Disentangled and bewildered

[penelope]

jack,

What kind of response are you looking for?  What could we say to you about your ex-g/f's behavior that would be supportive?

I did answer honestly, based on my own experience of acting like her myself (which I admitted was out of line - it led to my divorce, in fact), what she might be thinking and feeling.

So I gave an explanation other than she is just Bad or Wrong or a Terrible Woman.  She sounds like a hurt person.  If N, she's probably not repairable.  Why do you have a need to keep beating the dead horse?  This woman is not capable of having a relationship with you because she is Damaged, I agree, and in my opinion, it may not make her evil.  She may just be confused.  But yes, I agree, she's incapable of having a relationship with you.  I think I've said that now 10 times?  How many more examples and how many more times do you think you're going to need to hear this from us?  I mean, I'm willing to keep telling you, but don't play the head games about what you want and need here.  Cause it's real clear to us on the outside.

Why do you have a need to make her the bad one?  Does she represent your mother?  That's the role she's playing, I believe.  Your mother hurt you, and now this woman is a receptacle for that hurt and shame.  But it would be much more effective to get to the point of talking about your mother, cause then the next woman that comes along, you may have a chance with.  That is honestly what I think, cause I don't tell untruths here.

pb

[Brigid]

Jack,

To Brigit - the question has NOt been answered to my satisfaction at all. Why can I NOT get some straight answers here?
I asked for some comments about two incidences. I asked for what I needed to know. I received mostly YOUR personal opinions of what YOU thought I should know.

OK, what we have here is a failure to communicate.  I am not in a position to offer anything more than my personal opinion.  I specifically told you how I would react if my b/f kissed me in public.  What more can I do?  I cannot read the mind of a woman I do not know or a situation to which I was not a witness.  I guess I would ask what a "straight answer" would sound like to you?

I have offered some information that I paid a lot of money for in my two years of weekly therapy.  I am now in a relationship that is wonderful with a man who makes me blissfully happy, so I guess I learned something from all those hours.  I think I have said all that I can.

Brigid

[penelope]

hi brigid,

I'm getting the feeling that jack is persecuting all women on this board, not just the ex-G/f now.  Very interesting stuff.

He has such a great need to persecute women, in fact, that he posts a vague question, then when he doesn't get the answer he wants (ie, this woman is Bad), he pouts, gets angry, then asks for only the men to reply.  Like they're more sensible, or something.

It's a wonder with this kind of behavior, Jack, that you had a g/f at all.  Seriously.  This is disrespectful of all women here.

pb

[Hops]

I text back, " You going to look stunning and gorgeous."
She replied," I am unable to come due to the implied demands in your last text."

I think you're asking for specifics, right? Because I once was a young woman beginning to become aware of the pain of male domination culture-wide, the only response I can give you comes from the truth of that, and isn't about judging her, which is what I think you want. But I'll offer a negative about her too. We all deserve them. Bear in mind that as a woman, I can more easily identify with her in the situation. So, I accept an invite and get back:

" You going to look stunning and gorgeous."

Inside, I would bristle and recoil. A level deeper, I would be depressed. (Just 2 years ago, my 53 y/o bf asked me to go to an event with him. After hearing him go on and on about what I should wear, I began feeling valued more as arm candy, an accessory to his preening. Like a tie or cufflinks, just bigger.) Needless to say...I didn't feel valued for my uniqueness, my individuality, my company. Just my boobs and being handy when he wanted a woman along. It turned out to be true. We split. He was my last N.

Here's the negative: She does sound prissy, humorless and defensive when she says it to you. (Many just-awakening feminists do...the shock of fully facing your position in the world, despite all the strides, does tend to do that). She sounds the same when she reacts to you telling her "This can't happen again." I would, however, have the same thought process she did. I would feel, who are you to dictate to me. And what she offered as alternative ways to say how you felt would have been fine with me, too.

I am verrrrrry sensitive to some men's assumptions of entitlement and gestures of control. I often have felt that some men do it so automatically, having been raised into the role, that they really are baffled by why some women, like me, are so threatened by "litlte remarks" and "reasonable requests." And oddly, I had another middle-aged bf who insisted on PDAs although he was happy to criticize me like crazy the rest of the time. Now that your gf mentions it, I did feel a lot like a fireplug. It felt like being "claimed", not like affection or being loved.

On the other hand, I daydream a lot about a sweet loving companion like Brigid's fella, w/whom PDAs would be really PEAs...expressions, rather than displays. I'd leave the displays to the peacocks.

