Confusion over B/F's girlfriend.

[Jackie45]

Hi , I am new and in confusion about something that happened to me in my relationship.
 I suspect that my B/F may have N tendencies OR he and I do not sit on the same page morally or ethically - (WE are in our 40's)

A week ago my B/F called me and invited me over to his place on a Saturday afternoon.
(WE have been dating and sexually intimate and rather intense for two months. I really feel a powerful attraction toward him and he makes it clear that he wants me too- BUT he has told me that there is another woman who is in his life . HE has known her for about a year and claims that they are just friends and meet for coffee and chat. They areboth educators.....It is obvious that she wants more and has made this clear to him, but he says no romance.)
Anyways, I drive over to his place last Saturday and we wind up being intimate which was really great . He gets out of bed  to get a cool drink and his cell rings . HE says," hello", and then quickly walks out of the bedroom and down the hall. I can hear him talking way in the distance. He talks for about 5 minutes and then comes back to bed. I am more than curious.

Eventually, I go home aand we agree to meet again in a few hours for dinner at a local restaurant.
After dinner I gentle ask him about the phone call. He eventually admitted that it was his woman friend, AND that he and she made a date to meet her the next day for coffee after work .
I am annoyed aand disturbed but I am not sure of my grounds.

Is this a dealbreaker OR just part of the dating scene in middle age.
Is he just a little insensitive OR is this a major violation?
Help me with this,please.

Jackie

[Hopalong]

Oh dear. (Hi, and welcome, Jackie!)

I think this is one of those things that people will call in different ways, depending on how they view commitment, monogamy, intimacy. For some, having sex doesn't imply any real primacy with a person. For me...totally.

I know I wouldn't have much trouble with a BF who had good female friends...since I think that's healthy. But for me, a BF encouraging private (secret phone conversation down the hall) cozy connection with a female friend who hankers after more with him... would be a dealbreaker.

For me in reading your account there are several key things that pop out, that I can comment on (from my own sense of values, and after loooooong train of "learning by failure"):

--Two months is too soon for me for intimacy. I am more interested in taking about SIX months to get to know someone. One I hit the sheets, my brain leaves. So I need to do some very rational thinking before I make myself vulnerable to that level of bonding (which, Confucius say, is a very different thing for most women, compared to most men).
--I think in what you describe, what would bother me most, or signal a red flag, is the fact that he left the room to talk to her out of your earshot. That suggests a level of secrecy and non-disclosure about his relationship with her that I would feel uncomfortable about, likely.
--The next step for me would be to ask that I meet her and that we socialize together, pronto. Have her for dinner, do several things in a row with her (and preferably have her bring a date)...so you've also had a chance to read the signals.

Oddly, I had this exact scenario with my last Nbf. I actually told him calmly that him keeping me apart from her, and vice versa (when he'd said she wanted more with him)...made it unacceptable to me. He avoided bringing the two of us together and suddenly he never mentioned her again. A year later, shortly before we broke up, I did meet her at a gathering. And it was completely obvious from the poor woman's expression that she was besotted with him. All to say, I am certain that he kept stringing her along...and likely is today. N's LOVE it when people are besotted with them.

I think it is totally horrible to lead anybody on, once they've let it show that they're yearning for romance and you know that you will never reciprocate that feeling. If that's true about your BF, then I think it's unkind to keep stringing her along. If they BOTH felt nothing but no-sparks friendship, no problem. But in that case, you'd likely have met her already.

Once again I ramble on too long...hope it helps. Others here will have better wisdom on this. It's a sore subject with me, since it was one of many red flags I talked myself out of responding to. A wasted year resulted.

Hopalong

[lightofheart]

Hi, and welcome, Jackie,

For what it's worth (less than two cents, as your take on this relationship is all that matters) these are questions I'd ask a friend who told me the story you described. Not looking for answers, or to grill anyone, just 'cause I think questions are a good way to nail down feelings. imho, the best help is usually a matter of self-help and realizing what's in your own head/heart about a situation.

If you suspect your boyfriend has N tendences or the two of you aren't on the same page morally or ethically, how do you feel about cotinuing to sleep with him? You said you're confused, did you mean about your ethics, romantically confused, or both?

Why do you think he told you, his sexual partner, that his woman friend either directly told him or suggested that she wanted him romantically? Do you trust him? Do you think he wants you trust him?

If she did say or suggest that, do you think it speaks well of him that he continues to have an intimate friendship with her--phone calls, one-on-one dates--despite her wanting more? How would you want to be treated in her shoes? How would you handle the situation if you were in his shoes?

How did you feel about him taking a call from another woman, in private, minutes after sex with you? Can you imagine yourself doing that if the call were a man for you? If you felt 'more than curious', why did you wait until that evening to ask him about it?

Do you think you need grounds for feeling annoyed and disturbed? Did you tell your boyfriend that's how you feel?

