Author Topic: for Jac Mac and Certain Hope  (Read 1995 times)

Hopalong

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for Jac Mac and Certain Hope
« on: August 12, 2006, 12:21:14 AM »
I did lots of thinking this week and I owe you both an apology for letting you "hang" while I went quiet.

Jac, thanks very much for your words of apology for a sarcastic moment. I felt I needed to stop posting for a time. I apologize to YOU for letting you wait a week until I acknowleged it! (I just hate it when I've said I'm sorry and I'm left wondering...ummm, when do I get the, I forgive you, part??? Am I going to?) I find that a real emotional strain, so if you have felt that, please forgive me. It seems really clear to me that you and everyone has done such amazing work, truly amazing, this week...I'm very impressed. Thanks for saying it, though, (((((((Jac)))))). I know you didn't enjoy things going awry at all. No shame, no blame, and I'm glad we're most all still here!

(One startling discovery about being quiet for a while...I am not the center of the unvierse and the Board functions just fine without me! Hmmm. Do you suppose it was doing all right before I discovered it and will continue to after I'm gone? How is this possible? Sounds very familiar...hmmm. I have heard of this principle...somewhere...planet Nanus?)  :?

Hi Hope [on edit--sorry, got my "CH" and my "LoH' wrong out of my fingers...drained brain, I know the diff!  :)]:
You are completely right that I was completely wrong about saying that you could't let it be after PB and RM made peace. I apologize. I considered your response, re-read the whole thread, and as you said, it was simply not there. One defense if I might...I was not "spreading lies" about you, CH. I would not do that. But I was reacting to you in an unaware way, projecting things about myself that I hadn't brought to the surface or recognized. I am sorry.

I thought about it several times this week, and asked myself: why did you display irritation in response to Hope, and misconstrue her response that way? What is that really about? It took me some work but I did have some insights. I'd like to share them, and I hope I express it well. This is what I figured out:

--Often something in another that I respond to negatively, whether I'm conscious of what I'm doing or not--is often about something I don't like within myself. I looked. There it was. This is not a description of you, because we are different people, but it's maybe something vaguely recognizable. (At any rate, it rang this chord in me about myself):
        At times I express my goodwill by almost going saccharinely good. It's sincere but also there's a thread of fear of being at ease with my whole, integrated self...that sometimes causes me to dollop on the sweetened stuff so heavily that for some appetites, it's cloying. What it reminds me of is the thing animal behaviorists say is behind some dog affection...we're busy thinking they adore us when sometimes they're saying, ooo, I now wag and roll on my back because that's just...the thing you do to keep the peace. (I refuse to believe that my dog doesn't adore me though.) IOW, you, just being your own innocent self, remind me sometimes of a disowned part of myself that I've done some battle with. I have found myself in my 50s moving steadily toward more authenticity in my voice and my intentions...but there have been times when people have challenged me on that. (I am no saint, I do not love people limitlessly, and although I'm quite serious about compassion I really don't want to look too closely when I lose my grip on it. Good friends call me on it now and then.) When your tone on occasion reminds me of the sweet-front part of me (not saying your voice IS over-sweet...I'm not hearing it clearly and it's not my place to judge!! It's just that I am sensitive to an oversweet, and sometimes very preachy, note in myself at times). I can react out of unawareness because this is a part of myself I have trouble accepting. (That's no excuse for hurting someone's feelings, though. I do sincerely apologize.)

I think another reason for this (painful) is that my daughter has been quite brutal with me this summer. I told her I was worried about her becoming mean, and she said, well you're weak. She also once told me, "You've never taken a risk in your life!" (Oh, the stories she hasn't heard!.  :shock:) So...I hear what I perceive as a placating tone (as I have taken with her so often) or perhaps what I'm unconsciously reading as goody-goody or unctuous (NOT YOUR FAULT I heard it that way C-Hope!) and ... zing.

I hope you can see from this sort of unconscious association that this was not about you, Hope. Nothing wrong with your tone or way of writing (you're a very skilled writer) at all. This was my projection of ---(hmm, Anansi)---my own shadow. More than one shade...(in fact, someone here, now gone, grumped once that she felt "covered with goo." She didn't say it to me directly, but my intuition went, my god, it was me she's talking about, I'm a goo factory. I must be a fake! All this work to be good and embrace compassion and it's just making her teeth hurt!)

Another thing, which is quite ridiculous. Or at least I can laugh at it (hope you can). This one went off in my head around Wednesday. Same question, now why did you feel irritation at CH?

AHA! Another piece of the puzzle! My Nmother was a librarian and absolutely relentless (is there a word stronger than relentless? If so, please place it here, in large letters) about telling me what to read. Articles. Books. More articles. 10-page letters of her opinions that were following on the previous evening's 2 hours' straight of her preaching, moralizing, pontificating, opining, regurgitating....

[This would be the point where whoever that observant person was who said wearily, isn't there, say, an upper limit of 6 posts a day or something? would point out that I talk so much it's a wonder there's any oxygen left in the room. Thank heaven we each have our own supply. Ooops, no pun intended. Anyway, my posts average is....well, never mind. That's like telling my weight. I'll just say I am aware I am...talkative. Garrulous. Verbose.]