Controlling works both ways, either gender. I have been guilty in the past of having a list of "relationship expectations" in my head that would've driven Ward Cleaver out the door screaming. Somebody would give me a few crumbs of affection and I'd be mentally picking out the furniture, just the way little girls in school used to write Mrs. So and So in their best script...  I truly think romantic cliches and fantasies and assumptions prevent us from knowing each other deeply, and developing amazing relationships. That's what I want now. You might be intrigued, Jack, by a book called Passionate Marriage. Would love to know what you think of it. (It's about sex. And psychology. And intimacy and commitment. It's quite racy.)

None of this is to say, at all, that you don't have your legitimate grievances and gripes about her behavior. I am certain you do. She may be immature, or have her own feelings of entitlement. You appear to have felt used by her, and perhaps she has done that. That's not fair to you, and many women want things both ways, which I find exasperating. (Buy me diamonds like I'm your pet poodle but don't put me on a leash.) I have sympathy for both of you, and can imaginatively best understand her feelings.

I think that neither of you is ready for a fully committed relationship. I am guessing you're in your early to mid-20s...and I hope you will take a long time before marrying anyone. Her too.

I hope this is helpful. It's as specific as I can be.

Hops 
(PS--thinking of the title of your thread, I am trying to shed light on the bewilderment part. As an older female who can identify with your young one. I can't just tell you what I think you want to hear: she's bad, you're good! Everybody's a mix. Blame gets you nowhere closer to happiness, even if you're right about some things, which I'm sure you are.. I'd watch your own thinking, observe it: and think about your mother. A lot. Make all the connections you can.

[adrift]

My EX g/f said the she did not like being kissed because," That behavior is 'male territory marking behavior' ". (She had gleaned that gem from one of her 3000 pop psyche books)
She and I were ,at the time,in an intimate relationship so there was no need to 'mark' anything or anyone.
Her remark is such a ridiculous interpretation of the event and hopelessly out of context.
Jack.

I agree, it is a ridculous response if you ask me, "male territory marking?????"       If I'm into a guy, then I wouldn't mind the pda (public display of affection), but then again when I'm hormonal my reactions are quite bizarre sometimes so...............  you can't really pin me down.  I would say your ex g/f has issues and that you are struggling mightily to let go of her and you deserve praise for your efforts.  I know it is difficult. 

I came to this board for many reasons, one of which was due to an emotional affair I recently had with a man (not the man I've been married to for the last 20 years, obviously).  I haven't mentioned this until now, but the whole thing lasted about 2 years.  Nothing physical ever happened, but he gave me lots of signals that he was interested and even set up for us to be alone once (actually more but I didn't follow through) and then backed out when I went to kiss him (can you say "felt like a fool"?) .  I would give him signals and he would one day enjoy them and the next day, or week, would recoil.  I was one confused chic, let me tell you.  Oh, I should add that he too is married. 

I was terribly, terribly hurt.  He played me like a violin, but then I played him somewhat too.  He told me once he loved me, but I never told him although I thought I loved him more than anything in the world.  In the end, he totally ran roughshod over my heart (but I'm not sure that he really realized it because I was so busy trying to play it cool), lied to me about things and it turned out he wasn't what I thought he was----which is kinda where you are.  Your ex g/f isn't what you thought she was, but yet you still have feelings and are hurt and haven't made peace with it all yet.    From one who has kinda, sorta been where you've been, I know that even when they've totally crushed you, it's still hard to let go because you still love what "was" , even though "was" might not have ever really existed.   This guy who treated me so, is he bad? is he horrible? is he a monster? ----not really, he has lots of good qualities.  Do I hate him? I did for awhile, but hate has a thread of love in it you know.  You only hate that which has meaning to you.  The more I've let go of my feelings for him, the less I've hated him and the less I've loved him and the less I've tried to figure out what in the hell went on.  I kinda get the feeling you're still somewhere in that phase of trying to figure out "what the hell happened".  Personally, I never completely figured it all out.  He gave me so many mixed signals, and in retrospect the only thing I'm pretty sure of is that we both found each other physically attractive but it just wasn't meant to be.  We did a very long mating dance, but never mated, never committed and finally went our separate ways. 

I hope for you, anony, that you can finally get to the end of your journey and just let go of wondering "what the hell happened" and just let go......... 

I'd also like to add, that my DH (dear husband) now knows all about the emotional affair and he has been understanding (well, after he got over being really mad) and the whole situation has actually improved our marriage.  DH and I ended up becoming more honest with each other and more intimate.
 
Adrift

[penelope]

hi jac,

It doesn't make me mad that you've pointed out my communication style is now assuming and not probably the best.  I do have a migraine today though, so I'm short on patience (not the same as anger).