This one's a little blunt, sorry, but I think it's a biggie: do you feel empowered in this relationship to ask for what you want/need and to speak up when he's insensitive or his behavior equals a major violation? Do you have an equal say in things, or want one?

What do you want/demand from a romantic partner? Does this relationship/boyfriend fit the bill?

I think you get to decide what's a dealbreaker, if you want to, and whether the situation you've described is full of red flags or not.

Hope you get everything you want, Jackie.

LoH

[Jackie45]

I am confused about what ISSUES there are in my experience with him on THAT occasion.
I had an N dad and  have no confidence in my own feelings about being badly treated.
I am looking to YOUR input to guide my own perceptions. Is what my B/F did OK. ?
IF not, what do you call what he did.
I am disturbed by his behavior but I am struggling to name it.
I need a hand here.
Jackie.

[Hopalong]

Hi Jackie,
I understand the comfort of being able to describe something, the anxiety of not having it come easily.

On this board there is so much respect for each person finding their own voice. With caring support, but we each take what we can from others' responses, and then walk our own walk. We can certainly say what the same situation would mean for us, if it was happening to us.

So...not being you, I can only try to describe how this situation would affect me:

--I would not feel happy or safe with this man because of his ambiguous and secretive behavior with the other woman...IF I were still in the grip of my old habit of not feeling I "deserved" more than being used for sex but not truly cared for or loved.

--I would not respect him as much because I would believe he was hurting her. (I think it's important for women not to automatically view "rivals" as the "enemy". We are all sisters and have often been hurt in very similar ways by men with very similar patterns.) So I would feel...if he'll treat another woman's heart so carelessly, my turn will inevitably come.

Back to you--you are the one who matters in this. I am wondering if perhaps what's more important than naming his behavior (which I--as me---might name "indifference" or "disrespect")...is taking some action, responding to it--for yourself. It sounds as though on some level you have identified that this is "bad treatment".

I remember an older woman, a kind of lively Amazon (over 6 feet) who led a support group I was in. She had a really incisive habit. When a woman would start saying in response to a question, "I don't know, I don't know..." she would lean in, pat her on the knee and say immediately "If you DID know. Just keep going." This would often lead to a woman "trying on" the experience of trusting and valuing herself. Her own feelings and her own opinions. It changed people.

You could try that dialogue with yourself. "I don't how I should feel about this man..." Inner Amazon: "If you DID know. Keep going." You: I feel "________" I want "___" I don't want ______" (Just try it out, tell your mirror.)

I am so sorry about the damage from your Ndad...how he invalidated you to the point that it's hard to know what your own feelings are. But no matter what your Dad did, you DO have a whole inner self. It's your birthright. You may need help finding her, but she's waiting. A strong woman who wants to speak.

Hopalong

[Anansi]

Ns are split (body-soul).  One person for love and another for lust.  What a cozy set up he's trying to establish.  One is his mother and the other his lover.  
Do you think his charming and seductive talk makes you repress your dignity and instincts?  Are you becoming more split in the name of modern times?  
Any man that strings a woman along, because he gets N supply and takes advantage of the woman staying because she believes with time he will change his mind, is unkind, is a dealbreaker in my book.  
If this man had integrity, he wouldn't make friends with her knowing that she's in pain and that her heart is breaking even though she doesn't realize it.  
Save yourself.

Hope this helps,
Anansi

[Jackie45]

Thanks so far to all the folk who replied.  I do have an inner warning system but the signals that I get are not clearand obscure . I do not have a sense of being firmly 'outraged' enough to walk away from him after I review this incident.
 I am wondering whether this is because my sense of entitlement to respectful treatnment is underfunctioning OR is it because his behavior was really not so bad...??
How many of you would leave a relationship after such treatment and how many of you would just shrug it off and be 'understanding' that he needs other friends and walking out on him would be just a big tantrum.
Jackie.

[axa]

Jackie,

your post has brought up all sorts of things for me.  I cannot go into them now but reading them and the replies has set off another sense of awareness.

Moonlight did you say a 3 d chessboard...............the dimensions are increasing for me.

What wonderful teachers you all are.

axa

[Hopalong]

Hi Jackie,
What I would like to do, and intend to do if I get involved and face the same issue (but I'm hoping I'll take plenty of time so I know a person well enough to spot character warnings)...is take back control.

For me, the choice would be leaving,because I have made myself a promise that red flags as serious clues to serious problems THAT I NO LONGER CHOOSE TO TRY TO FIX by sacrificing my potential for happiness.

But it wouldn't be a tantrum. Just a calm statement that the relationship has been fun but it isn't working out for me, so I am ending it, and best of luck. (If he wants to "be friends" I'd say that might work eventually, but please don't call for a year, I like a clean break.) If he asked me why, I'd just say something like, "I've come to realize that what I want is a wholehearted relationship, not just sex, and you're not really available for that kind of commitment."

