Author Topic: Don't know what to say  (Read 8312 times)

Hopalong

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Re: Don't know what to say
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2006, 06:11:57 PM »
Dragonsamm:
When I was terrified that my daughter would stop crawling and give up, and neither of us could afford therapy for her, I went online and found multiple FREE ways she could find group support and nuture:
--AA, ACOA, Al-Anon (open meetings you can go to even if there's no direct family history of alcoholism. It does not have to be your primary issue for you to get support and learn new ways to cope there...so many people in these meetings have been crawling, or worse, for a long time)
--Community mental health organizations that run support groups on a sliding scale (if you can only give $5, that's what you do)
--Psychology depts at universities sometimes have student-run clinics for PhDs in training
--churches don't charge for caring about you, and have so many supportive subgroups
--support groups for various physical ills
--a volunteer activity that will take you out of yourself and connect you to a larger purpose than your nuclear family only (if you have to drag yourself a time or two, the next time you'll find it energizes you)

I know there are more. Please take yourself somewhere like this.

ReallyMe: That sounds so very very hard. You work hard at your restaurant and parenting and your mentor work and with this description of your h's inability to empathize, I understand even more why connecting with people is so important for you. I'm glad you've found ways to reach out, but it must be very hard to bang up against that personality. Do you ever find time to exercise? Just a thought.

Hops
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 11:48:45 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

reallyME

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Re: Don't know what to say
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2006, 08:42:41 AM »
Hey Hops!

Yep, I do find time to exercise actually :)  I go mall-walking and will be swimming 1 or 2 x during the week soon at my college.

I also have recently gone on a gluten-free eating plan.  I cut all sugars and grains out of my diet completely, as well as no fruit for a couple weeks.  Been having trouble with yeast in my body and have a strange thing in my breast as well, that I have to go get a mammogram for.

~Laura

Hops

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Re: Don't know what to say
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2006, 11:28:29 AM »
Got my fingers crossed for you, RM. (And thanks for sharing that detailed portrait of your stepfather...you have lived through some STUFF.)

I am having a little scare today although I feel 99% better. For about 40 min. this a.m. I couldn't spell ordinary words or find them in speaking. The left side of my head hurt a little as well as my left eye, etc. My doctor is thinking it's either a TIA (mini stroke) or an atypical migraine (Mom has had those...one put her in the hosp for a week totally incoherent, spouting gibberish).

MOI? Gibberish?  :? Anyway I'm not too scared but I have to have an MRI this evening.

Hops (sorry to hop into Draggon's thread but where you'd go?)

moonlight52

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Re: Don't know what to say
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2006, 06:22:16 PM »
Hops ,   

MRI'S ARE NOT FUN.

I do hope you are feeling better soon.

love ,

m

Dragons ,

I know just when I thought I could not go on I have .Where the human spirit gets the strength amazes me.

MoonLight
« Last Edit: August 21, 2006, 06:26:07 PM by moonlight52 »

Hopalong

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Re: Don't know what to say
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2006, 07:40:51 PM »
Thank you, Moon!
And I've been meaning to tell you how so glad I am that you're healing up, tummy wise.
I hope the arm heals very fast too. It must be frustrating not to be able to paint!

hugs,
Hops PS--I have also LOVED your comments about the cosmos lately. Bells ringing. xxoo
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Certain Hope

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Re: Don't know what to say
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2006, 10:54:06 PM »
Hi Dragonsamm,

  Just thinking of you and hoping that you'll be back when you are able.

Blessings to you,
Hope

dragonsamm

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Re: Don't know what to say
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2006, 11:11:24 PM »

