A really funny story...

[gratitude28]

As I said, my sister and I got along well and talked about all kinds of things this trip. (By the way, she almost believes the Narcissism stuff, but to her, Ns aren't old ladies...and, being that she was the favored one, I think she has no real reason to delve to far into it).

At any rate, we went to lunch with my parents and my kids on the last day I was visiting. My sister and I were saying that the only thing my mother ever talks about, and she tells the same stories over and over and over again, are her cats and dogs. My sister said she was going to puke if she heard one more animal story. So we are at lunch, and I am tired and not looking forward to getting on the plane again and have had enough of my parents... and mom starts talking about one of her animals again. And all of a sudden I yell, "Hey, whoever is kicking me, cut it out." I thought it was the kids, but it was my sister. I had to keep myself from dying from laughter there at the table.

[pennyplant]

Good thing the kids were with you!   

PP

[Stormchild]

Ouch, this hurts.

I've never had kids.

I cannot have kids.

All I have in my life are animals - and now I will feel judged and condemned if I talk about them here.



On edit: I know this wasn't intended, but it's still really painful. The worst part is that no amount of reassurance will change it.

I've run into this attitude often, from women with children, that somehow my love is less worthy than theirs, because mine goes to animals and theirs goes to humans.

I might feel differently about that if I had a reciprocal tendency to look down at women with children, but I don't, and never have. I don't envy them, I do admire them, they have a monumental task, the welfare of society rests on the shoulders of mothers - more than anywhere else - but the idea that my late night trips to the vet ER are some form of selfish indulgence instead of a commitment arising from love - while their late night trips to the peds ER are noble self-sacrifices - just makes me want to resign from the human race.

I wish we just valued love, period, and looked at the giver as much as the recipient, when deciding what the giver's love was worth. Perhaps then our oceans wouldn't be dying, and the polar bears wouldn't be drowning, and people would care enough about road kills that animal underpasses wouldn't seem too expensive to be built.

I'm sorry. I had no idea all this was so close to the surface, and I know you had no intention of uncovering it, none of this is about me or intended for me, you were laughing at an N. Is it N of me to love animals, though, when they are all I have, and all I can have?

[Certain Hope]

(((((((Stormy)))))))

I don't know what to say, except I'm glad you were able to express this and not stuff it within.

I've had a reverse experience... feeling bad for talking about my kids alot when someone expresses how much it hurts them because they never were able to have children.

I'm sorry.

Love,
Hope

P.S.  I talk about my animals alot, too

[pennyplant]

Hi ((((((((Stormy)))))))))))))), 

When I made the comment about it's a good thing you have kids, while laughing, I was also thinking of something sad.  It is something I don't know if I can properly convey, but it has to do with using my children as an excuse. 

I remember once driving with friends in my car and all the kids were in the back seat.  My friend's son was kicking the back of my seat while I drove and it was very annoying and distracting.  But I didn't have the guts or the skills to say directly to my friend's son, "Would you please take your feet off the back of my seat?  I can't drive like this."  Instead, I pretended I thought my son was doing it and said angrily, "C...., stop kicking the back of my seat!"  I felt incredibly guilty when I did this.  And this was not the first time I had used this "technique" to deal with my own cowardice and inability.  It was a defining moment for me even though I still, 19 years later, have a great deal of trouble owning my own annoyances.

I have often wished that I could go back in time and be a much, much better mother.  I have learned things about myself that I would rather not know.  It is true that children teach the adults.

I guess everyone has something in life that causes grief and it might not be what you would think.  Thank you for sharing what yours is.  I would never think you are N for loving animals as much as you do.  I am grateful for the people I know who love animals as much as you do.  Love is love in my book.

PP

[WRITE]

Hey Storm (((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

You would not believe how irritated I used to get by people telling their pet stories: now I am the one talking about my beautiful dog all the time and I get it!!!!

My son said to me recently- getting the dog is the best thing we ever did mum so he feels it too.

I think from Gratitude's perspective the mother has been unaffectionate and inattentive to them, interested in only her animals...eg. if my son said you only talk/ care about the dog I would be mortified.

So keep telling your pet stories, I love to hear them, and to know you have that warmth and joy in your life which I only just discovered, like so many things...

[pennyplant]

Oh, boy, I'm glad you posted WRITE, I took Stormy's comment personally.  She must have been talking about Beth's whole post.  Oy, what a do-do I am.

PP

[WRITE]

Oy, what a do-do I am.

I bet you didn't just muddle up all your dirty and clean laundry so you have to wash it all!

[Portia]

Beth

nice one, validation and humour!

My mother loves her cats more than any human in her life. That’s okay by me. I feel slightly ill when she treats them like humans and then expects me to treat them like humans (listening to them ‘speak’ and so on) but hey, I can remove myself from her presence yes?

I like cats too. I also like wild birds. Hey, I like all animals. I don’t keep any pets. 

Storm

I don’t have kids and I don’t want kids at 44, I think that would be both selfish and stupid of me. I did want kids once. Many folks don’t have kids, more these days, that’s why infertility is such big business. I don’t know why people don’t adopt when there are so many kids up for adoption. (Oh wait, I do know why they want their own genes reproduced.) Sad stuff, but life is sad.

Is it N of me to love animals, though, when they are all I have, and all I can have?

Not at all. Just because a couple of N mothers have this thing about animals doesn’t mean it applies to you right? Nothing wrong with loving animals, animals have a huge proven therapeutic effect on humans (ref: prisoners and kittens). I don't think you can have/own a cat though....the cat owns you yes?

All I have in my life are animals - and now I will feel judged and condemned if I talk about them here.

No need as far as I can see, not talking about you Storm.

