Narcissist's Victims

[Hopalong]

Thank you too, Plucky.
I see much of this in spoiled suburban white kids too...but in my town it seems more often to be OVER-engagement on the part of the parents. Sort of so engaged with racking up the activities that the children turn into social objects to be shuttled and hustled from one thing to the next. Used as vehicles for the parents' status-seeking.

By mentioning a "construct" about some African Americans, I did not mean to be racist. At all.

I hate it as much as I hate sexism.

It is a truth that sometimes I am surprised to see young mothers not holding their child's hand. I'm sorry if I shouldn't have said so...but I try hard to imagine why it's sometimes that way. I think sometimes such thoughts are forbidden, but it's better to get them out and look at them.

Maybe my careless writing in that post did show racist leakage (I am a southern white person and for all my agonizing over race issues since childhood, I know I still have unconscious racist thoughts. I catch them in my head at times--things like, watch out, here come a loud group of male black teenagers, and I tense up sometimes. I literally scold myself...but I don't pretend the thoughts are never there. It's white privilege that I'm working on now...coming at it from that angle seems to improve my awareness). My town is still quite segregated and I rant about it among well-intentioned do-good friends a lot. And I have known it to be wrong since my protected, mostly-white-world childhood.

I have made friends of all sorts. But the gulf is there.

It's very painful but it's good to talk about it, make mistakes, call each other on them.

Thank you too, Plucky.

Hops

[Plucky]

Sugarre,
Thank you. very much. for weighing in. I was beginning to feel very very worried out here.  I was thinking that there was not even one person who even saw anything wrong with what was said.  Now I know there is one!   Still it is concerning.  I can only imagine what someone might think whose race is directly targetted by these negative stereotypes.  I know in that case I might not be able to feel supported up on the board any more, especially knowing that it was a non-issue to most, or even worse, they agree.

Thank you Hoppy for trying to respond, though I have to say I found your response unsatisfying too.  But I appreciate that you took the time to consider the issue and write down your thoughts.

There have been a few experiences that have opened my eyes and I want to share one.
I was on a train in the east coast of the US some years ago.  A group of three young African American boys was on the crowded train.  when the conductor got to them, it turned out they had bought the wrong kind of ticket, a very easy thing to do as the ticket machine was complex.  It happened all the time.

The conductor, an older white man, was clearly very uncomfortable wth them and began to get agitated, apparently assuming that they had done it on purpose in order to skip the fare.   He raised his voice and acted more and more excited, ignoring anything the kids were saying.

One of them said to him in a calm clear voice, ok, let's just keep it down, and we can work this out.

He then realised, I guess, that he was overrreacting, and calmed down, calculated how much more they would have to pay, and the transaction was completed.

The youngsters were no more than 14 or so...they were wearing school uniforms.

Can you imagine the presence of mind that child had to have?  And would have to continue to have to survive in his world?  The constant slings and arrows he will have to shrug off?  Can you imagine having to prepare your son to cope with people who will feel irrational fear at just the sight of him?  Who will automatically assume the worst about him in the most innocuous of situations?

Now that I have children, I just mourn for all the times that something will go wrong and somebody's son will go down the tubes.

Plucky

[Plucky]

PS Magnolia, I am sorry to have hijacked your thread. I got caught up.
Plucky

[Hopalong]

Plucky,
I feel badly that you may be misunderstanding me...

I talk about race awareness, racist experience, a LOT. With my black friends and white. I am often the first person to bring it up. I have raised a stink at my church because of my fury over some unaware signals.

It is painful to be "graded".  I really was trying to think out loud through some things I see. I risk being misunderstood. I am more sensitized than you may realize. To me there is a similar horror in seeing the way young girls behave. I feel great pain over it, and it's more han "liberal guilt."

I grew up watching black people be demeaned. I was horrifed by it. Every time I went anywhere in this town. It was the main reason I insisted on going to college in a more northern city.

It has haunted and troubled my relationship to my home town and does to this day. I was in a passionate discussion about how it's only slightly under the surface, just two nights ago.
I went to the Impact meeting because of the despair and frustration I've felt about it. I've gone and whammed nails at a Habitat site and despaired because there was unconscious segregation even among the dogooders. WHILE WE WERE BUILDING THE HOUSE. I went and tried to share my lunch with the equity builders and they were uncomfortable. To bridge the gap without condescension is horribly difficult. Sometimes we just have to be honest and let our misperceptions show.

