Disentangled and bewildered

[anony123]

Ladies, I am still waiting for some replies to my request to have YOU evaluate her reponses.
( I do not accept that her recoiling from a gesture of spontaneous affection -a kiss, is "setting legitimate boundaries" ..I would have thought that it is more likely that that lady has some kind of PROBLEM)
 Most women would see that as sweet and re-assuring , I am told by a lady friend.
So what gives?

Please, no more lectures about my 'recovery'. I have read all the old posts. They are old posts and they did not help much..

How about lightening up ladies ?

( Maybe I should switch to-  Ask Men.com   !! Huh?)
Jack.

[pennyplant]

A couple of ladies here said they would not like it.  I guess I would have to have seen it for myself before deciding.  Your lady said she didn't like it--it seems to me like that is the most important opinion in this particular situation.  All women do not think alike.  And even if you got a consensus here among this group of females, it still wouldn't change what is going on with this particular lady.  Also, two people who love each other would not be struggling so much over so many things on each date.  Just my opinion based on my one and only relationship--my husband and I.

Pennyplant

[reallyME]

sighing

[Brigid]

OK Jack--here comes a kinder, gentler Brigid with a response to your question.

When my b/f grabs me and kisses me in public, I love it.  We are naturally very affectionate with each other and pda's are common.  If I felt like recoiling, that would indicate a problem to me and about me in that relationship.  But I am also a very touchy, feely person by nature and always enjoy touching and being touched by those I care about.

Now I am going to be not so kind by asking, what does it matter what we think about that particular episode in what appeared to be a long list of bothersome, tiring, uncaring things that she did?  I understand that this break-up has been painful and you are dealing with things from your childhood that may or may not play into that.  But your pain and trying to heal from that is what needs to be focused on here and what we might be able to help you with.  Whether or not she acted appropriately in that particular situation is really rather moot at this point.

I think a lot of this boils down to the male/female thing.  Women want to talk about their problems and have others sympathize, but not necessarily offer definitive solutions.  Men want specific solutions to their problems without having to look at the feelings involved.  Unfortunately, we just don't have too many guys hanging out around here to give you that perspective.

I'm sorry that I am most likely not answering your questions the way that you would like.  I'm not sure what you mean by "lightening up."  I don't find your sadness amusing nor would I choose to make light of it.  I have been where you are times 10 and believe me, lightening up would not have been helpful.

Brigid

[anony123]

My EX g/f said the she did not like being kissed because," That behavior is 'male territory marking behavior' ". (She had gleaned that gem from one of her 3000 pop psyche books)
She and I were ,at the time,in an intimate relationship so there was no need to 'mark' anything or anyone.
Her remark is such a ridiculous interpretation of the event and hopelessly out of context.
Jack.

[anony123]

Brigid, I am a man and I like definitive answers, solutions, results, outcomes and so on.
I do not regard feelings and just talking about them to be of much value FOR ME.
I asked my questions to try to get a female opinion of another female's behavior. It seems that you all are reluctant to assess a "sister". That is all I am left to conclude. I have read numerous posts on this board and you all are ready to shoot 'em when the other person is a man.
Just my 2 cents. Maybe I am missing something but I doubt it.
Jack.

[Hopalong]

Jack,
Blunt (but no razor wire intended):

So she said an over-the-top feminist thing about your kiss.

The truth is that she recoiled from you, not the PDA. She withdrew her desire and affection.

That is more significant than why, or what thought she voiced at the time.

It's not so much whether you had the "label" of "being a couple" or not. It's whether you were attuned to the feeling of being a couple. And she was not, and was recoiling from you.

It's painful but it happens. Rejection hurts but at some point, people stop being monsters for not liking you. One of my hardest lessons was/is ... that not everyone I want to like me or love me, will. and that if they don't, and I feel hurt, the degree of my hurt does NOT necessarily equal a similar degree of "badness" or "sickness" on their part.