Thank you for all the responses (again).  sometimes I seem to be writing to the Universe in general and don't really expect much response from people.  As far as spirituality goes, I am at a place where i have no use for most organized religion, I have a more Eastern Religion type of belief that may be unique in itself.  I don't believe the Bible is the single and final Word of God, I believe God speaks to us every day because we all are part of what God is.  No single entity out there sitting in judgement, I believe that every soul is a drop of water in the ocean that IS God.  We create our existence everyday.  Something along the lines of a Cosmic Consciousness.  And still, in the midst of this belief in the value of all souls, I find myself to be an invisible drop in that ocean.  No value beyond my job as "one of the drops".  Cognitively, I know this is skewed thinking, but the emotional side of me feels no connection to the whole.  So there's the rub......
I just don't feel like I belong anywhere, that I'm needed anywhere beyond what YOU need from me.  I will give anything I can to anyone who needs it, but I don't feel much returning to me.  Because I don't know WHO I REALLY AM, I cannot give anything of MYSELF to you.  Take what you need, but you don't know a thing about what I need.  I grew up with a belief that if a thing is not offered to me specifically, I have no right to ask for it.  Indeed, I am WRONG for even wanting something that no one else believes I need.  Again, I know cognitively that that is not true.  But...........
The phrase "You're doing it wrong" has roots so deep in my life, I cannot begin to unravel it all.  I had an abusive, angry father, and an emotionally unavailable, perfectionist mother.  Anything a person can DO, I've been told I do it wrong.  Including sleeping, breathing, walking, talking, eating, etc...................
This phrase is SO insidious in my life, I struggle with it all the time.  It pops up everywhere and undermines my self-esteem, my confidence, my dreams, well, everything.
One of the responses to my posts was a suggestion about joining a support group.  I have no physical addictions beyond overeating.  I don't smoke, I don't do any drugs (except Ibuprophen for body aches), I drink rarely, and only one or two even then.  I don't gamble, I don't spend money way over my head, I don't secretly cut myself, I don't abuse small children, i'm not a sex addict, so tell me WHICH group do you think would even begin to understand why I'm there????
Also, I live in a very rural area, extremely limited resources (I've already been through the local Mental Health Center and back out again.)  And how would I ever find the trust that people in one of those groups truly cares about me?  I have some kind of an emotional block, I guess.  When I make friends with someone at work, even, I have a really difficult time when they quit and don't keep in touch. 
I know I am rambling here, but I guess it doesn't matter if one person can make sense of it all.  It's never happened before.  Maybe I can just get bits from different people.
Maybe not.  but writing in my journal has finally become a chore.  I've been talking to myself for actually 36 years, doesn't seem to have changed anything.  A lot of the time, I still feel like the 14 yo I was when I started.  Clueless.
I feel the need to apologize for my darkness.  (don't mean to bother you....) even though I know that thats what this forum is for--being truthful.
So, for no one and anyone I'll go way out on a limb:

                                               Sadness

                                             Black raindrops
                                             splash against my window
                                             and drip, slowly drawing
                                             streaks on the glass.
                                             The darkening skies
                                             release these tears
                                             like watercolors.
                                             Opaque and grim,
                                             they slowly cover
                                             everything
                                             with dripping
                                             spatters.
                                             The way a cloud
                                             shadows the sidewalk
                                             on a sunny afternoon,
                                             these black raindrops
                                             obscure the
                                             brilliance
                                             of life.
                                                                 --S Roemer (dragonsamm)

            Thanks for your ears, guys!!
             :)

Certain Hope

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Re: Don't know what to say
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2006, 11:26:49 PM »
Welcome back, Dragonsamm  :)

  And now I don't know what to say except... I hope that you will not find writing here to be a chore. It is good to hear from you again... you've been in my thoughts.

With love,
Hope

Hopalong

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Re: Don't know what to say
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2006, 12:16:19 AM »
Dragons,
You seem like person with depression. Are you taking antidepressants?
They've been so heloful to me.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

dragonsamm

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Re: Don't know what to say
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2006, 02:00:22 AM »
Hi
Jac, you have said a couple of things that I want to respond to.  The act of seeking help when one knows something is wrong, well, I've been doing that for a very long time.  I have had 3 counsellors that I became quite comfortable with, trusted them fully, and each one seemed to me to only be listening.  I will not discount the value of being heard, but I came out of each of those relationships feeling as if the counsellor simply believed I would figure it out on my own, somehow.  While each of them touched me in meaningful ways, I always felt that client/therapist wall that prevented me from feeling the love I need to feel along with being heard and cared about.  I just have never felt truly supported by people I can give nothing to (therapists I have to pay in order for them to listen to me).  I have been searching for help for a very long time.  How can i continue to believe that I will find it after all these years of falling short???
And that takes me to another comment you made about a possible belief that my life cannot changed.  I have always (until recently) had an optimistic, imaginative outlook on life.  Amongst the years of sadness and depression, I fought the good fight, even to the point of expecting good things to happen to/for/around me.  I think I had an expectation of something coming along that would inspire me to some greatness or other.  My purpose in life, so-to-speak.  Something exciting and perpetually inspiring, something i could sink my teeth into, give myself completely to. 
All I can see at this point in time when I look back at my life is that i was living in a fantasy.  I wasn't expecting to marry a movie-star, but it only looks as if what I always wanted was nothing but a Hollywood dream.  How do I ever trust myself to dream again?  If I spent 30 + years believing in a dream that didn't exist, how do I ever know what IS possible now???
I had a good friend once who continually encouraged me to "never settle".  Sounds good, but what i want to ask anyone who can answer it is:

