Emotional Literacy

[Certain Hope]

Hi Portia,

   Based on my newly aquired (still infantile) knowledge of communication which does not enable dysfunctional relationships, I think I'm s'posed to say:  "I'm sorry you're feeling that way, Portia."   

So...  I'm sorry you're feeling that way, Portia.

With love,

Hope

[jordanspeeps]

Just wanted to add:

I used to be chronically late, by 10 or 15 minutes. I still sometimes fight to get myself out the door.

What woke me up was reading a few years ago, I forget where:

When you are chronically late to meet a friend, you are saying to them:
Your time is not as important as mine. You are not as important as I am.

That wiped the charming sheepdoggy look off my face 

Ditto for me Hops, completely changed the way I looked at being "fashionably late."

[Sela]

Hi all:

Hiya P:

Sela is defending me (?? Sela you’d need to confirm, deny, talk about this with us

I read this as an invitation.  Thankyou Portia. 

Yes.  I was defending you.  It also felt like defending generally, every person's right to be dealt with directly and respectfully (as iffffff I can do that???  ).

I feel uncomfortable about the current relationship between you and Sela. I feel somehow involved and responsible.

You are responsible!!  If you had never been born, there would have been no one to defend!!  (sick joke.  not funny.  another direct effect of abuse....it seems.....taking on more responsibility than belongs to us eh?  Tell me about it!).  ((((((((((((((P)))))))))))))

Not your fault P.  It was my choice to jump in and start defending, without even expressing my respect for Hope's ideas, feelings, wishes.  It is me who is responsible here.

Thankyou for feeling stuff for others P anyway.  That's very considerate, I think.  Also thankyou for referring to my incomplete apology over on the "Anything" thread.  I appreciate your effort very much.  It was a very friendly thing to do!

 
Thanks to you, Hope, for this thread.  Yep.

IV. Respect the ideas, feelings and wishes of others as much as you do your own. Respecting ideas does not mean that you have to submit to them.

This is where I mucked up most I think.  Trying to learn.  I should have expressed this.  Maybe that would have helped eh?

I love this...... The 3R's (regret, responsibility, repair)!   Wonderful!  I'll do my best to remember them.

Having empathy for the person you hurt or angered is the most important part of your apology.

(Beverly's opinion)  I'm not sure it's the most important part.   Maybe?  I didn't express this, though I felt it.  Learning.  Learning.  Shoulda.  Shoulda. 

not making excuses for your actions

If I try to explain why I behaved the way I did, does that help?  It helps me to understand why people behave the way they do.  I guess I assume this is also helpful to others.  Excuse seems like another judgement...depends, I guess, on how the other person interprets, I think.  So much depends on our perceptions.  If we believe the person is making excuses, it won't help. 

Unless all three of these elements are present, the other person will sense that something is missing in your apology and he or she will feel shortchanged somehow

This is probably what happens, some of the time, although, as P pointed out, not always.  No absolutes, I think too.
What if you're not exactly sure which of your words hurt (or in other cases, what you did wrong) but you feel generally bad for hurting/upsetting/angering the person anyway?
Probably it would be good to ask first? 
What if the person refuses to communicate with you?
Maybe it would be good to apologise anyway?  Maybe not?  Not sure there.  I think it might be good.

I don't think I offered restitution.  I plan to do my best to express number 4 above from now on.  I think that might help me avoid hurting others.  On the other hand, I'm human.  I know I react and
can't react perfectly all the time.  I think honesty is very important.  Restitution, imo, can be a way to soothe....or make up for.   I guess it depends too.  I'll try.  I'll try to do better.  That's honest and not some soothing statement.  It's just honest.  I want to speak without hurting.  My intent is pure.  Doesn't sound like much restitution?  I'll do my best.  I will!  Hope that makes sense.

The two most important underlying aspects of an apology are your intention and your attitude.

Possibly the most difficult for the other person to define.  How does one decide the sincerity of another?  How can one be sure?  How does one proove sincerity? Very tricky, I think.  Attitude can be a state of mind or feeling.  How can that be clearly shown?  Especially here....with only written text.  On the other hand, after awhile, attitude becomes clearer, when lot's of words have been written and lot's of feelings expressed.  Maybe it's fair to say that it requires time to define attitude?  I'm not sure?