Do you need to make those comparisons between animal-lovers and mothers with kids? Some mothers are crap at their mothering! Those mothers who say their kids are more important than your cats – well, don’t tell them what you do and don’t listen to them. Who cares what they think about you and your cats? Someone somewhere is bound to be upset about anything we can imagine. True?

[Stormchild]

Thank you Hope, thank you Write, for your kind understanding.

Pennyplant, you are the exact opposite of a do-do... thanks for pointing out something I'd never have thought of! That perhaps the stridency I've encountered has come from a wee bit of guilt in these women; ['I'll put down the quality of your affections because in that way I can feel better about the quality of mine.'] Subtil, subtil stuff, but  it makes it so much easier for me to meet it compassionately.

Portia, you are absolutely right. There are terrible mothers out there, and although I wish I'd had the chance to raise a family, I never met a man I thought was really fatherhood material.... Thanks for the healthy dose of common sense.
******************
Hope: a decade ago, I was trying to figure out how to get back to the States from Switzerland with my cats. I'd been able to fly over via Swissair, but coming back I had to use a US carrier that my new employer had a contract with, and I didn't trust them...

so I had to book a nonstop flight from Zurich to Dulles, and that meant getting myself and three cats to Zurich, never mind my luggage, without a car.

Train no good, the pause at the Zurich train station wasn't long enough for me to be sure of getting everyone and everything off the train in time if I didn't have help!

Finally a friend agreed to drive me... and as I was booking a hotel [so the critters would have one day to rest there before going through the airplane ordeal] I began to wonder if I wasn't overdoing it a tad, if this wasn't perhaps a furcovered form of idolatry.

So I prayed about it, and I have rarely prayed with more earnest desire for enlightenment before or since. So help me, the words "Proverbs 12:10" came into my mind. In that voice - you know the voice I mean, the one that isn't a voice at all, just clarity somehow formed into words...

And so I went to look it up. And guess what it says - in the New International, which is the version I was reading through at the time, and the one I naturally went to.

Pro 12:10: A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel.

You could have knocked me over with a feather. My knees went. I spent a long time in tears of gratitude - holding and petting my cats, shaking like a leaf. And - of course - we all made it safely to Zurich, and safely back to the States...

Heaven help me, that I had forgotten that. What more answer do I need, then or ever?
*****************
Beth, thank you for this blessing in disguise!

[gratitude28]

Storm (((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I'm glad I opened a can of worms, because this brought up issues we all have!!!!

The thing that bothers me, I am thinking, as far as my mother goes, is that she only talks about animals as an avoidance of all other things. Because she could give a shit about my children or my life. That is why it bothers me.
I actually have too many pets!!! My Henry is the love of my life. He's an English bulldog and he has more toys thatn my children, wears clothes, and is a spoiled baby. I adore him and talk way too much about him. I have Piggy and Vincent, who are my guinea pigs and who are just too sweet. And you all ehard the saga with my guppies... so kids or no, I am an animal lover too. So that wasn't the point of my story.
My sister is actually afraid to have children. She is afraid she won't love them... like my mother.
Love is love. It doesn't matter whom you love, I don't think. My Henry is just like a child in that I can actually understand what he is saying to me by how he barks and how he is acting. I feel scared owning him knowing that he will only live for 8 - 10 years, most likely.
You see, when you spend any time with my mother, or even call her on the telephone, you have the same conversation EVERY TIME. How are you ... the weather's nice... the cats did this... the dog did that... I bought something new... ANd that's it. If you go outside of that parameter, things go haywire.
Stormy, I think it is great that you got that off your chest. Do you ever think of adopting, if you want a human child?????
Love, Beth

[Stormchild]

I used to think of it [adopting] quite often, but I'm single - always had life-eating jobs - and never found the right fellow. I wouldn't have wanted to be a single mom by choice; for me, it's different when life puts you there, versus starting out that way... I know others manage it magnificently, but I also know I could not.

So it's really OK.

Thank you, Beth, for being so truly wonderful about this. And I'd forgotten that Stinky Henry and the guppies are part of the gratitude household... shame on me.

Love you too.

[Certain Hope]

(((((((Stormy and cats)))))))))

(((((((((Beth and Henry, et al))))))))))

What wonderful stories!     Thank you both for sharing.

With much love,
Hope

[gratitude28]

You know something funny, Storm.... You were talking about how you asked for an answer and got that "clear voice...," well, this is not usually the type of post I write. It is kind of mean in a way and I am not sure what prompted me to write it. Maybe we all needed to get this out and that is why I had an urge to write it.
I would never be offended Stormy. And, trust me, I am living single parenthood right now... until February. I am not sleeping well, I am stressed out (losing a bit of weight, which is nice) and a lot shorter wiht my kids than I normally am. I hate it when I get short tempered. I love my kids so much and it is hard to be the only one responsible for htem.
One other thing that this whole thread brought up for me... I deal so much better with kids than with adults. I talk to kids like "real people" as opposed to talking down to them. I know what they like, and I always carry through on a promise if I say I will do something with them. Kids gravitate to me. I don't do so well with adults. I am afraid of adults in a lot of situations. I think it's because I never got to be a free and happy kids, like the ones I know. Don't get me wrong... I have a great job... deal with adults every day and such. But I am "on edge" or more "careful" I would say, when talking to an adult. Does this make sense without making me sound odd or crazy????? My mother talks to my 6 year old as if she were an infant. She says she, "Talks like Furby." Of course this is not true. My daughter has an extremely large vocabulary, a charming sense of humor and a totally individual sense of dress. My mother likes to "label" the kids and it pisses me off... i.e., "Alek ALWAYS...". If I could take two words out of my mother's vocabulary, they would be "always" and "never."
Wow, this turned into a long ramble.
Love you all,
Beth

[Stormchild]

((((((((((Beth))))))))))