Introduction and trying to stay on course with divorce

[Portia]

Pavelle

I like to take parts and reply to them. Hope that’s okay? If not, tell me to bug off.

The real issue is me and my inability to accept that fact..no BIG PICTURE. That is *reality* but I sit here, on my computer and feel so sorry for myself, because I lost and it hurts. That damn brick wall again, that damn inexplicable brick wall that is another managment job when you thought it had some love in it for you.

Are you disappointed in yourself? For being drawn in, for falling for the ‘less than real’ one? Hey! These folks can be really very attractive! Yes they are. I feel great around some of them. I feel loved. Wonderful! For a time.

No big deal. I’m human, you’re human. We get drawn in, we like our addictions and familiarity. So what’s next?

The work of it all and I have such a hard time giving in to it, addictive for me. I feel like the heartbreak is too much for me and I cannot fathom why my brain and heart are so broken up. I keep saying to myself "just be logical, just know it, accept accept, you know you cannot win here...it will do you in"

Yes. You can’t win. You can’t lose either. You just get to be….separate and whole. In yourself, not half of another, not fused in love, not so dependant that being apart doesn’t feel okay, not having another dependant on you either (oh that feels good! I’m wanted and needed and have an objective and function in life! BS I tell myself.)

I've never extricated myself from this unloveable self that I took from my Fof origin, and this snares me, that horrible "if only you could sublimate your self better, be more saintly, be more understanding, be absolutely needless...."

Please no. Be selfish, be you, be happy just being. How about it? I love the way you write. Laying yourself bare? Does it feel so?

god how horrid even typing that, scary to even write.

Great. Keep going. Nobody dies. No fear.

 I also know I'd fail, I failed that test all my life, and thank god really.

Yes! 

But the guilt of that fighter in me, that cast off snare of being "bad" for that I still wear it. I still hold it I wish it would go away.

The guilt of being bad? The guilt of being too responsible? The guilt of being human, having needs, being bloody-minded sometimes, being unreasonable, being illogical, having a meltdown, not being perfect?

Join the club. The weird thing is: I’m starting not to care about being bloody-minded and unreasonable. Just starting now. I put it down to suddenly trusting my own opinions, my own gut instincts, my own beliefs and values and actually just starting not to give a fig about what anyone else thinks of me. Sounds awful doesn’t it? I’m beginning to think….no, it sounds okay, it sounds less than perfect, less than some image of 'trying to be', it sounds....human and flawed. How about you?

[mum]

Join the club. The weird thing is: I’m starting not to care about being bloody-minded and unreasonable. Just starting now. I put it down to suddenly trusting my own opinions, my own gut instincts, my own beliefs and values and actually just starting not to give a fig about what anyone else thinks of me. Sounds awful doesn’t it? I’m beginning to think….no, it sounds okay, it sounds less than perfect, less than some image of 'trying to be', it sounds....human and flawed.

Superb, Portia. Just superb.

[Portia]

Mum, Pavelle

Mum, thanks for joining me. I like the tone of this thread, I like the tone of your posts Pavelle, you’re so straight and full-on.

I just read your post on ‘sexualising kids’ and thought (1) like Brenda out of HBO’s Six Feet Under and her N psychiatrist mother and the 70s adult parties where the adults would get too cosy and Brenda watches as a little kid from the doorway (that’s where the sexual similarity stops) and (2) wanting recognition for being a person and not an object. Well my, you’re a person Pavelle, just need to trust that you can give yourself everything you need, all from your own head.

Have you any female friends who tell it like it is? Who don’t give a hoot? Spending time with other women who aren’t caught up in the usual ego-tripping consumerist rubbish might be a respite from the men stuff. Friendship. 

[mum]

Got a song in my head: Bonnie Raitt's "I WILL NOT BE BROKEN".
I highly suggest singing this at the top of your lungs, sisters. (um, even if you don't sound like Bonnie)

[pavelle]

God this board is comforting. Portia thanks, you are re-affirming this stuff I'm working on in therapy.