This issue is America's torture --the world's-- and has a large space in my soul.

I am sure I posted sloppily and inadequately there...I hope you can try to have some faith in me though.

I wanted to acknowledge RM's empathy for the child. I didn't know what was coming next. It did disturb me. Sorry I didn't react quickly or correctly. I'm very tired and not feeling mentally sharp.

I have had more moments of awareness like yours on the train than I can count. Crazy pain.

I should have known better than to air tricky thoughts like that on a board, though. I do wish you knew me...here, in my community.

I am glad you are very sensitized to stereotypes and I appreciate you pointing out how easily one can slide into them without great, great care.

Hops

[Plucky]

I'm sorry Hopalong,
and thank you for pointing out that I did not pay attention of much of what you said.  You deserve points for considering the situation, for expressing an opinion, for being willing to expose your own issues.  All of us have these issues and all I really expect is a dialogue, and you were brave enough to engage.  I'm not in a position to grade anybody.  I'm in horror of my own thoughts sometimes and of my own shortcomings.   
I am going to stop posting about this.  Because nearly no one on this board cares about it.
No more pearls before swine,
Plucky

[reallyME]

Plucky,

Thank you for your synopsis on the neglected children in America. I totally agree with you and will also say that children all over the world in some forms are neglected, abused, spoiled in some way.  I'm majoring in Child Development in College, hoping to make the difference in a child's life in some way, or a parent's life to not affect the child.  I can't stand by and watch people's lives fall apart, without at least using my voice to try and expose and stop it where I'm able.

Laura

[Hops]

Thanks, ((((((((((((Plucky))))))))))))).
It's okay.
It is incredibly painful to contemplate the way human beings treat each other.
On the basis of skin color, gender, country, you name it. It really hurts. Especially when children are harmed.

I was thinking it might have been that pain talking here:

nearly no one on this board cares about it.

Because I'd bet my left foot that is not true.

Reflexes may be dulled by fatigue, lack of intercultural contact lowers awareness sometimes, moral outrage goes mute when fear bears down (what a MESS the world is in--greed and cynicism that make it hard to remember the just intentions of the Allies in WWII), and some may not be finely tuned to sub rosa racism, but a resurgent good soul/moral compass is evident to me in almost every person on the board.

I hear your anger as love for humanity and pain and frustration though.

Hops

[pennyplant]

Because nearly no one on this board cares about it.
No more pearls before swine,

I don't think this particular comment was necessary or fair.

Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

Not necessary because it was name-calling.  Not fair because it presumes to know what people are feeling or thinking based on not having posted to the topic.

PP

[Hopalong]

Moon...I love Baldwin too.

Another amazing writer I bet you'd like is Michael Rodriguez...check out his book called BROWN.
It's extraordinary. It's all about racism and assumptions and goes really deep into how people think. (He's Hispanic and gay. But wait until you read how he feels. It's unique and really blew my mind...)

Hops

[reallyME]

I am not racist

[Hopalong]

I don't think so either, RM.

It's language. Our liberator and tripwire.

Makes me think of Bush's slip into profanity that got caught on mike. To many people in this culture it was either funny and/or embarrassing to hear him say s***, but generally a common enough phrase that it didn't make a big splash. To the Syrian ambassador, it was literally interpreted as saying that Arabs are garbage.

I am so glad we hang in and keep talking even when offending or taking offense is possible. Only things we can do with misunderstandings is look past them...as far as we can.

There are fine people and principles here.

Hops

[Sela]

RM, I empathise with your outrage at that scene in your restaurant.  You called them on it!  Horray!  That's more than so many do.  Who knows .....you may have even helped more than anyone knows?  Maybe you put a little scare into those people and they will reconsider their actions?  (I know.....hopeful thinking eh?  ).

Plucky, how ya doin?  Are you ok?  I'm guilty.  I noticed what you noticed...I read it the way you did and I kept quiet.  I have excuses which I'll keep to myself.  I do care, though, but I made a decision based on what else......fear ( ) and didn't post until now.