What is the difference between "settling" and simply accepting what i CANNOT change?
How do I ever learn the difference between what i can and cannot change????
I'm a little late in getting to that question, I'm afraid.  Should have done it at 17. Or 25, at best.

To Hopalong:   You mentioned antidepressants.  Yes, I took Prozac for several years and it helped me learn to control racing thoughts while I learned from all the books I was reading how to change some of my thought patterns.  I stopped taking the drugs when my finances dictated it, and seemed to deal with things pretty well for some time.  I think the problem now deals more with the circumstances I've dealt with in the past two years, including 1)my youngest child moving out, leaving me with a quite unexpected case of Empty Nest Syndrome, 2) quitting the second job that allowed me any kind of financial freedom, then 3)losing the remaining job a year later under very stressful circumstances,4) the failure of what appeared to be a promising relationship (after being alone for nearly 10 years), 5) returning to college (with great anticipation after waiting years for the timing to be right) and being bitterly disappointed by the experience (I got the credits, but it left me with a strong resistance to go back), 6)moving 300 miles from two of my kids in order to be closer to friends that i believe are more supportive than any of my family, 7) continued failure to obtain gainful employment in the new location.  All of this added to the litany of crap that permeates my every move (thanks to those clueless parents i mentioned in an earlier post), and what else could I have expected than to completely lose myself, my dreams, my belief in a better life???
I don't think drugs are what i need, really.
I need answers.  And I have a high expectation that they aren't out there.

Someday I might feel it unnecessary to thank everyone for their responses.  But not yet.  I still find it surprising every time I come here and see that someone has responded to me.  It's a wonderment.............. :)
So, thanks again.

dragonsamm

Stormchild

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Re: Don't know what to say
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2006, 07:34:34 AM »
Samm, I have the impression that we are alike in many ways. Unfortunately I read this thread last today and have to go to work, but I wanted to let you know that I understood EVERY WORD YOU SAID because you are describing my own life, almost exactly, when you describe what you have been through.

That is not meant to diminish you, or to invalidate you, or to put me in front for attention. It is to say that I know what you mean because I too have lived it.

I'll try to get back here today and give you something of substance, but if I can't manage today, I'll definitely be back some time over the weekend. In the meantime - unglamorous as it seems, endurance is a virtue, and one well worth having, though not for the mere sake of enduring... that's where the twisted legacy of abuse comes in. We learned to endure so much, and were promised a light that has never come, at the end of a darkness we did not create.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 07:41:55 AM by Stormchild »
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Brigid

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Re: Don't know what to say
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2006, 09:13:50 AM »
dragonsamm,
First of all, welcome.  I can relate to much of your frustration and sadness, and will also be entering that empty nest world alone as of next week when I take my youngest to school.  I think we are of similar ages--I am 56--and wondering now what I will do when I grow up.  I found my passion in being a wife and mother, but both those jobs are now over for the most part.  Everyone tells me I need to find a new passion and follow it.  I don't disagree, but sometimes those things aren't readily apparent and I'm not sure which direction to go to find a new passion that is doable at my age.  My parents were similar to yours, but are now both dead.  I have one brother with whom I have no relationship whatsoever, and absolutely no other family to whom I am close--either physically or emotionally.  I moved to where I am now 25 years ago because of my xnh, and obviously have established myself in this community and have friends here.  However, most of my closest friends are married and spending much of their time in warmer climates these days, and my children are both in school elsewhere.  I do have a wonderful b/f with whom I spend a lot of enjoyable time, but he is really the only reason I have to stay where I am, and it is very scary for me to have all my eggs in his basket.

