Sensitive Issue....

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hi All

I would really like to hear your advice as this is a very sensitive issue.

A friend was chatting to me today.  She has twin grandchildren, both girls, who are 3, 4 in December.  They spend each Saturday with her, and each Friday with her other grandparents who live only a ten minute walk from them.  Sometimes they also stay two nights a week with their other grandparents, on a thursday also.  Her daughter was 17 when she had her twins.

With my friend the twins have their own room and they share a double bed.  They idolise her husband (who isn't their granddad as her daughter and grandchildren are from her previous marriage)  If they want her husband to lay with them while they go to sleep, he always makes sure they are wearing their pyjama's and he is wearing his pyjama bottoms.  When they stay with their other grandparents, they sleep in a single bed with their granddad, and also their son sleeps in the same room and sometimes they share a bed with their son.

Last weekend, one of the twins was complaining about hurting down below and my friend has had a good look and checked her out, however couldn't see any redness or bruising.  It's not the first time she's complained of feeling sore down below.

I hope you can realise what I'm saying without actually saying it because it's too sick for words.  Neither of the girls are withdrawn and as far as I'm aware they haven't said they don't want to go to this grandma and granddad's, but I do feel with the seriousness of this, it can't be ignored.

I didn't know what to advise my friend, but I know she is really worried.  We have an airbed so I said I would drop that round tomorrow so they can take it to the other grandparents and at least the twins would have their own bed.  What do you think?  What can you advise?

H&H xx

[Certain Hope]

H&H,

I'm sorry to hear this and I do hope it's nothing, but I think that the people involved need to do everything possible to rule out any abuse.

Is the twins' mother aware of the one little girl's physical complaint? She needs to know. This, if there is a "this", may have nothing to do with the other grandparents... is the girls' dad in the picture (I guess maybe he's the "son" who sometimes shares a bed with them?) or does their mom have a boyfriend?

I do hope it's nothing. Maybe a chronic yeast infection?

Art therapy can be a great tool with little children. For instance, asking them to draw a picture of something that makes them happy... and then something that makes them sad or afraid. I don't think it would be too leading a question either to ask the little girl, "Can you think of any reason why you might be sore there?" ... watching her response/reaction very closely.

Children do not always withdraw or express avoidance for a person who's harming them. My daughter didn't. This went on for nearly a year before it escalated and then signs were evident and I asked her. Please do let us know.

Love,
Hope

[Healing&Hopeful]

Thank you ((((((((Jac))))))))) ((((((((((((CH))))))))))))))

I truly hope it is nothing, and like you say Jac, a false accusation can be just as damaging.  I am aware what a horrifying ordeal you went through Jac, and I was hoping you would respond.  I really value your advice on this.

Thank you so much for your words, both of you.  CH, I am so so sorry for what your daughter went through.

They have two sons and unfortunately it's not their dad who they are sharing the bed with, it's their other son.  They have a two bedroomed house and the Mum has one room, the kids dad the other room, and the granddad and other son sleep downstairs.  Their granddad is really poorly with a long term illness and is unable to get up the stairs which is why he sleeps in the front room.

My friend daughter and her boyfriend, the twins dad, split up a few months ago.  They have a on again off again relationship.

The girls tell my friend that they sleep with granddad and one sleeps at the top, the other at the bottom.  They don't get a good nights sleep and are shattered when my friend picks them up (which is why suggesting the airbed could work!).  Also, the grandma doesn't let my friend into the house, when they pull up she brings the kids to the door, and shuts the door.  My friend has never understood this, however her daughter has been inside the house and said it was fine.

I did mention to my friend to try drawing with them, but didn't think of doing something to make them happy or sad or afraid.  Thanks for this, I'll will suggest it to her.

Thank you so much for responding... it really does mean a lot.  My gut feeling is telling me that it is innocent, especially as there is no brusing or redness, but you just never know, do you?

H&H xx

[Hopalong]

Aii yi.

I am having a really different reaction, and maybe it's ignorance.

I am thinking how I was molested (not genitally) when I was 5 years old, and never told anyone. I was not threatened. I just "knew" I should not speak of it.

I am very worried about these children.

I am so glad you are their friend, H&H.

Hops

[seeker]

H&H.....

I am scared for those little girls.  I work for/with psychologists who work with little children, teenagers, and adults who are trying to put their lives back together because, at the hands of some adult -- or older child (usually a family member--bio, foster, step, or otherwise) -- their innocence has been stripped.  I firmly believe that it is  inappropriate for a young child to sleep in the bed of an adult who is not his/her parent---and even then, it "may" not be safe.  I may sound overly cautious, but seeing the damage done to these children who, very often, develop into  predators themselves, I don't think one can be too cautious. This doesn't necessarily mean one has to be overtly suspicious, but  there must be constant vigil with watching, listening, and educating oneself about the signs, which can be subtle, of childhood sexual abuse.  I do not believe in accusing, without proof; however, I firmly believe in taking the children out of a situation which can be even "potentially" harmful.  I would rather err on the side of being too protective, than take a chance with the child's emotional and physical safety.

