Confusion over B/F's girlfriend.

[Hopalong]

One more hint, Jackie...and anybody who's ever yearned for a great summary of the BEHAVIORAL RED FLAGS of men with these issues:

Men Who Can't Love by Stephen Carter and Julia Sokol.

It was not just an eye-opener for me. It was a peel 'em open, pop 'em out and put 'em on a bed of lettuce type of book. Staggering, for a "self-help" book.

Jackie...I really think this book would help you.

Chin up, you're at the threshold of such growth, one foot over...

Hops

[mum]

Stormy, this(below) is soooo wonderfully put. I am cracking up. Your story is so empowering, I feel like it would be quite a scene in a movie, and the audience (of women) stand up and cheer!!!

didn't trust myself not to raise my voice and lower my public language standards at the same time.

And Hops: I still don't know how you come up with this verbal imagery. (below) amazing!

It was not just an eye-opener for me. It was a peel 'em open, pop 'em out and put 'em on a bed of lettuce type of book

Jackie: hope you are still with us, sister. Sending love.

[Hops]

I understand and agree with all you said, Brigid...
but just wanted to add in case Jackie misunderstood--

Jackie, don't be ashamed of coming here to unburden yourself to strangers!

We ALL have. We ALL do when we're new.

(And soon maybe we won't feel like strangers at all.)

You doing okay?

Hopalong

[Brigid]

Thanks Hops for pointing out my somewhat insensitive way of expressing myself.  I'm sorry, Jackie, for coming on so strong, but certainly no shame intended.  Trust me, I have been where you are and made more than my share of bad decisions about boyfriends and husbands.  I wish I had had the good sense to even question some of the bad behaviors I was allowing, much less ask for help.

But now that I am in a new (1 year+), very healthy and fun relationship, and I am a new, healthy and pretty fun person, I know that if there was a problem in the relationship and I did not feel comfortable talking to my b/f about it, that would be a big red flag.  The "experts" always talk about how important communication is to a successful relationship.  Those of us who didn't have our voices, probably thought it did not apply to us and allowed the other member of the relationship to run the show with no questions asked. 

Finding your voice and being able to express it and require that you be treated with love, kindness and respect from someone with whom you are in a relationship, is such a big part of healing the damage of n relationships.  Recognizing that a behavior or series of behaviors is not acceptable, is a big step in the right direction.  The next big step is being able to discuss it with him and being prepared to walk away from him if you don't like the outcome.  Don't settle for scraps and crumbs.  You deserve better than that and with some help, you will come to that realization.

Brigid

[Jackie45]

I need help in making a decision to stay with him or leave. I have no confidence in my own ability to act on my feelings of outrage over this incident so I am asking YOU on this board for some assistance. I would place his behavior at about 4-5 on the "Bad behavior' scale ( A score of 1 would be mild party flirtiong and a 10 score would be sexual infidelity)
Any input is welcome.

Jackie

[Certain Hope]

Hi Jackie,

I wonder whether what's got you stuck is the idea that outrage is necessary before leaving an undesireable relationship.
I mean, must we really be furious before we can take action? Is anger the only catalyst we have at our disposal?  Must the abuse scale reach a 10 before we are able to interpret someone else's behavior as unacceptable to us and determine that it's not in our best interests to remain in that union?

Another thing to consider... is it really necessary to decide right this minute whether you'll stay or leave? That seems like very black and white thinking to me. There are plenty of gray areas in human relationships (although I'm not suggesting that this is one of those). Perhaps you could simple take a step or two back from intimacy with this person and allow yourself time to sort through your thoughts and feelings. The main thing for you, I think, is not what you decide re: this particular dilemma, but that you get to the core issues behind your perceived lack of confidence. Is there anything further you can think of that might help you to do that?

Hope

[pennyplant]

Hi Jackie,

I am uncomfortable with the idea of telling you, "yes, leave him" or "no, give him another chance."  It is your life and you know him while I don't.  Also, I have very little experience with picking a boyfriend or partner as I have been married to my one and only boyfriend for 23 years and counting.  Little real world experience.

I have been reading along with this thread because it does speak to some issues in my life with someone who is possibly N or has N spots and who sort of pulled me into his orbit.  I have been badly hurt by this person but have grown and learned from the experience.  I keep this person in my life in order to learn more and also see what is possible as far as growth for someone who is made like him.

This is completely different, I think, from keeping a person in my life with the  hopes of a long term, mutually fulfilling relationship.  I would not do that with this particular friend of mine (if I were available for that kind of thing)  because I don't think he is capable of it at any level I would be satisfied with.  He is a lot like the many examples people have already shared here.  In other words, not husband material, or partner material, for someone like me.

Jackie, I would be surprised if very many people on the board will tell you specifically what to do.  That is a simple solution for a problem that has probably been brewing throughout your whole life.  And it is really not anybody else's responsibility but your own.

Maybe keep reading through the responses until something clicks for you.  There is a lot of helpful advice and guidelines right here within this one thread.  I often have to read things many times over some days or weeks before I learn what I need to learn.  And there is more to it than just one boyfriend and one particular decision.  A big decision, I'll grant that, but even once you decide about him, there will be the rest of your life to navigate.  And it's all related, imho.