I'm communicating this way with him for a reason, he's glossed over most of what you said that was really important, if you noticed.  If you examine Jack's history of posting here, he hasn't seemed to listen to anything really, and he has offended women before - some here admitted they were offeneded.  And I am too now (wasn't before but he's triggering some stuff for me now, I suppose).

I'd appreciate it jac, if you didn't dimish my feelings by overanalyzing my post in the way you did above.  I've stated they are my feelings, so technically, you can't disagree with them. 

There are also questions being asked where the motivation is not to get a direct answer to the question ( I am speaking of questions being asked of Jack) but to accuse and assign blame.

I don't know where you get this, cause it's certainly not what I was thinking/feeling: to assign blame.   Also, you don't know my feeling unless  ya ask, ya know. 

on edit:  I'm feeling like I'd like an apology (from jack), guess it wasn't clear so I'll ask.  Otherwise, this communication with jack isn't going very well and I doubt it'd improve, I do agree with that.

pb

[penelope]

hops, I just read your post (migraine has subsided - it was due to wearing glasses of the wrong prescription, btw, so no jokes in poor taste about females having headaches, please).

Wonderful!!  Lovely, so much so in fact, it sums up exactly how I've felt throughout most of my "awakening."  As a feminist and an all-round male loving gal, myself, I think we'd hit it off marvelously.  I believe that there's a difference between "hating men" see, and hating stereotypes.  I hate stereotypes of either gender, male or female.  I don't use them and I get along great with people I work with, male and female, because of it.

BTW, if you wanted to make this discussion about men and women jack, I'd love to do that and debunk some stereotypes as I work with mostly men and/or very assertive women.  The women are as often the "doers" as the men.  And if you tried to write something like you have above in a email to women I work with?  You'd be in HR so fast and your butt would be looking for a new job.  It's just not acceptable to dismiss "women's views" in the workplace.  It's a Fact, not my opinion.  Of course, we're talking about relationships here, which maybe I should just stay out of to begin with.

I happen to have a great relationship with someone (most times, when my past isn't screwing it up, or simply the laws of entropy) and we don't spend it out dancing and hanging out at coffee shops, or worrying of his Public Displays of Affection (PDA to me means Personal Device, like an electronic calendar)- we talk (a lot), dream, work on our cars and ride motorcycles, swim, play with the dog, and tinker around on projects in our "home lab."  OK, what do you expect of a chemical and mechanical engineer?  So all of your questions about what she said and then how you responded are a Little Silly to me jack.  This is all superficial B.S. to me and is not the stuff of real relationships.  In My Opinion (that was for jacmac).

pb

[penelope]

I have to add something else, cause I think this is important hops.  You felt like a Pair of Boobs.  Gee, aint that dandy?

In all my travels and years of dating (I'm only 34 but I've dated A Lot), one thing I learned is that if I wanted a guy to truly respect me for more than being a pair of legs (in my case legs, since boobs aren't my best feature), I needed to find that guy at work and develop the friendship-relationship there.  why?

Because at work, people saw me in all my different modes; they see me at my worst and best, they didn't see me "playing the role of sweet cute innocent little lady" like some guys wanted...  No, they saw me being assertive and smart, and winning over a room full of customers, and they saw me not afraid to back down on what I thought was important..In other words, they see me, being me - the real me.  And if they could quiver at the thought or sight of me entering a room, I thought, that's the person that's really going to accept me just as I am.  And that is a recipe for love.  You're the real you too, Jack, but when you first start dating someone, you put up a front (it's subtle and pychological and happens for strange reasons I think).  If you tore down that wall, imagine what you two might find?

I truly think romantic cliches and fantasies and assumptions prevent us from knowing each other deeply, and developing amazing relationships.

  This is the wall that hops mentioned.

(BTW, I think Jack said he's in his late? 40s)

pb

[Hops]

BTW, I think Jack said he's in his late? 40s

Oops. Sorry, Jack. You sound young to me (no offense intended). Couldn't remember the title of your old thread so I couldn't go back...

PB, I'm glad you understand one can have that painful awakening and still love men too. I do, a lot.
(I was lucky to have a wonderful father, who offset the bully-brother stuff. I married two bullies but now that I'm getting...finally....some more clarity about what matters, I know I'm no longer trying to "win" my brother's affection (or mother's).) That is such a relief.

If I'm fortunate enough to marry again, it'll be Brigid's beau's brother, with a bit of Mr. Moon and Mr. H&H thrown in.