[Portia]

Hiya H&H, thanks for posting.

saw your post a couple of hours ago and it’s been worrying me. I think what Jac and CH have said is good advice. I’m not clear about where the girls sleep regularly, when they’re with their Mum? Thing is, if anything is happening, where is it happening? It could be anywhere. Do they have babysitters? – and so on. I’m not worried about ‘who’, I’m worried about ‘if’ first.

I do want to echo CH’s question: "Can you think of any reason why you might be sore there?"

Last weekend, one of the twins was complaining about hurting down below and my friend has had a good look and checked her out, however couldn't see any redness or bruising.  It's not the first time she's complained of feeling sore down below.

How often has she complained and when does this go back to?

No physical signs doesn’t mean that someone isn’t inserting something – an object or fingers – into her. It doesn’t mean that someone didn’t hurt her at some point and any physical signs have since healed. She may be saying she hurts *now* but in fact she may have been hurt some time ago and is only now trying to tell someone.

Dear H&H, the girl knows the truth and presumably if she told your friend, your friend would act? What would she do? Is she afraid of knowing any more?

Playing with dolls may help. If she can have several dolls to play with, maybe your friend could play ‘how we sleep here at grandma’s, how we sleep at home, how we sleep at other grandparents’ – okay maybe not that obviously (‘what we do at home, what we do at…’). Playing with dolls can be a good way of ‘acting out’ what’s happening. But your friend needs to be prepared to believe her. Could she have a witness?

I wouldn’t tell anyone else right now, including the mother. If the girl is talking to your friend, I’d encourage your friend to keep talking to her and asking questions when she talks. It seems the girl trusts your friend.

Maybe she has been ill, had some sort of infection. In which case presumably the mother would have known and taken her to the doctor’s? How responsible is the mother (do you know her)?

I can’t get over the fact that this girl is telling this information to your friend – her grandmother. I am of course presuming your friend is telling the truth (and not reliving some trauma from her life through the girl). I can imagine anything – sorry H&H. That is a problem with not knowing the people involved, although maybe it isn’t a problem? People can be very strange.

Whatever you think you can do, tread carefully and as Jac says, watch.

Is it unusual for your friend to confide in you like this? Do you think she might have told anyone else? What’s her gut feeling, what do you think of her reactions….? etc.

Hey I don’t want you worrying about this alone. You can talk here, no problems. It may be a sensitive issue, but it’s THE most important issue we can discuss (not just possible abuse of this nature, but any abuse of young children).  Please keep talking about this H&H, for as long as you want to or need to.

I hope it’s nothing I really do. The girl knows if something is wrong or not and she'll be able to tell if she trusts she'll be believed.

[Healing&Hopeful]

Thank you so much ((((((Hops)))))) ((((((((Seeker)))))) (((((((Portia)))))))

I'm sorry for any feelings that may be resurfacing from discussing this.  I am so sorry Jac, CH and Hops for what you have been through.

Hoppy hon... I didn't understand why you said ignorance.  Do you mean our ignorance?

Seeker.... Thank you for your post.  If I had the power by they didn't go, then I'd use it but I'm very much an outsider in this case.

Portia.... The girls routine is at home Sunday - Thursday, then his parents Friday and stay over Friday night and her parents pick them up on Saturday and they stay over at theirs Saturday night.  At home they have their own single beds and at her parents they have their own double bed which they share.  This is mainly because her D works Friday, Saturday & Sunday, so her parents will generally drop the girls at his parents on Sunday and then her D will pick them up when she finishes work on Sunday.  They don't have any babysitters who come to the house as far as I'm aware.  Her parents have had the girls each Saturday since they were small babies, and as we tend to see them for an hour or so on a Saturday, we've seen the twins often also.  One has a tendancy to exagerate and make believe, however this is the other twin who doesn't tend to do that.

How often has she complained and when does this go back to?
As far as I'm aware, it's been twice, maybe three times in the last six months.

your friend would act? What would she do? Is she afraid of knowing any more?
Yes, I think she is afraid of knowing more, who wouldn't be.  However she does have the girls best interests at heart, and her and her husband are very protective of them so I am sure she would act.  Both of them would definitely have a lot of anger towards anyone who hurt either of the girls.

Playing with dolls is another great idea.... and I will suggest this also.  And I will recommend asking questions.  Both our hubbies are away next week, so I'll arrange to meet up for a coffee with her so we can chat then.