While there may be valid reasons for your behavior, there is no excuse.

  Very wise.  Very true, I think.  Read this on this board a long time ago and have embraced this idea ever since.  I don't always remember it. More 

most people respond positively to honesty.

Key word being most people.  Some have too hard of a time trusting maybe? and that causes a different response....and maybe even more harm?  How does one proove honesty?  Over time, behaviour usually speaks volumes, attitude becomes clearer? but honesty.....in regard to words?  Honesty about what one is feeling?  Honesty about empathy?   More than tricky I think!   Honesty is not easy to tell, sometimes, I think.

Humble comes to mind too.  An apology needs to be humble, maybe?  Reminds me of the ultimate N song:

Oh Lord, it's hard to be hummmble
When you're perrrfect in evvvvvverrrrrry way.
I can't help but look in the mirror.
I get bettttttter lookin' each day.

To knowwww me is to lovvvvvve me.
I must be a helllllll of a man!
Oh Lord, it's hard to be hummmmmmmble.
When you're perrrrrrrrfect in evvvvvvvery way.

I bet the person who wrote that song knew a few N's!    (or was one??  who knows?)

So much depends on how we finish people's sentences for them in our heads.  Assumptions.

Re the Second article,

"Sorry-Excuse"
Example: "I'm sorry I didn't call-I've been really busy."
Translation: Please be understanding about the fact that other things were more important than you."

I think this is one way to perceive the apology.  Another might be that the person simply has not had the time to call.  Other obligations had to be met.  They thought about you and wanted to call but were not able.
They feel sorry for not having called and not being able and want you to know they wanted to and how sorry they are.

"Sorry-Denial of Intent"
Example: "I'm sorry you took it that way. It wasn't what I meant."
Translation: I think it's too bad that you had difficulty understanding me correctly.

One way of looking at it.  A variant could be that the person is actually sorry that they didn't communicate well enough and they feel bad that there is now a misunderstanding.   It could be their way of trying
to communicate their intent.   I'm not sure that trying to communicate intent is blaming.  It could also be seen as trying to express empathy for the way they see the other person has perceived what was said?

Decline to accept an apology that is not given sincerely.

Dangerous advice, I think.  Unless one can read people's hearts and minds, I don't know how this could be determined absolutely.
A better approach might be to simply ask:  "Do you believe I simply misunderstood you?"   And......maybe add: "That doesn't feel like a full apology to me".  Explain what's missing??

Thankyou Portia for trying to drill that one into my head.  Ask.  Ask.  I wish I could always remember to ask.
I so much appreciate everything you have helped me with and taught me too.  More drilling is necessary, no doubt.  Thankyou for your patience and persistance.

Hope, my reason for apologising is because I hurt you, I think, and I feel bad for having done that.   My post on the "Anything" thread is more than an apology though.  It's an attempt to keep the lines of communication open and an attempt to show respect for your wishes and feelings.

Sela

[Certain Hope]

Hi again, Portia,

  I'm feeling the need to repeat a couple of statements which you and I made on the "Double Standards" thread.

I said:  "I understand your position re: Sela's involvement in this conflict and thank you for being so clear about that. You've inspired me to attempt to be equally clear. I will not be revisiting my exchanges with Sela. I will not contribute to any further discussion on that topic at all. This is a boundary I must draw for myself, because I don't know how to speak any more clearly than I already have, and yet my words were twisted, imo. "

You said: " I respect your boundary with Sela. I was simply being honest about my thoughts and feelings and experiences. It's okay with me for you to do as you choose and we can agree to disagree in our interpretations of Sela's intentions. No worries."