It might be just how I feel until that passes through.

An author to suggest to you: Pema Chodron. Anything by her.

A thing to ask yourself, a wait a while and listen for an answer that feels true:
How is it going to help you to make her bad? When what she is, is gone?

Hops

[anony123]

Hops, Curiously, this 'feminist' that i was dating craves male attention,affection and looks for an endless supply of assurances that HE loves her. The HE was me. She continues to email me and text me right up to today. The problem is this. She does not know how to be in an adult relationship and GIVE in RESPONSE to the requirements and needs of the relationship.In other words, she wanted all the rewards and benefits of a relationship BUt was not willing to make the contributions and pay the cost. It is called having it all her way. She rejected the concept that every relationship will cost you something, starting with some of your freedom to do as you please with whomever you please.  She wants only to give what she is comfortable giving at her discretion a the timing of HER choice. That may be 'feminist' but it is a disaster strategy in a relationship. She essentially wanted our relationship to be a storehouse of supplies to deliver on her request. And, as usual with all 'good' feminists ,we as men, are to blame for everything difficult including the movement of the techtonic plates.
I HAVE had enough of her endless hunger AND her absurd feminist propaganda. Supermaket magazines have a lot to answer for. She looked for scorpions under every rock. Feminists tend to do that, seeing offense where there is none, abuse where there is none and misread misunderstanding as sinister conflict.Men are still half of the population and that seems to be at their wounded core.
 Life with a woman is not this hard -surely.

Jack.

[Certain Hope]

Hi,

Life with anyone, male or female, who has a wounded core, is going to be difficult until healing begins.

Hope

[Certain Hope]

Jacmac.... you are... da bomb !!!        Amen X a kazillion to your words here.

Looking forward to reading your communication post in the morning when brain is (hopefully) in gear.

With love,
Hope

[Brigid]

Jack,

I asked my questions to try to get a female opinion of another female's behavior. It seems that you all are reluctant to assess a "sister". That is all I am left to conclude. I have read numerous posts on this board and you all are ready to shoot 'em when the other person is a man.

Wow, do you really think that?  First, I think you did get a number of comments on her behavior--regarding that particular instance and others you have mentioned.  The fact that they were not all the same answer or that everyone thought she was absolutely wrong in what she did, is based on our own perspectives and feelings about those examples and our own personal experiences with relationships.  I do believe that the question was "asked and answered."

This is not a dating advice column.  Most of us are not relationship experts (although we sometimes play one on TV).  We can only respond to what you tell us and obviously, we are only hearing your side of the story.  You are frustrated that we don't directly answer your questions the exact way you would like, but I think we are also frustrated that you choose to not read or respond to anything we've offered.

Your "You are all ready to shoot 'em" comment is way off base, IMO.  I would say it is usually quite the opposite, in fact.  I think most of us enjoy having men here and hearing their take on things.  I think there aren't as many men for the very fact that they don't like to discuss feelings and that is what mostly takes place here.

Jac,
I don't think we gave advice to Jack regarding his situation that was any different than if the situation was reversed and the g/f was posting.  At least where I am concerned, I certainly don't expect to have someone immediately go out and do what I suggested may be helpful, but perhaps consider some of the information offered and at the least acknowledge the response.  I think if you went back and read the original posts, you would see that.  I don't think that I have ever told anyone here to flat out dump someone, unless, of course, the relationship was abusive. 

If someone is posting to ask for advice, I guess I take that to mean that they actually want some.  It is entirely up to them if they choose to accept it or reject it.

Brigid

[Hops]

Well, I'm guilty of getting frustrated sometimes when I work really hard to analyse something and it bounces off. But I spotted it--it was about me, just as you described Jac. Jack's difficulty in letting go of a relationship that's not going to bring him happiness made me want to not look at it again, because it reminded me of a piece of myself I wanted to disown. It was helpful to me to see that quick dynamic (if not to poor Jack!).