I think you should make the choice and use the words that feel right for you. You might try a quiet session with yourself, where you do ask yourself each question posed in these posts, and listen for an answer deep inside. It may be a very small voice for now, but listening and trusting yourself will make it stronger. If you can't hear it at all at times, that's okay, stay kind to yourself, and always remind yourself that you are good, you can think, you can feel, and you can learn. Do these "check in" sessions with yourself every day: "I think______" "I want _____" "I feel ________" and eventually they will be a natural process that guides you into a relationship that is reciprocal, fun, supportive, and mutually committed.

Don't berate yourself for learning as you go, as that drowns out your inner guide. Love yourself intentionally.

Hope this helps,

Hops

[Brigid]

Welcome Jackie,

How many of you would leave a relationship after such treatment and how many of you would just shrug it off and be 'understanding' that he needs other friends and walking out on him would be just a big tantrum.

Depends on what part of my life you're looking at as to how I would/could answer that question.  Before all my therapy, self-reflection, healing the inner wounds of n father damage--leading to 2 now exn husbands; I would have shrugged it off and assumed it was part of his personality and what made him charming, and I did not deserve better. 

I honestly don't think this is an either/or situation.  This is a situation that demands an honest discussion between the two of you that examines what is going on between the 2 of you and the 2 of them.  A 2 month relationship is still a very new one and as Hops said, everyone has different rules as to their expectations after intimacy has been introduced.  I would agree that when it occurs, it better only be with me--but those are my rules and you and/or he may have different ones.

The fact that you are looking to complete strangers to help you decide if his behavior is acceptable rather than talking to him about it, does not bode well for the relationship, imho.  If you care about each other (out of the sack as well as in), you should be able to talk about something which concerns you or makes you uncomfortable.  If you are afraid of upsetting him or having him end the relationship because of a discussion about this, that also does not bode well.

You obviously know in your heart that what he is doing is not quite right or you wouldn't be here.  You need to decide if you can continue to live with it, or some kind of change needs to occur.  If he is good B/F material, he will listen to your concerns and be willing to make adjustments to keep the relationship moving forward.  If he isn't, I guess you have the answer to your question.

Brigid

[lightofheart]

Hi again Jackie,

Thanks for spelling out the  input you were after. I'm sorry I offered the opposite. I almost asked what help you wanted, and should have. Posting here, I try to stick to my own voice, encourage others to use theirs. This place is very supportive around validation and voice-claiming; hope you'll find it helpful, too. imho, your voice sounds strong. You write with a lot of clarity, despite the confusion.

I had an N dad and  have no confidence in my own feelings about being badly treated.

[/color]

It must be hard to carry that and try to figure out a relationship at the same time? I hope you're getting some distance between how your Dad may have treated you and who you are, and the good things you deserve in any relationship.

I am looking to YOUR input to guide my own perceptions. Is what my B/F did OK. ?
IF not, what do you call what he did.
I am disturbed by his behavior but I am struggling to name it.
I need a hand here.

[/color]

For me, it wouldn't be okay. I'd call it manipulative and narcissistic, and unfeeling toward both the woman on the phone and you. Besides whatever encouragement or mixed signals he's giving her, I think he's also telling you, 'Yes, I have someone waiting in the wings who wants me terribly at this second.' The implication: You better treat me just so, and be happy with whatever I give or don't give you, or I can snap my fingers and have her in two seconds. I think it's a way to keep you thinking of him as someone to win.

One question I didn't ask last time, 'cause it sounded too blunt: Can you think of any good motivation for him telling you this woman wants him while he continues to see her? I can't. For what it's worth, I think a 40-year-old man who's at that level of emotional immaturity and games (who can't even be thoughtful in the afterglow of sex) is probably not capable of treating you respectfully.

I hope that doesn't hurt to hear? I don't mean to disparage your boyfriend, I'm sure he has great qualities, but you sound like a more caring and clear person than he is. Some people just don't think much about ethics or morals, or try to live them in their relationships.

imho, Hops makes great suggestions about your inner guide and loving yourself intentionally. I think that's what we carry everywhere.

Best to you, Jackie,
LoH

[mudpuppy]

Hi Jackie,

Part of the reason I hang around here is to talk to women who are looking to excuse lousy behavior by men and let them  see there is no excuse.
And the reason so many of us get away with it is because women let us.
Women are to be treated gently by men and respected;  made to feel the center of the universe, not one among many.
I don't think he deserves your attenton.

I suspect that my B/F may have N tendencies OR he and I do not sit on the same page morally or ethically - (WE are in our 40's)

That could be an AND not an OR in the middle of your sentence.

If its just an innocent friendship why does he say ' hello' in your prescence then scuttle off down the hall when he hears it's her?