 

Jack, I do hope you'll share your specific reactions to specific pieces of our answers. To me, anyway, it's very motivating.

wishing you awakenings and the pain fast receding (you're not broken--just learning like the rest of us),

Hops

Hops

[penelope]

jac,
that's because he changed the offending words and remarks, after some of the women went into an uproar.  Pattern?  maybe, IN MY OPINION.

Could you include that in your post above, maybe in RED. In Jac's opinion: or does it only suit you to write it that way when you're directing others?  (it was a question, and didn't mean to be offending and I'm sorry therefore if you take it as such)

There's taking people's feelings into consideration, and there's having little to no disregard for other's feelings.  I believe I know the difference jac, it's not up to you to tell me and instruct me on ways to communicate either (even if I don't, or you think I don't).  That is the gol' darn honest truth and before you said you appreciated that, and if it couldn't be shared between friends, then what kind of friends would they be?

pb

[Hopalong]

Thanks for the reminder, Jac.
I needed to go back and re-read Jack's posts from May to refresh my awareness.

Jack, you had so many insights already, sprinkled through your posts in May (and I have to say at one point you said how very helpful our responses here had been...):

So here are some new somewhat rambling thoughts after re-reading your first round:

she is like your unavailable, psycho-ish N father who toyed with you but never loved you

Your mother was compliant, and focused on transactions (a key? like, I give up this, you give up that, these things prove our coupledom. Your mother: I scrimp for the family here, I save there, these things prove my motherdom)

I am just feeling sad for you now. I truly think it's not completely about the g/f but she is a catalyst for a lot of awareness that is straining to rise up in you, and help you heal from old hurts. She's toying with you too, although I could identify with some of her resistance on a feminist level. But she does not sound like a good egg to me.

And you sound hoooked, angry, resentful, hurt, and obsessed.
All of which I can relate to.

Have you ever considered getting into therapy for a long stretch?
I think it would be wonderful for you to also have a wise 3-D ally while you continue trying to let go...
there is much, much, much to unravel that will free you, Jack.

You really can be freed of living in league with ghosts.

Hops

[anony123]

OK Ladies,
Firstly I see that same hypersensitivity in Penelope's posts that I have encountered in some other self-promoting feminists. They seem to find offense where none exists (please do not give me that stuff about personal perceptions) . Pene, I have nothing to apologise for so there will be none offered.

I originally asked for comments. I have received some valuable opinions(albeit guarded )
My ex g/f has demonstrated extreme hypervigilance and is showing signs of emotional exhaustion.
In part, I am really sympathetic to her condition which has deteriorated in the past 3 months. 
She has seen a therapist(another feminist) and her condition has worsened (at least she showed signs of having gone downhill when I last saw her). Her therapist stirred up her hostility and I became the target for a lot of her old anger .

The incident refering to the dance invitation and her response was one of the last straws for me.
She walked out of a social occasion (which embarrassed and hurt me) because I was not giving her exactly the 'right' amount of attention. My remark the next day, "This can't happen again." was fair and legitimate. I cannot understand how any of you thought that this statement was harsh and demanding. The real issue was her walking out !! You all ignored that !

The relationship was combative and competitive from the third month. She did not understand how to balance her 'feminist' leanings with the requirements of an intimate relationship.She also saw me as her adoring worshipper and when I started to want respect and consideration as a man, she rebelled aand became diffiocult . To her, it was all about her --

(BTW, if it makes any difference, the text that I sent her said , " ARE you going to look stunning and gorgeous?' -   My post above did misquote my text. IT IS BLOODY OBVIOUS that I was being, complimentary, playful,flirty and cute!
 I am old enough to remember the days when women would instinctively understand that meaning)


Jack.

[penelope]

I knew you wouldn't go away jack, cause see you have too much fight in ya.  That's good.

Well, I actually don't require an apology, but I will apologize to you.  I'm sorry if anything I've said hurt or offended you.  I did want one, so I asked, that's just good communication, asking for what you want.  Oh well though, I'll live if I don't get one.

Why is it that feminists curl your toes so?  My b/f seems to like em.   

