing those feelings, I could have initiated a thread on how I sometimes perceive the use of humor as an attempt to deflect attention to critical issues. But somehow I get the feeling that no matter what I say or don't say, someone will take offense because it's within their own self to do so. I am sorry that my words hurt you, Sela. It was not intentional, only careless.
Hope

[Certain Hope]

Mud and Light, thank you both. I hit post despite the warning re: 2 additional replies... which is just as well. Your words are like precious stones right now. Thanks.
Hope

[lightofheart]

Popcorn, how could you say that about popcorn? Don't you know how I feel about popcorn, Mud! What are you implying? Never mind my dog's terror of fireworks! Go ahead, pound my good mood into the ground, do a little dance and eat popcorn and clap besides.

Mercy, if not for my enormous personal growth, boy, would I talk some serious smack and turn a hose on your little show. Popcorn!
Still, always nice to hear from you, Mud, especially when you're not talking to me and let me take the ridiculous high ground like this.

Thanks!

 

PS- Hope, almost cross-posted with you. Thank you so much, I'm really touched by your heartfelt thanks. Your words are precious, too.

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