New thought! (From me to me...) Talking so much it drains people is not equal to claiming your voice.

Those who've put up with me a while, particularly when I have talked about my mother, know that one thing that nearly drove me out of my mind was her inexhaustible appetite for the sound of her own voice.

Apple. Tree. Ow.

I could conjure up more free-associating but the main thing, Hope, is just that I recognize that I had assigned to you some shadows of my own. And that's the most significant thing to me in what was happening.

I hope this reads constructively, and thanks for wading through it.  (That reminds me...I didn't mean "wading" as an attack on your person at all...but as you may see why now, about my mother, I can have that reaction to many, many referrals to readings or articles. I'm glad everyone said nope, they're just fine on here, because they are. I obviously don't have to read long "article posts" if it touches a weird place in me. That doesn't mean they come from a weird place in you at all...you are simply being helpful!) And considering that I have posted my poetry, multiple posts a day since November, a "sermon" and letters I wrote to Salon, I hardly think this pot should be saying anything to anybody else who has a lot of eager energy toward the board other than, hello there, sister Kettle.

I felt drowned out by my mother. Felt as though I couldn't find my bed for all the clippings. Felt like I was literally "wading" through all that lecturing. Which is, O Weary Irony, feeling very much like the combined noise of me, myself, and I.

Lastly, I was moved and very saddened by the great suffering you, and especially your daughter, have been through, Hope. I thought you were the little girl in her dream, and she was too, crying in rage, protect us!

I think you are doing just that by engaging in your work here.

In peace,
Hops





« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 06:21:43 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: for Jac and Hope
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2006, 02:00:32 AM »
Thank you much, ((((((Jac)))))))).

And I forgive you for eating my cake.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Anansi

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Re: for Jac and Hope
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2006, 02:38:11 AM »
Hi Hops,

May I read your post?  Is it ok that I read your post?  I wish I could ask first, then get an ok, then read.  It's strange that I feel guilty as if I'm reading someone's diary.  I know people are posting publicly.  I'm sure there's shadow here .. lately I'm exhausted so I've taken a break from shaddowwork.  On second thought, let me try it right now:

[SW] So what's going on?  I feel pain and shame and guilty for reading Hops post?  Go on,  it's personal stuff and who am I read to it? because she didn't address it to you?  yeah, it's private, so who read your private posts?  My @#$! mother invaded my every thought.  So you're angry because you had a need for your private thoughts to be given safety?  Is that right?  More than safety, go on, I needed my thoughts be allowed to be baked and yeasted up into cake form.  Your thoughts were not given a chance to bake up into a cake, yeah!  Even before I might even begin to have a thought I was hammered and hammered and hammered again and again and again, it just wouldn't ever let up ....  

Hops, I forgot what I was going to say to you.  
I remember now.
"AHA! Another piece of the puzzle! My Nmother was a librarian and absolutely relentless (is there a word stronger than relentless?"
..  hmmm, your right, I also can't think of a single grammatically correct word that's stronger than relentless.  Help.  I hope someone else will post one for us.  

I feel your love in your writing.  I don't view it as caretaking.  I see it as sincere honesty and having a big picture on things and I feel your gift of knowing how to spread love widely, even through telephone cables off in other countries.  The person who said the word goo was mostly likely afraid of love.  You give love and it's natural to receive feedback to know if it has been received.  
About what you daughter said.  I think she's transferring her disappointment of her dad on you.  She's really angry at him, not you.
I wonder what a role play might look like:

Daughter:  You're weak.  You've never taken a risk in your life!
You:  Are you feeling annoyed because you have a need to understand more about how to manage in this world?
Daughter:  Huh?
You:  Are you feeling annoyed because you have a need to understand more how to be effective in this world?
Daughter:  ...
You: ....
...
..
.

If you'd like to do a role play here with someone, you can play her and you choose someone here (who knows you reasonably well) to play you.

Love,
Anansi


Hopalong

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Re: for Jac and Hope
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2006, 03:03:10 AM »
Hi Anansi,
I don't know if I am strong enough to tackle my shadow full-on.

Right now I am in so much pain because my daughter's not speaking to me. She (25) doesn't return my calls or emails, even though I'm leaving a short voicemail once a week. She's my only child, I have no spouse, no sibling I can trust (Nbrother and I rarely talk)...and I did mention to her that I have a close friend dying, two family friends just dead, a very close friend I thought was going to die. I wasn't dramatic, I was just telling her.

I feel so unloved. She responded this week by email:

"I really can't think of a good time to call. Is there something special you need to talk to me about? Email's fine. -D" (almost never signs anything "love")

I did the best I knew how.