Portia, if you have since changed your mind about whether or not to respect my boundary, that is entirely up to you, of course. If you have recognized that somehow respecting my boundary runs counter to what you think you need to do in order to nurture another relationship which you value, then I can certainly appreciate your perceived dilemma. You've expressed your discomfort with the way things have been left (about which I think Jac said a mouthful in her response). For my part, I can express my sympathy for any discomfort you may be feeling re: where things are now.
I can say that I'm sorry you feel that way, but I can't taking responsibility for easing your feelings. In fact, I don't think your feelings (at this point) are within either my arena of responsibility or my ability to ease. And so my original boundary stands. It stands because, to this day, I see a clear and obvious need for it.

From my perspective, you crossed my boundary, Portia, when you said in your most recent response on this thread:

   "When I do have a look, the thread has moved on, Sela is defending me (?? Sela you’d need to confirm, deny, talk about this with us…..whoops now I’m doing a ‘talk about’ thing myself)…."

Portia, I'm not upset with you or angry that you did this, because I think you're doing the best you can with what you know. I do need to be clear though.... I will not be a part of the "us" in that sentence. I think that with your aversion to being lumped into a group mentality, you'll understand that; at least I hope you will.

So now I'm thinking... where does all of this leave me? Am I required now to recycle this entire event, returning to square one and restating my reasons for setting that boundary in the first place or even revoke that boundary completely? I don't think so. Is the only way to appear to be a reasonable, non-"meanie" type of person to nod and smile and pretend like everything is fine now? I hope not. I've seen alot of abuse perpetrated by those who count on the silence of those who are deeply invested in keeping up appearances.

I don't care a fig for appearances. 

As I said, my boundary stands.

Maybe I left the door open to this sort of regurgitation when I said that I wasn't sure my previous apology to you was complete. What I meant was...  since reading these in-depth analyses of what an apology entails, I wasn't sure whether I'd covered all of the required elements. I'd never seen this info before, until you selected the rules re: apologies out of the "10 Commandments" I posted here and I then researched it more thoroughly. Since doing that, I've come to complete agreement with:
 # IX. Do not accept false apologies. They are worth less than no apologies at all.

In fact, I think I'd add a # IX - b. ~  Beware of false acceptances of apologies, which later come along with added contingencies.

Portia, imo ... whether inadvertently or not, you extended an invitation which crossed a boundary, which ended this discussion. This discussion, not any possible future discussions, because just as my boundary still stands, so does my apology, and I still thank you for accepting it, such as that original acceptance was... but I am done discussing this. I wish you the very best in hopes that all of these many words won't be wasted, but bring to light some of issues we all need to work through. And hope to see ya for a meeting of the minds on the next thread

Still with love,

Hope

[portia guest]

Hi CH

I was about to go but noticed your post.  I said:

"When I do have a look, the thread has moved on, Sela is defending me (?? Sela you’d need to confirm, deny, talk about this with us…..whoops now I’m doing a ‘talk about’ thing myself)…."

You’re right I said ‘us’ and that wasn’t my right. I should have said something like  “you’d need to confirm, deny, talk about this with me”. I was wrong to say ‘us’. I’m sorry I invited Sela back like that, implyng she might talk to ‘us’. I should have limited any communication with Sela to myself. My mistake, I accept responsibility for it, I regret that error (it feels such a stupid error).

Sela sorry, I made a mistake there. I should have said you can confirm or deny to me, not to CH.

CH

Since doing that, I've come to complete agreement with:
 # IX. Do not accept false apologies. They are worth less than no apologies at all.

In fact, I think I'd add a # IX - b. ~  Beware of false acceptances of apologies, which later come along with added contingencies.

I don’t think I understand this CH. Is this about me and my apologies? Do you think I falsely accepted your apology to me, in order to ‘fit you up’ in some way, do you think I’m being underhanded and manipulative? Do you think I didn’t make a genuine mistake saying ‘us’ instead of ‘me’? I can’t tell. I’m telling you the questions that are swirling around in my head. I'm confused.

[portia guest]

PS I have to go now, back tomorrow, bye for now.

[Certain Hope]

Portia,

You’re right I said ‘us’ and that wasn’t my right. I should have said something like  “you’d need to confirm, deny, talk about this with me”. I was wrong to say ‘us’. I’m sorry I invited Sela back like that, implyng she might talk to ‘us’.

Apology accepted.