Some more questions for you, Jack:

She rejected the concept that every relationship will cost you something, starting with some of your freedom to do as you please with whomever you please.

Did any of these conflicts happen to come up with you telling her what you thought the cost of the relationship should be for her, or you telling her whom you thought she should not see? Did she say to you, Jack, you do what you want with whom you want... or was she indifferent to what you did? Did you trying to hold her close, not just because you thought that's what a relationship should be, but because you felt her loyalty wandering, and you felt unloved?

  

She wants only to give what she is comfortable giving at her discretion a the timing of HER choice. That may be 'feminist' but it is a disaster strategy in a relationship.

It certainly sounds as though she wanted whatever she gave to the relationship, or to you, to be completely free-will and voluntary.

 

She essentially wanted our relationship to be a storehouse of supplies to deliver on her request

Are you partly angry with yourself, too, because even though you felt used and resentful, you kept delivering the supplies?

Hops

[Certain Hope]

Hi Brigid,

   When I read here this morning, I thought, "uh oh" ....  and then, "I am really going to have to suspend commenting on my own 'aha' moments until thoroughly thinking through how my response may come across to others and expressing my own perspective more completely."

    Jac's comments hit square on with my own experiences with giving advice in the past. Because I did find it so frustrating (and maddening) I'd nearly given up altogether on advising anyone, rather than face the distinct possibility that there would likely be no return on (what was to me) my major investment of emotional energy. Jac's words helped me to see in vivid color the bigger picture... that the reason I'd feel emotionally drained if someone didn't follow my counsel was because of all the negative stuff I'd virtually had to relive in order to give that counsel. Although I'd recognized my own need to not continue this pattern, I'd gotten stuck in a position of thinking, "what's the use... he/she is going to do whatever he/she wants anyway".  By the way, I think a huge part of this for me relates to wanting to see all that I've experienced NOT turn out to be a waste and if I can communicate effectively to others who are in similar situations, some of that old mess has been redeemed.

Anyhow, Brigid, I absolutely agree with what you've expressed in your posts on this thread, including the last one, and I never intended to imply that everyone who's given advice here has become angry when that advice was not taken.  Seems I'm often on a sort of parallel path with these posts... receiving insights that pertain to my own situation, but failing to acknowledge that not everyone has been where I am (or needs to go where I do).  I'll work on expressing all of that better in future. Keep up the good work   

Hope

[anony123]

To Brigit - the question has NOt been answered to my satisfaction at all. Why can I NOT get some straight answers here?
I asked for some comments about two incidences. I asked for what I needed to know. I received mostly YOUR personal opinions of what YOU thought I should know.
Do you get what the problem is here, ladies ? You all decided to preach and advise and "improve" me a few weeks ago when I first posted . Why not just answer the question in the way that I requested ?

To JacMac- you have been reading my mind.

To Hops, I just raised the issue of how a committed relationship will surely cost both parties something. That may be some freedom, it maybe some time away from other friends , it may be that I need to cut back on my fishing.!
She saw this relationship as a supplier of little more than seratonin. She wanted it to be like one long date, but she put little in of any substance. When I asked her to contribute and put herself out, she rambled on about how demanding I was ,blah ,blah !

[Brigid]

Hope,
Thanks for your comments.  I know that I do occasionally get frustrated with people who are asking for help, then I go out on that limb and offer some insights or what has worked for me--which as you so aptly stated--puts me back into that painful place, then they appear to ignore or dismiss the information.  I remember saying to my therapist at one point when I was swirling around the drain and not able to move forward, "how do you not want to jump out of that chair and come over and shake me until my teeth rattle when you see me continuing to obsess about the same things?"  I'm sure therapists must face that day in and day out, but I know it would make me crazy.

I had to go back to what I wrote on Storm's thread on "Double Binds."  I can only control me--I can only control me--I can only control me.  Gotta work on that some more. 

Hugs,

Brigid