This shedding of guilt about it all. It's been hard to take, when the N husband is in baby mode, broken mode. I want to deny his reality and forget my own as well. It is an addiction, well not unlike one. I am in recovery, for a good bit now and know that from my relationship to substances. That delusional belief of "well this one time it will work" schema. Never worked, hopeless case. Once I grabbed onto that self acceptance my life got so much better.

I'm trying to integrate the how of that experience here, and that of therapy. Just follow through with actions right now, don't pick up because your brain is a bit broken up, partial to deluding itself. Take feedback, get good support, try to not lie to yourself, take responsibility for only what you do (action wise) be slow, trust the process.

I do well intellectuallly with what is "real" and poorly emotionally. My heart strings are all jumbled up, disbelief, hurt,wounded.

When faced with this lack of coherence, I get an urge to deny the situation and focus on "him" in this really unrealistic light. I see this sad guy who needs nurturing and I'm the one who is denying him. He doesn't know I feel this way, but he can sense it I'm sure. Or not so sure. I've gotten pretty sharp at masking it, which is most likely how he is able to let me be and not call me. I have no Ns for him and that kills him, that insecurity.

I want to deny this is all I am to him, because god that is painful as hell emotionally. I have done all sorts of stuff to defend myself against that reality in the last 3 yrs. I really didn't want to know, who would, let alone someone from my background.

I have a 6 yr old daughter still at home, that is why I'm not allowed to deny this reality. I keep reminding myself of that. The horror of her living with such a selfish model of manhood, even though she has a good real dad, scares me to death. I have no clue how ill he could become, but I have some suspicions that it ain't gonna be pretty. At best he would suck her dry for attention, at worst, I'd rather not think of.

I'm 40, he is infantile. His background in his family is secretive and very bad. He has a sex addiction to porn and chronic masturbation. He often has a very childish manner of interacting in the world, playing videogames and showing off to his mainly child/teen clientele. He likes attention from kids. His mother uses exclusively him, his father and her daycare children for her Ns by overloading them with no boundaries, secretly violating all parental rules of sugary food, cheap toys and anything else like a weird pied piper and telling them "you love aunt M". He lives like a kid, with his N mother, subjugated father, who treat him like a big baby. He takes very minimal responsibility for himself. Though I have never seen an interest in child subjects, I also know he is paranoid and would guard that. I don't know if he would risk openly acting out or venturing to that level yet..yet...yet if ever. I have no clue what really goes on in his head, I wouldn't ever venture to ask.

God this is all so sick. So I'm getting divorced, it isn't just about me. There are things that just don't look too good and I do have the ability to be a bit paranoid myself, or maybe I should just call that "instincts". I really don't want to do this in retrospect, EVER.

I feel guilty about these instincts, who the hell wants to think about such dark things about ones husband's potential? Sometimes it doesn't help me to think this way, other times it does help me, when I need the big gun on myself of strength. No psychology can guarantee what he would or wouldn't do, no patterning. The signs though, are not good for either myself or my daughter in one area: happiness.

Pavelle

[Hopalong]

this sad guy who needs nurturing and I'm the one who is denying him

Nope.
There is nurturing available all over the place for sad guys. They can:
--go into therapy
--join a church
--volunteer and make healthy friends
--work out and eat right

Your gut sensations about him being sexually inappropriate and untrustworthy around your daughter are ABSOLUTE.

And of course...just in case you needed a dealbreaker...this IS IT.

(Doesn't matter if details are proveable or not. Make tracks. Get him out of your and her life.
He can heal himself and grow up if he wants to. If he doesn't, that is his sad chosen destiny.)

You have something better to do. And a child to care for.

Hops

[mum]

Not to, for one instant, devalue your pain....but be thankful you didn't have kids WITH this guy or you would end up like a lot of us....years later, still having to deal with him.

[Portia]

Pavelle

I read all your post. I’m keeping this for me:

Just follow through with actions right now, don't pick up because your brain is a bit broken up, partial to deluding itself. Take feedback, get good support, try to not lie to yourself, take responsibility for only what you do (action wise) be slow, trust the process.

Because I have a brain prone to odd thinking (especially when I ignore my stomach telling me something’s not right). So thanks for the above. It helps me.