I am disturbed by his behavior but I am struggling to name it.

Try disrespect.

How many of you would leave a relationship after such treatment and how many of you would just shrug it off and be 'understanding' that he needs other friends and walking out on him would be just a big tantrum.

If he wants friends he can go fishing with his buddies not have coffeee with a woman who wants to have sex with him.

An unclear signal from your inner warning system is as bad as a clanging siren. If it isn't saying yes it's saying no.
There are men who will not drive you to an internet forum to try and understand whether their behavior is acceptable.

mud

[lightofheart]

Mud,

Do you realize how much $$ we could rake in cloning you/your outlook toward women?

Lucky thing we don't know which pond to yank you from...

[mum]

Quote
How many of you would leave a relationship after such treatment and how many of you would just shrug it off and be 'understanding' that he needs other friends and walking out on him would be just a big tantrum.

Depends on what part of my life you're looking at as to how I would/could answer that question.  Before all my therapy, self-reflection, healing the inner wounds of n father damage--leading to 2 now exn husbands; I would have shrugged it off and assumed it was part of his personality and what made him charming, and I did not deserve better.

HI, Jackie. I just quoted what Brigid wrote because it is almost exactly what I would have written (only I wouldn't have done such a great job...see below) ...exactly, right down to the 2 exN husbands (and except for the N dad, substitute twisted take on religious dogma there).

When I first read your post....I was instantly reminded of an eerily similar time with my second exN, before I married him (talk about denial!!!).
I went to the climbing gym with my buddy and he said he would be going out for his weekly happy hour with a woman he has known for years that was "kind of a girlfriend" in the past...but "not now". So I said, how about my buddy and I, or just I, meet you after climbing for a beer (this was when I used to drink some). He said NO, "I don't think she (his "friend") would be comfortable meeting you because you are so much more beautiful than she is and she has a bit of a physical disability and she would feel bad meeting you. Plus she was really sad when I told her we couldn't have sex anymore because I had someone I really cared about now" (they had a "friends with occassional sex" situation before me).

I'm falling off my chair now, reading that because it is sooo absurd and transparent, in retrospect and soooooo not what I am about now, but there it was. Alarms went off beyond compare and I thought I was so cool "acting" on my instincts when I told him I didn't want him having a "female friend' who I couldn't meet....or I wouldn't see him anymore. So he cooled it with her, told her he couldn't see her this way anymore. I was satisfied with the result and kept seeing him. I had NO clue what the whole thing meant in the big picture, because I was so used to not listening to myself, and thinking everyone else's opinion mattered more, especially if they were a good looking man who told me I was cute.

BUT, it happened yet again, as he was stringing on another ex girlfriend, it seemed, and the same routine happened again. And then I married the moron! I don't think this one "cheated" on me like the first and mightiest N ex, but the point is this:

I HAD NO IDEA what my boundaries were. I HAD NO IDEA what I wanted or deserved. I did not exist, as I was a reaction to everyone and everything else.
Why had I lost myself? Well, life with an N (the first ex in my case) just scrambles people up. That's what they do to us. Then we spend the rest of our lives trying to figure out what's ok and what's not ok. BUT WE KNOW IT ALREADY!!!!!  We choose these people and the pain they bring us so as to learn something! What do you need to learn?

The reason everyone here is trying to tell their own experiences, and ask you questions, and NOT just tell you what to do is this:
YOU have to take your life back!!! THAT I will tell you! No one can do this for you, because if we do....where are YOU in this????

If I knew you I would take you out for coffee, probably grab you by the shoulders and say "WAKE UP, Sweetie!!".
Sex is just sex. What you have with this guy is NOT LOVE....and you deserve LOVE. If not from him....how about towards yourself?

Hang in there,Jackie. I know I sound like I am screaming (ok, I am) but this story is old....and so many of us have been there...and also didn't even know it. Hind sight is 20/20, and I recall many people shaking me, too. But I had to do it for myself. The power is internal. The change is internal. So is the love, hard as it is to believe.

[Jona22]

Jackie

I echo everything everyone else has said.  After I divorced my N-husband, I had a boyfriend who used the other woman (she's just a friend) technique.  Yes, I think it was a technique.  It keeps two women on their toes thinking that if they don't do everything just right, she will lose him to the other woman.  He may be telling the other woman the same thing about you.  You are just a friend as far as he is concerned, but he knows you want more than that.  Two women competing for one man equals heaven.

This is a totally unacceptable situation.  Even if he promised to stop seeing or talking to the other woman, it would be unacceptable.  If you were the girl of his dreams, he wouldn't dare even mention another woman.  He would be too frightened of losing you.  Now that doesn't mean that you are not a dream girl--you are some man's dream girl. 

To me the biggest red flag is that he mentioned the other woman in the first place.