Maybe she has been ill, had some sort of infection. In which case presumably the mother would have known and taken her to the doctor’s? How responsible is the mother (do you know her)?
This is a possibility, however Mum and daughter are close and I'm sure she would be aware if it was the case of an infection.  How responsible is the mother?  I do know her, but not very well.  She's a 20 year old single mum who's trying to raise twins, pay for them and give them the best that she can.  She did have another boyfriend for a few months (my friend found this out from the twins and suggested that next time she keep boyfriends a separate part of her life unless it was serious).  So I would say she's not the most responsible person, but she loves her girls to bits and would be mortified if any harm came of them.  I can't really say much about the twins dad... when they were together she went out to work, he was out of work and made no attempt to get a job.  Left the twins playing downstairs while he was in bed, or he played on his computer.  He did no housework at all, and sometimes dropped the kids off at his Mums while he sat playing on his computer.  I'm afraid I don't think a lot of him.

Is it unusual for your friend to confide in you like this? Do you think she might have told anyone else? What’s her gut feeling, what do you think of her reactions….? etc.
No, it's not unusual... we've discussed many things, including childhood so I would be very surprised if she was reliving an old trauma.  Plus this has been discussed once when we have been with her husband too, so I'm pretty sure this isn't the case, however we discussed it in a lot more depth tonight.  I don't think anyone else knows apart her husband and me and H.  She thinks she may be over-reacting, which again I would imagine is quite a common thing to think?

It's a very difficult one, but I think through watching carefully and through various play with the girls, they will find out more information.

Thank you so much, all of you.

H&H xx

[Stormchild]

One other thing. Not minimizing, just putting one more possibility out there. If the girls aren't well bathed when they're visiting out, they might feel a bit of soreness from being allowed to stay more soiled than usual after they toilet. Just like diaper rash, but in an older child.

Only one possibility, not trying to minimize or divert. But it's good to consider as wide a range as possible while ruling things out and ruling them in.

[WRITE]

my son has a few times complained of soreness and after paying more attention to hygiene it went away.

My niece had a spate of urine infections when she was about 3 which left her sore.

I taught my boy- no one is allowed to touch your genitals or bottom; now he's older of course he understands but when he was small it was just a concept of 'inappropriate touching'.

I only finally turfed my son out of my bedroom aged ten; once kids get used to co-sleeping it's a long-term habit.

Your friend should take a break from overnight visits until the children are old enough to communicate better, it's in no one's best interests to continue them with suspicions of sexual abuse.

[Healing&Hopeful]

Thanks Storm and Write,

The hygiene makes sense also.... My friend has told me in the past that she feels the kids have more stability with them than anywhere else.  At theirs the twins always have a bath, and then bedtime, and then a bath again the next morning.  They won't let anyone else wash their hair either.  She feels she has to be careful what she says though because they are her grandkids and she's worried that her daughter would take them away from her if she annoys her daughter.  I'm not sure how real this fear is, or that her daughter would do that.  The kids love my friend and her H so much.

Many thanks everyone, for giving me an insight on how many different angles their are (I typed angels initially... you are all angels!) to look at this, and how many possibilities.

Thank you.

H&H xx

[Hopalong]

H&H,
I think I literally fell asleep while typing to you...woke up with my laptop on the floor. Yikes. But it's sitll working!

I meant my own ignorance...I'm just so glad that you and their Gma are going to take care of this as fast as possible.

I was watching a show on girls in prison and in one case they mentioned how for one six y/o the abuse went on for one month. And that was enough to do lifelong damage by completely destroying her innocence.

I am thinking that Non-N grandmoms who are close to the kids might have good intuition? So the sooner this is checked out and resolved, the better. No more tme to chat about it.

But in my ignorance of how to do that, I'll listen and learn.

So glad someone's taking action.

Hops

[Healing&Hopeful]

Thanks Hops…. Glad your laptop is still working, though you need to look after yourself gal xx

Hiya All

Well, I thought I’d update you all. 

My friend is going to speak to her daughter this week… she takes them shopping every Thursday, so she’s going to suggest to her daughter that his Mum comes over to their house on Friday so the girls can sleep in their own beds and so his Dad can get a good nights sleep.  This would then solve any issue that may or may not be there, without causing any concern.

We did talk again at the weekend, and it is highly likely that it could be a hygiene problem.  I also asked myself the question, am I thinking that because that is what I want it to be, but no I don’t think it is.  I think it is just covering every angle, and that seems to be the most likely.

Thank you all of you for your thoughts and comments on this… they have been a great help.

Take care

H&H xx

[Certain Hope]

Hi H&H,

Thank you for the update! Sounds like a very good and reasonable plan to me... common sense and simple.
 Wishing that family (and you, always) the very best.

Love,
Hope