Re: I don’t think I understand this CH. Is this about me and my apologies? Do you think I falsely accepted your apology to me, in order to ‘fit you up’ in some way, do you think I’m being underhanded and manipulative? Do you think I didn’t make a genuine mistake saying ‘us’ instead of ‘me’? I can’t tell. I’m telling you the questions that are swirling around in my head. I'm confused.

None of the above, Portia. My turn to apologize again.... I forgot to include the quote from you from which I gathered that you had recognized  a missing element to my apology... something that you would want included in order for this apology/reconciliation process to be satisfactory for you.

It was this:  (specifically the "but")

Do we need reconciling? Don’t think so, from my point of view, because I don’t think we were apart but:

aha, I think I’m getting somewhere, I guess it takes both parties to agree on each and every aspect, apologies are totally reciprocal. We have to both agree what happened, where we are now, where we want to be?
I want to say, this is outside my area of responsibility and it’s not my business, this is my….feeling. I feel uncomfortable about the current relationship between you and Sela.

What I read you saying here is that it might now be proper for you to make reconciliation between you and me contingent upon our agreement in each and every aspect, including that aspect around which I have already drawn a boundary (which you said you'd respect).

I hope that you can see I've not interpreted anything you've done as being false, underhanded, manipulative, or disingenuous when I tell you again (as I did in my previous post): Portia, I'm not upset with you or angry that you did this, because I think you're doing the best you can with what you know.

I see that I should have worded my #IX b differently. Instead of using the word "false", I should have said "changing" or "fluctuating":

Beware of changing acceptances of apologies, which later come along with added contingencies.

Yes, I think that's more appropriate. Again, my apology for my poor choice of words.

Sincerely,
Hope

[Bones]

Thanks, Hops!

I don't think my friend was conciously thinking that.  At times, she still frustrates me when she makes assumptions, then assumes that all her assumptions are automatically "magically" true, act on those assumptions without doing a reality check, then look to me to clean up her mess!!  Each time, I've told her "Nope!  I'm too busy!  You're the adult.  You deal with your own mess!" And I leave it at that.  Doesn't stop the attempts completely but she knows where I stand.  I refuse to take responsibility for other people's messes that they have created.

Bones

[Hopalong]

I get it bones...
but the translation of the behavior into: your time is not valuable...
is still implied.

Not intentional, but i was ready to learn it. So I embraced and say to myself now,
if I make this person wait for me without reasonable reason, something I can't help,that's forgiveable by others in my book. But if I'm just disorganized and indulgng my urge to do something else a little too long...then that message kicks in.

Hops

[Sela]

Hi Portia:

Sela sorry, I made a mistake there. I should have said you can confirm or deny to me, not to CH.

No prob P.  So I posted.  Nobody died.  No worries.   It was my choice.
I should probably have waited longer to see if it was an invitation all round.  Didn't think of that so that was my stupidity.  I'm sorry for not doing that.  I was too hopeful.

Sela

[Hopalong]

((((Sela))))

I feel for you. Sometimes I experience others' boundary-setting as being shunned.
It hurts.

But I know that's not the intention here...

Hops

[Sela]

Hi Hops:

I'm sorry to hear that.  It can't be very nice for you, feeling shunned like that sometimes.
I appreciate you saying that.

I don't think that's what's happening for me, though.  Thanks for sharing  and for caring Hops. 

Thanks for the hug too.  That feels good! 

Sela

on edit:  PS:  one just because  (((((Hops)))))
I must be needing more coffee 'cause I coulda swore I put a hug in there. 

Have a great day all!

[portia guest]

Hi Certain Hope

Thanks for your acceptance. I made a boo-boo, I know.

Re below: more clarity from me needed I think. I’ll try:

I forgot to include the quote from you from which I gathered that you had recognized  a missing element to my apology... something that you would want included in order for this apology/reconciliation process to be satisfactory for you.

  No no!! I haven’t seen any missing element. Big misunderstanding here.

It was this:  (specifically the "but")

Do we need reconciling? Don’t think so, from my point of view, because I don’t think we were apart but:

aha, I think I’m getting somewhere, I guess it takes both parties to agree on each and every aspect, apologies are totally reciprocal. We have to both agree what happened, where we are now, where we want to be?