I feel guilty about these instincts, who the hell wants to think about such dark things about ones husband's potential?

Would it help to think of EX husband? He’s a man, he’s separate to you, you can think whatever you want to think about him. After what you’ve said, I’m thinking some bad stuff about him too – and that’s my responsibility, not yours, I’m allowed to think whatever I want to too, regardless of what you might want me to think about your posts! Yes? That's my choice.

Sometimes it doesn't help me to think this way, other times it does help me, when I need the big gun on myself of strength.

So use it as the big gun, no worries there. If it works, use it. When it doesn’t work, forget it, not your problem.

No psychology can guarantee what he would or wouldn't do, no patterning.

So what? Not your responsibility and definitely not your responsibility right now. You have enough to think about, without worrying about he may or may not do. Tell you what, when the divorce is over, if you still worry, if you feel a responsibility towards those kids, if you feel a real fear, talk about it then. Right now? If you feel a huge fear (is it realistic), tell someone anonymously. Q: Does me saying that tell you how big your fear is, how realistic? I want to alleviate your perceived responsibility because it’s not helping you. What he might be like has zero to do with you. It's not part of what you're doing right now. Difficult to separate those things out I would imagine. But hey, you're not the only person in the world with eyes and ears.

The signs though, are not good for either myself or my daughter in one area: happiness.

I wouldn’t say that’s for certain. Change is constant. Happiness is a by-product of accepting life as it is I think. I think I see the potential for happiness ahead.

Gotta go for today. Please take care of yourself and your D.

By the way, what do you do just for you? I guess being here is one thing eh? Good! Glad you're here. Back Monday if not before. P

[Brigid]

Pavelle,
I really enjoy reading what you write.  You have an amazing ability to put into words many things I have thought and felt about my childhood, marriage, divorce, children, etc.

I think we could have been married to the same man.  When I discussed with my therapist the secrets and lies regarding pornography and masturbation, sexual addiction, affair(s?)--just the small amount he actually admitted to--my therapist told me that more than likely there was much more that he had done or would do in the future when he no longer had a family around to monitor his behavior.  Since the separation occurred nearly 3 years ago, I have also learned of disturbing sexual behavior of my xfil.  It did all start to make some sense after I started fitting the pieces together, having things recovered on my computer which he had deleted prior to exiting, and many hours of therapy and studying nism.  Prior to that I just felt like I had entered the Twilight Zone and was the one who had gone crazy.

Fortunately for me, my son was already in college and my daughter was old enough (15) to recognize inappropriate behavior and escape from it if necessary when all of this happened.  I am confident that nothing ever happened in the home that involved my children, or they would have said something eventually.  They both are struggling with their relationship with their father now and can't understand his behavior.  They are very disgusted and embarrassed by his ongoing relationship with a married woman, which, I guess, is a good thing.  I don't blame you for having grave concerns about a daughter so young.  It is hard to say what limitations, if any, they actually have.

Please keep posting.  I am finding it so interesting and enlightening.

Brigid

[Portia]

not quite gone

Brenda! She resonated with me and I had no idea why, I just kept following her story, not knowing whether she was 'kewl' or sick....but an attractive, familiar personality to me. She shouted at her mother "why is it always about you?" and that got me thinking (though I was still deep in denial). My mother watched it too and commented to me, admiringly, "isn't Brenda great?"....really enjoying Brenda's sexual exploits and obsessions...(rather like Brenda's mother might have done ...the irony kinda stuck in my throat at the time).

[Certain Hope]

Pavelle,

Definitely bearing with you, here. You are doing very well in being able to communicate at such depth here, I think. My hope is that nothing will stop the flow of thoughts as you reach toward a final understanding of all this, and peace.