Seriously, I know a lot of guys your age (hey I'm single - as in unmarried- too) and we've had this stale converstation so many times, it's like an old tape in my head (I happen to be pretty attractive too, so most single guys my age hit on me - although not all, but most - even if they don't want a feminist woman, why is that I wonder?).  So what's the deal?  If you don't like 'dem feminist types, what are you looking for?  Cause a strong, caring woman who knows herself - is healthy.  One that would bow to you and let you walk all over her - not healthy.  So do you want a thinking/caring woman or do you want a toy?  Ask yourself that question jack.  And don't reply for my sake.\

What exactly is it you're trying to find in your text messages and dances?  What is it that you want from all this great sex?  To inhabit this poor woman and see into her very soul?  Or do you want a soulmate?  A friend to heal you and joke around with you when you're feeling blue - somebody to rub your back when your dog passes away?  A partner in crime - just you and her against the world, armed with nothing but good looks, carefree attitutdes and your own arsenal of inside jokes?   I'm asking you now to be practical.  Can you see a year in the future?  What about 4 years?  Do you think life will be a big party forever?  Don't you think that might get lonely, flitting around from coffee shop to coffee shop, having only superficial engagements and trying to find this knockout dream of yours?  For what it's worth, my b/f is the most stunningly attractive guy I've ever met (no kidding, he's a hunk) and I've never danced with him.  We've known each other for two years.  It's not important to me, see.  Neither are the public displays of affection.  I know that each day he picks me up to take me home, he's mine.  I know that to the core of my being see, so I don't need all the other garbage.

God, I hated being in my 20's for all the reasons you've just reminded me of.  bleh!  If you were talking about my hypersensitivity for immaturity, you got me pegged!

IT IS BLOODY OBVIOUS that I was being, complimentary, playful,flirty and cute

Was it?  How come you're dating a woman so dense then?  Oh and jack - lighten up.   

pb

p.s. you can talk To me rather than About me you know?  Or do I truly scare the living daylights out of you such that it's hard for you to do that?

[Hopalong]

Hi Jack,
I'm still analysing...it's all I reallly can try to contribute.

Thought of another thing, since you added more info--about her being so emotionally exhausted that she went into therapy. Coincidentally, I felt the same way near the end of my relationship with my PDA/N bf...drained and confused. I THOUGHT his overwhelming interest was love...but he did have so many rules...

I am thinking (despite all her many faults that you describe in such detail)...that she may be at in therapy to deal with her own ambivalence toward you (in addition to old anger from her childhood). I do think she's angry at you, but she sounds like a kind of person who can't hold a boundary very well, which makes sense. She can't stop coming after your attention, but at the same time, when she gets close to you again, your expectations and needs become apparent, and they overwhelm her. (It truly is possible you're "high maintenance"...I think it's a nasty epithet, but I have been that myself and know it does hint at someone being kind of smothering). Yes, I know, she asks for attention. But she can't handle yours, for some reason.

Do you think it's possible that out of your own old anxieties, you go into a somewhat controlling mindset about her? I know that's what I've done with my tremendous anxiety in the past. What I just thought was that you may have a pattern:

--were you trying to say something when you were attentive to another woman at the dance?
--were you trying to say something when you told her, this can't happen again...
--were you trying to say something when you told her, you're have to give up some freedom...

It does seem to me, honestly, in addition to all her manifest flaws and insecurities and unhealthy behaviors...that you don't seem interested in asking, "What am I contributing to the problem?"

That, for me, is the missing piece.

If you'd like me to offer you a guess as to what your contribution is, I believe that out of fear of loss, you are trying to control her. And in addition to her own problems and relationship fears...there is a piece of her that's fighting that very hard.

It only has a little bit to do with an "ism", Jack. There is a reason I recommend Pema Chodron books.

It sounds miserable for both of you. Hope you'll be able to end it, and stop blaming (her, women here, feminism) and being so defensive...you won't be able to hear anything that might help you grow as long as you make people who are responding to you the enemy.

Make sense? I hope you are willing to look for your own contributions to the unhealthy dynamic. It does take 2.

I think it's not possible so far for you to "sit with" the thought that you may be spilling anger and resentment and a desire to control (a form of punishing) her. (Mom, Dad, women in general?)

If you can sit with that thought, open your mind to it, I think you'll start growing.
I hope you can because you're punishing yourself too.

Hops

[anony123]

Here we go again ladies,
You both are not listening. I do not want advice about who and what I am or how I may be contributing to the problem(or did) .
If you must know, here are my thoughts. MY contribution to the problem was letting her get away with so much appalling behavior early in the piece,. I should have pressed "delete' on her 6 months ago.
 Feminism, per se, does not offend me. I applaud equal salaries and equal opportunities.

 HOwever, I do fell irritated by all the dogma - "men are bad, controlling, domineering, possessive, superficial, sex crazy ," ad nauseum .
Blah !
The brittle and reactive style of some of your more 'active' feminist sisters is just annoying. They do themselves no favors by being so aggressive. They get on my nerves just as much as the ego-centric struttin' males in my office.

I looks like I am not making any headway on this forum.
My relationship with my mother is irrelevant. It was superficial aand unsatisfying but I cannot do much about that now.
Maybe I will take a break now.
Jack.