Because nearly no one on this board cares about it.
No more pearls before swine,

I felt shocked and surprised when I read these words of yours.  I still didn't post.  I was going by the past instead of having faith in the now and the future.  So now I've changed my mind.     Hopefully I won't make things worse (my fear, not my intention).

I'm trying to put myself in your shoes.  Did you feel all alone in voicing about RM's comment, until Sugarre stepped in behind you?  I would have, I think.  It's not nice feeling like the only one who sees that kind of stuff or who is willing to challenge it.  It's frustrating.

The subject is a very emotional one, for you, I bet?  For others too?  It's almost......potentially explosive  (one of the reasons I decided to let fear rule before- not wanting to get caught in the cross fire.... ...
chicken arse-me!  ).

Only one person was brave enough.....out of all the people on this board?  So anger started to rise in you Plucky?  You felt like you were grading people?  And you made the decision to stop posting.....first.... saying what you think and then....  throwing in an angry little dig?

  I'm in horror of my own thoughts sometimes and of my own shortcomings.

Me too Plucky.  Seriously.  You're not alone there.  I'm a sinner.

Penny wrote:

I don't think this particular comment was necessary or fair.

You're probably right Penny.  On the other hand, being a person who has spoken first and thought about it later, sometimes, and one who has also reacted badly and spoken in anger, I totally relate to what Plucky might have been feeling when she wrote that.  That doesn't make it right or fair but I'm glad she feels safe enough to do that here.   I think that's a good thing eh?

How are you (((((Plucky)))))?  Are you ok?

Sugarre wrote, in regard to remaining silent: 

If you don't care, that is your voice

Isn't that just a little bit .......(clears throat)......unfair?

I don't post to every thread I care about for more than one reason (one being I don't have that much time).
How can you decide that not posting or saying nothing means people don't care?
How do you know that?

I just found it peculiar that a board dedicated to exposing the self-absorbed people in our lives who have damaged us failed to pick up on a self-absorbed cultural predilection to using race and culture to explain behaviour;

Who didn't pick what up?    Aren't you presuming to know....to see inside every head here?

Naw.  Sugarre.  People probably care.  I bet they just get sick of all the "discussions" and I bet they have their reasons for not wanting to get into a hot one.

Ok.....going off to cool meeself infronta tha fan lads (and ladies too)    Please don't write me off as a fellow human being.  I'm just not a perfect one. (waddles out....brushing away loose feathers....)

Sela

[pennyplant]

Hi Sugarre,

To clarify, my own silence did not indicate that I do not care.  I did not respond to this important topic because the passion involved overwhelmed me.  I did not think anything I could say would be read without passion--I did  not think I would be heard.  This has happened to me here a couple of times regarding other topics.  Not being heard is a sore point with me as is name-calling.  Those are ways in which I was made voiceless in my childhood.  Obviously those are also areas which I need to work out.  But for now I choose to back off when I sense that feeling of being overwhelmed.  In the past I would have just "spewed" in response and, for now, not doing that is progress for me.

I do have stories to tell regarding my opinions on racism.  But I can't share those stories off the top of my head.  Especially when it's a place like this and I'm not sure how they would be received and understood.  Also, in some ways I feel presumptuous going on about it.  One of my friends is a Native American.  I feel more like a student of her life and culture.  I feel very conscious of stepping on toes and do not use the idea of my friendship with her to become some kind of spokesman or advocate for her "cause".  I know enough to realize that Native Americans are perfectly capable of telling their own story and being their own advocates.  I have the same opinion about African Americans.  It's not about me not caring.  It's about me stepping back and letting someone far more capable, someone from the culture, speak for themselves.

There are a lot of topics here that I do not comment on.  My silence on this particular thread was more telling of my history of being not listened to than of my opinion on the topic.  My talking now has to do with my history of being called names and not with my opinion of the topic.  I'm basically not ready to share my stories about racism.  I don't think that means I'm advocating racism.

Sugarre, thank you for being willing to listen.  I appreciate that quite a bit.

Pennyplant

[Hopalong]

PP,
That's a good model to keep in mind when tough topics come up.

I think it's important not to fill in others' silences with
"what they must be thinking" assumptions...we can't mind-read.

(I can barely read my own, half the time.)

Hope everyone has a good Thursday,
Hops