You don't sound paranoid to me and I'm wondering whether the word "paranoia" even fits in this situation? In light of what you know to be the facts about this man, can it even be said that he has a potential to act out sexually in a devastating manner? From what I'm understanding here, it doesn't merely seem possible... rather, it seems entirely likely that he would. Personally, I'm of the firm conviction that N is capable of anything, no holds barred. Do you think possibly you need to turn off your understanding of psych for now (I know, easier said than done) and simply allow yourself to respond to the facts as a woman who deserves and needs a safe harbor for herself and her child?  I can see that if you continue pondering the potentials, you might get stuck in a rut of guilt and fear which could blind you to the many unacceptable things you know for certain about this person. Pavelle, I think you have all the answers you need. It's ok to be afraid to know more at this point. There's only so much one human being can take and you've had more than enough. The rest will come in time as you break free of this sense of responsibility for a person who obviously chose long ago to serve himself at the expense of everyone else. Maybe he's been able to control some of his darker desires via the ocd (handwashing, etc), but who knows how long that will satisfy him.. or what other vile compulsions might emerge as he grows older? Do you really want to ponder all of the what if's and what's nexts? I hope not, because there is no limit to the horror when N has a perceived need. Don't reach back into the snake pit when there's so much freedom and light out there waiting for you and your little girl.

Still listening,
Hope

[mum]

There you go, Pavelle.
We choose all of it, from first breath to last. Good morning, soul sleeper. Welcome to being awake.

[Brigid]

I thought this was a second chance at love, a second chance at happiness and I was going to be handed that as a reward for all my struggles.
In reality, that is actually happening but not in the way I pictured it. I had a little girls view of a big rescuer, who would alleviate all the misery and really like me, flatter me and make me special. And for a bit I was special, just like you are when with an N, all the attention is on you. I might not have admitted how little this dream was, but it was from a very long time ago. I wanted and still grieve this dream being just that..a fantasy of a little lonely girl/woman.

Years after I married my second xh, I would wish that we had more intimacy and physicality in our relationship, but I was so grateful that I had met and married this man who I perceived to be the ultimate in kindness, courtesy, family and Christian values, who took his vows to the core of his soul; after divorcing a self-centered, pompous, n-jerk (my father figure) who treated me like property.  I thought I finally had a man in my life who valued me, loved me, who would never do anything to hurt me or our children.

That was the part that made the whole experience for me and for many others taken in by n personalities so difficult--I believed him so totally and completely.  I thought I had become a better person for having known and married him.  I looked to him for guidance, trusted everything he told me and would never, for one second, have believed he would lie and hide things which would be critical to the success of our marriage.  To this day it seems unimaginable how deeply I was sucked in by him.  The fact that he doesn't get now why we can't just be friends as we move forward in life and co-parent our children, is a testament to his lack of empathy for how totally and completely he devastated me.

Some similarities I have experienced are that when he left our home, he went to live with his parents, who openly welcomed him home and rejected me and the kids (after 22 years of marriage).  I believe that part of the reason he could not be sexual with me was that he viewed me more as his mother than as his wife (who wants to have sex with their mother).  He has always been a child in his behaviors--needing to be the center of attention, inability to manage his affairs (money, etc., not women  ), not knowing or caring if what he said or did was inappropriate.  He sees life as one big party and he wants no responsibilities.

Gotta go--more later.

Brigid

[Sela]

Hello Pavelle:

I want to say welcome to this board too.  Gee, you've been through so much.  But you do sound strong and have much going for you, I think.

It also makes it hard, since I am faced with this childlike man, broken and sad.  My natural nurturing instincts run amok within me, I want to "help" like some crazywoman-which is really not helpful.

It sounds like your brain is telling you the correct stuff but your heart is fighting it?  You want to help.
It's good to help.  I wonder if it would help to think:

"The best way I can help this man is to let go of him".

It's true.  You're not helping him get "better" right? 
You'd be doing him a favour.

I feel like the heartbreak is too much for me and I cannot fathom why my brain  and heart are so broken up. I keep saying to myself "just be logical, just know it,   accept accept, you know you cannot win here...it will do you in"

I talk to myself like this too sometimes.  Maybe your brain just has too much information and your heart has a lot of need?  You need to feel loved?  We all do.  Or most people do, eh?  Can you get love elsewhere?
Away from this sick person?

The major goal we probably all have is to get that "self-love" thingy happening.  You do have stuff to love about yourself.  Good stuff.  Can you take account of it?  Really count what you have done right?  Have you survived heartbreak before?  Can you find ways to look after and take care of you?