Also, Hope has made several important points about this not being black and white and also the wisdom of taking a step back and taking your time.  Very good questions, too, about how much anger is necessary and is anger the only emotion to use here.  I never thought of these things before and I would say these are very important considerations.

Pennyplant

[Hopalong]

Hi Jackie,
I can offer this. (I think part of the issue is panic, which may be preventing you from receiving what's offered.)

You deserve a relationship with a man who is an 8 or 9 on the good scale. Your struggle, as you know...is with yourself. Men like him are everywhere...and so are loyal, kind men who know what it means to toy with someone (or two someones) and would choose not to rationalize it away.

Immobility is a characteristic that someone like him could take a great deal of advantage of. (And perhaps already has.)

I spent literally decades fixating on men who were ambivalent. I felt it was my mission to persuade them that I was worthy enough to have their committed love and loyalty. It NEVER, EVER worked.

Perhaps instead of all this struggle over whether your assessment of him is adequate to make a decision...you could try another approach. What if you focused on (lovingly) assessing yourself, your own behavior in staying or going or stepping back. What would each of these actions say about your search for happiness, in terms of what you want your life to become? If you don't love yourself now...do you want to? Is that a goal?

If you were someone else, a person you trusted profoundly, a person you respected because you felt NO confusion about whether they truly were wise about life and very good...and who would never, ever advise anyone to do something that was not to help them grow and heal...

If you were THAT person, even for five minutes, what would you tell Jackie right now?

I believe you have enough imagination to think your way out of the box you've put yourself in. I believe you need to stop listening to the voice that says: I can't! I can't make a healthy decision! I can't evaluate anything! I can't think! I can't learn! I can't observe! I can't draw rational conclusions! I can't protect myself! I can't create happiness in my life! I can't change!

You could try a simple exercise of speaking aloud, louder and louder, to yourself, alone in a room:
I can. I can make a healthy decision. I can evaluate what's good for me. I can think. I can learn. I can observe. I can draw rational conclusions. I can protect myself. I can create happiness in my life. I can change.

Another one might be: I can read a book someone recommends. You can read the book I mentioned in just a few hours. You have nothing to lose by reading it. You might have a lot to gain.

(I know you're frustrated that noone here is stepping in to take the responsibility of making your decision. Ask yourself, why would all these different people who have spent so much time sharing and struggling and talking with each other here about issues just as challenging as my own...all be saying such similar things to me now? Why would that be happening?)

Try to calm your panic and truly think about these things. I believe you're reacting out of fear and have convinced yourself that you can't think. I have a ot of sympathy for this...I know the desperate feeling of panic. I remember one of the strangest pieces of therapy to me was that all the books on panic disorder kept telling me, remember, even though your heart is palpitating and you can't breathe and you feel like you're going to faint, die, have a heart attack or go crazy...those are just the sensations of panic and they will pass. You're not going to die.

I am completely confident that you know how to think. And it's not going to harm you to do it.

Your Dad was wrong about you.

Hops

[Jona22]

Jacky

You say you have feelings of outrage over the incident with your boyfriend.  However, you place his behavior on a scale of 1 to 10 at a 5.  This doesn't sound like outrage to me.  It sounds like irritation.  If you are feeling outrage then I think you would put it at a 9 or 10 and then you would have your answer.

Are you only feeling irritated but you are wondering if you should feel outrage?  Or are you feeling outraged and wondering if you should only feel irritated?  I guess it depends on where your personal boundaries are.  Those of us who have or have had a N parent often have problems setting good boundaries and are often willing to take more abuse than we should.

You have only known this man for two months.  You think he might be an N or at least have N spots.  So it is not just this incident that is making you feel unsure if you should continue the relationship. 

If you decide that you don't like what you see and want to break it off, all you have to do is tell him, "This isn't working for me."  You don't have to give any explanations or justifications.  Just, "This isn't working for me."

If you decide to continue on, you can back up a little and not see him as often.  Just take a step back.  Having sex with him at this early stage in the relationship makes things more complicated.  Complicated for you, not for him.  Women tend to bond with men they have sex with.  Men don't.  That is just the way we are made.  That is why it is wise to hold off on intimate relations until you can clearly see what a man is like and what his intentions are.


Do you have an agreement between the two of you that you are exclusive.  Has he made this agreement with you or are you just assuming that you are exclusive?  You don't have to answer these questions here on this board.

Personally, his behavior with the phone call coupled with other red flags that he may be a N would make me run for the hills as fast as I could go.  There are lots and lots of good men out there in every age group.  You won't find one of them if you are stuck trying to make a relationship work that isn't working for you.

[Hops]

Hi Jackie,
Read this on Slate.com and thought of you, or of anyone in a similar situation:

Dear Prudie,
I am having casual sex with this guy. I really like him. He says he isn't ready for a relationship. How will I know when he is?

—Wondering

Dear Wondering,
When he stops having casual sex with you, you check out why, and you learn he's in a relationship with someone else.

—Prudie

Hops