Well I'm glad I wrote you this because it's the first time I've cried since this started (when I sent her to France and said something about her tattoos to her hosts in an email, I was trying--wrongly--to control their reaction in advance because I was afraid they might dislike her...she replied saying she wanted only a superficial relationship with me, we have nothing in common. She was enraged.) Then last time she was home I made a STUPID remark when she said "gee I ate way too much, do you know how a person can make themself throw up?" and I was distracted by the TV and didn't censor myself and just didn't THINK (I had driven 4 hours about two years before in a panic because her stepmother helped me see that she was developing bulimia...not any more, thank god)...but when she asked me that it struck me so oddly that I said, with mild sarcasm and a "look"--well, I think you already know how to do that.

Again she was enraged and shamed and I am so so sorry and I did apologize but I can't take the words back and I am so afraid she will choose to live a life with hardly any contact with me and she's been the center of my heart for 25 years and I used to tell people my D was my evidence of "the god of getting one thing right".

And now I feel I got it all wrong.

I am glad I wrote you this because I'm sobbing and I guess I needed to.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Certain Hope

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Re: for Jac and Hope
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2006, 06:47:55 AM »
Hops,

  Thank you. Clearly you've had a very busy, intensive, productive week....  this is the best apology I've ever received and you've thoroughly cleared the air, as far as I'm concerned. Glad you're back.

With love,
Hope

Stormchild

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Re: for Jac and Hope
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2006, 08:31:08 AM »
Hops, I am simply awed.

I'm much too old to be your daughter, but if I were she, and were reading this thread, I would be extremely, extremely, proud of my mom right now, and heading for the phone to tell her so in tears.

may this come to pass for you, may you be reconciled one to another and bonded with a stronger love than ever existed between you, and may it last for the rest of your lives.

The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

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Certain Hope

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Re: for Jac and Hope
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2006, 08:42:23 AM »


Amen to that, Stormy.

Love,
Hope

Brigid

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Re: for Jac and Hope
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2006, 09:28:21 AM »
Hops,
Glad to see you back.  It sounds like you have a reflective and productive week away.

I'm so sorry about the tension between you and your daughter right now, but you have got to stop blaming yourself.  You may have made a couple of thoughtless comments, but give yourself a break.  If a 25 yo woman has not had to endure and forgive stacks of thoughtless comments by this point in her life, she is living in a bubble.  How many thoughtless comments has she made to you that you have forgiven and forgotten? 

You have apologized (more than a few times, I'm sure) and she should be willing to forgive.  You have been a great mom to her and if this is the worst of what she has had to endure from you, she should be counting her blessings. 

This is her problem and probably one for which she needs outside intervention.  She has dug in her heels and wants to find someone to blame for not feeling good about herself right now.  You are the convenient target and she knows how easily she can hurt you.   Is there anyone who is close to her that you can talk to about what might actually be going on with her?  Is she in therapy or is there anyone she trusts who might be able to convince her to seek some help?  It just sounds to me like there is much more going on than just a mother-daughter squabble.

No matter what, please stop beating yourself up about this. 

Hugs,

Brigid


penelope

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Re: for Jac and Hope
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2006, 03:10:23 PM »
hi hops,

I agree with Anansi.  Anansi, you summarized it perfectly for me :)  thank you.  and what a wonderful voice.

I am also sorry your daughter is so caught up in herself she forgot she has a Mom who needs her.  Like stormy said, that's gotta hurt hops.  (((((((((((((((((((((((Hopalong))))))))))))))))))))))

B - might be on to something...

love, pb   xo 


moonlight52

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Re: for Jac and Hope
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2006, 03:23:24 PM »
HOPS ,

Everyone has told you the same your daughter is young

When she does come around and she grows up alittle she will

return your love.

oh Hops ,  I am so sorry you are hurting .
 

Moon                                                                (((((((((((((((((((((((((HOPS)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
« Last Edit: August 13, 2006, 11:53:57 PM by moonlight52 »

Hopalong

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Re: for Jac and Hope
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2006, 05:33:09 PM »
Wow.
So much true comfort here, thank you enormously. I'm puffy-eyed but feeling better (it's odd how seldom I have a good bawl). Once or twice a year, maybe? Afterward I always think, well that needed doing.

Bless you Anansi for seeing me. That's a big warm blessing that I don't have adequate words for. (And consider that you have blanket permission to read anything of mine, or here at all, of course, always.)

Brigid, you are a reality bearer, a perspective giver, a nonsense dispeller. THANKS. (((((B)))))

PB and...Storm, amazing what a few words of sincere empathy can do. Thank you, I feel it.

Hope, that description of my apology is a compliment I will treasure for a very, very long time.

Moon, you're a hug on legs. Here's one back. ((((we need a moonicon!)))))

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Anansi

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Re: for Jac Mac and Certain Hope
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2006, 11:47:06 PM »
Thank you for grieving.  Thank you Hops.  Your sacred tears are most dearly cherished and most dearly welcome. 
You honor your daughter also.   

I feel honored by our interactions.  I also feel how you express your love by how you express gratitude.

"you have blanket permission to read anything of mine, or here at all, of course"

Thank you.  I feel better to receive your consent.  And thank you Pb for your feedback.

Anansi