I do well intellectuallly with what is "real" and poorly emotionally. My heart strings  are all jumbled up, disbelief, hurt,wounded.

I wish I could "cure" you with a big, large, massive cyber-hug.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Pavelle))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I wonder if it would help to work on one emotion at a time?  For instance....with grieving say.....try to really feel whatever if prevalent.....sadness....just cry and cry and allow yourself to release some of it?  Maybe set a sort of time limit (sound ridiculous?).  "I will really feel my sadness and cry for a good 20 min".
Then.....wash your face, go for a walk or cook something for you and your D? 

Baby steps, is what I'm thinking??

There are things that just don't look too good and I do have the ability to be a bit paranoid myself, or maybe I should just call that "instincts". I really don't want to do this in retrospect, EVER.

I agree that you don't sound the least bit paranoid and that this is your ace in the hole.  Remember what you want!  (or actually...what you don't want) and keep it up front in your head??  Would that help?

I was rather an unsympathetic character, who knew, I wasn't letting on, half the time I had no clue...I had to metaphorically: shoot myself in the head to "get it".

That was then, this is now.  It sounds like you've got stuff fairly straight in your head.  Maybe it's just your heart that needs convincing?

I started to write this whole thing about my parents, then deleted it since I started to cry

Did you notice if you felt any better after that release?  It really sounds like you had an awful childhood and maybe you have lot's yet to grieve there?  Baby steps.

I thought this was a second chance at love, a second chance at happiness and  I was going to be handed that as a reward for all my struggles.

All your dreams are smashed?  Another giant huge loss to grieve.
But honestly, Pavelle, you're not dead yet.  It could still happen for you.
I think you have the right idea about working stuff through first and not falling for this junk again.  You can do it!!  Others have done it!!  You can too!

I can offer myself freedom, grow up and face the pain of grieving this and yes,  run to the light that I have denied myself for a lifetime. Or stay in the dark and sleep. It's a painful choice, but the rewards, the push of all the years of work  having a forum...

You might be surprised how soon you feel better.  This man isn't answering any of your dreams or meeting any of your needs or doing a thing for....you.  True freedom will come as soon as you let go of him.  The rest will follow.  I guarantee it!!

  Sela

[Certain Hope]

Dear Pavelle,

   Some people say that God is the God of second chances. I've discovered by His grace and mercy that He's the God of 3'rd, and 4th, and multiple ongoing opportunities to receive blessings and a new beginning.
  After a 15-year marriage to an emotionally barren man who refused to maintain appropriate sexual boundaries with our children, I met my "second chance" (or so I thought). He turned out to be NPD. A huge part of my motivation to continue trying to make it work with him was a deep sense of revulsion at the idea of failing again. He was "it". He was my 2nd chance... my "saviour"... ahhhh.... no, straight from the pit of hell, he was. Still gives me cold chills. Anyhow, I do understand the depth of commitment we feel when we're engaged in what we view as possibly our last chance at happiness. Don't believe it. There's no limit to God's grace. I also understand the "better the devil that you know" line of thinking and the many ways a person might rationalize staying in an awful relationship. But this isn't just a bad relationship, it's a walking death.
   I felt sorry for my ex. I loved him. I thought I knew his vulnerabilities and I wanted to take care of him, to bring joy to his life, to honor the vows I'd made. I'd still be with him if he hadn't threatened me physically (thank You, Lord, for that!)  Now I know that you don't ever have to worry about whether N will make it without you. You already know in your heart and mind both that you can't fix him, so please consider this:  he will be fine. As fine as an N can be, that is. I don't think there is a stronger sense of self-preservation existant in any human being than an N. Interesting, since they supposedly have no "self"     He'll be fine, Pavelle, and maybe that's the part that really hurts. He doesn't need you. You can't redeem him and even if you could, he wouldn't let you, but there is redemption available. I pray you'll receive it along with the new beginning that's available.

With love,
Hope


 P.S.  I thought surely God must hate me for being so utterly foolish and stupid. For awhile, I thought N was my punishment for past sins. Another lie from the pit.