This part of my thinking stops right here. I mean what I say, which to me reads: we both have to agree that we need no further reconciliation, apologies etc etc. The process is reciprocal. So I cannot decide for myself – as I did that “Do we need reconciling? Don’t think so, from my point of view” – this isn’t enough because – or BUT – you have a say too, you have to agree that nothing more is needed. The BUT was to do with the fact that I see it as reciprocal.

This part following : is totally unrelated to the part above. If I remember, there’s a  paragraph break between them?

I want to say, this is outside my area of responsibility and it’s not my business, this is my….feeling. I feel uncomfortable about the current relationship between you and Sela.

What I read you saying here is that it might now be proper for you to make reconciliation between you and me contingent upon our agreement in each and every aspect, including that aspect around which I have already drawn a boundary (which you said you'd respect).

Okay you read this meaning, but it is not what I intended. To be very honest, I see you reading wayyyyy more than I intended into my words. So much more that it worries me, concerns me, that whatever I say, I don’t seem to be communicating very well, or you’re taking a certain meaning from me. This drives me nuts because I hate misunderstandings! (Drives me nuts with a rueful smile I must say, not drives me nuts angry.)



I hope that you can see I've not interpreted anything you've done as being false, underhanded, manipulative, or disingenuous when I tell you again (as I did in my previous post): Portia, I'm not upset with you or angry that you did this, because I think you're doing the best you can with what you know.

I don’t think you’re upset or angry with me and I’m not upset or angry with you. I’m just …………………………… misunderstood. But that’s okay. I don’t have to understand everything under the sun and I don't have to be understood. And I trust that you're doing the best you can too, no concern there.

I see that I should have worded my #IX b differently. Instead of using the word "false", I should have said "changing" or "fluctuating":

Beware of changing acceptances of apologies, which later come along with added contingencies.

Yes, I think that's more appropriate. Again, my apology for my poor choice of words.

I don’t think I need to say anything here CH because I think you misinterpreted what I meant in the first place. Now I’m getting to the point of not knowing exactly what it is we’re misunderstanding each other (not all on your side, no way) about, so maybe just maybe…..we should leave it? What do you think? I dunno. I'm losing the plot a bit! 




Sela, thanks for replying. My mistake, my error, and yes, nobody died. No apologies needed but all offered, accepted, understood. 


Take care, gotta go. P

[Certain Hope]

Portia,

maybe just maybe…..we should leave it? What do you think?

Yes, I absolutely agree. Leaving it now.

I hope you have a good night.

Hope

[Bones]

I get it bones...
but the translation of the behavior into: your time is not valuable...
is still implied.

Not intentional, but i was ready to learn it. So I embraced and say to myself now,
if I make this person wait for me without reasonable reason, something I can't help,that's forgiveable by others in my book. But if I'm just disorganized and indulging my urge to do something else a little too long...then that message kicks in.

Hops

I see what you mean.  She does have a tendency to be disorganized and indulges her urge to do something else a little too long until I start raising my voice and remind her to look at the clock.  At this juncture, a reasonable reason would be in trying to get her mother ready to go somewhere.  (Her mother has Alzheimer's and can sometimes be a handful.)  Other times, she starts a new project when time is running short and assumes that "everything will be okay" until I point to the clock again.

Yesterday, she violated my privacy for the second time and I chewed her out for it.  (I don't like having my personal information given out without my knowledge or permission.)  When she was confronted with this second incident, she again responded that "she assumed it would be okay" and made a small attempt at an apology along with asking me to refresh her memory of what she did the first time, which was give my name and number to a total stranger because she "assumed" I wouldn't mind.  (I hate telemarketers!)  After I called her up and scolded her for violating my privacy, she apologized then forgot about the incident, and repeated history yesterday.  (She's been like this since we were teenagers.)  I'm about ready to confront her with the issue that she appears to be demonstrating with (a) my time is not valuable and (b) my privacy is not sacrosanct.  Grrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!

Bones