You are fearful that you cannot change who you are and how you feel about life.  I understand this, but maybe you are trying to change too much at once.  Perhaps if you just took one small aspect of your life that you would like to change or improve and put all your energy into that, you may start to see some successes which would improve your overall outlook.  Sometimes when all we see are the negatives it becomes too overwhelming to find anything positive.  It would be similar to the discussion we were having on another thread about housekeeping and clutter.  Sometimes the clutter gets so overwhelming that we can't imagine ever getting it sorted out.  But if we start with just one table or one closet and get that in order, we can start to see the possibilities of cleaning up the rest.  Sometimes we need some professional intervention to help us do the sorting.  Maybe you need to consider revisiting that with the attitude that you are going there to seek change and not leave until you see progress.

I don't know if any of this is useful, but I wish you well regardless.

Brigid 


Certain Hope

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Re: Don't know what to say
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2006, 09:24:55 AM »
Dear Dragonsamm,

Reading this last post of yours has brought some questions and thoughts to my mind which you may or may not choose to address, of course, but I'll put them out here and see what happens. Just so you know, I don't feel that the time I spend to do this obligates you in any way to respond. I know that what I have to say may be like one of those birthday gifts received and immediately taken back to the store for exchange and if that's the case, no need to acknowledge at all. I'm convinced that (most) everything we put into writing here has the potential to help someone, at some time, even if the person helped is no one else but the writer him/herself.

First, regarding counselors. Fourteen years ago or so, my family was involved with several counselors who tried to help us work through issues relating to sexual abuse issues/my childrens' father. Personally, I had varying levels of trust for each of these individuals, but all were equally detached, as well they need to remain, I'm sure. At the time, I found them all equally maddening because of this attachment. They listened and occasionally offered questions, but never the answers I sought. One woman said to me, "Everything you need to know is already inside of you."  This was not at all what I wanted to hear. I wanted someone to tell me what to do, to provide a formula for the restoration of my family (my personal dream) along with a guarantee of success. I believed that if I could just complete a certain sequence of steps, everything would be alright... just tell me what are those steps and I will meet the challenge! Well, I met the challenge, but obviously I couldn't drag anyone along with me on that journey and ultimately my family (my dream) fell apart anyway, despite my best efforts. The falling-apart phase consumed me for a period of 8 years, bringing me to the point of despair, at which time I met the most narcissistically disordered man I have ever known, beginning phase 2 of the destruction of my barely surviving dream. After all of this, I can say along with you:

  All I can see at this point in time when I look back at my life is that i was living in a fantasy

From what you've shared here, I gather that your dream began with the finding of a sense of purpose. You envisioned another human being presenting that purpose and giving you opportunity to fulfill it? I did.
  Something exciting and perpetually inspiring, something i could sink my teeth into, give myself completely to. 

I tried to accomplish this dream via my husband, my children, a career... none of that was sufficient or "faithful" in the sense I'd imagined it should be. In other words, life isn't fair. Imagine that. How dare the universe not comply when I was working so hard to be good and to do well! I understand that you don't accept the Bible as the authority, but I hope you don't mind a couple quotes from the book of Ecclesiastes:  All is vanity. And..  "of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." (I, too, read until I thought my eyes would fall out.)  Cognitive understanding can build a databank of information, but getting that knowledge from head to heart is another matter entirely.

   In an earlier post, you mentioned the "apparently pointless struggle". This sounds to me like that dark night of the soul which Stormy will possibly address when she can. In my own life, this was the bottoming out which brought me to my knees before God. Don't worry, no sermonizing here. I only want to say that I'm quite sure I'd still be in that blackest of pits if it weren't for His grace and mercy and tender touch on my spirit and heart 2 1/2 years ago. My marriage to a man with NPD left me financially destitute with 3 children still at home. I was stalked day and night by this man who considered me his possession and promptly got myself into an instant relationship with a seemingly very helpful guy who also showed signs of objectifying me. To my eyes, the entire world looked "N" and I only wanted to bail out. On top of all this, I had my own "litany of crap" with N+ish family members encouraging me to relocate back to their state where they could "help" me. No thank you very much... I'd rather stay in my pit alone.

To this: "I need answers.  And I have a high expectation that they aren't out there" .... I have an answer:
I think you'll find exactly what you're looking for and if you expect nothing, that's just what you'll get. I did.
I think you know that in your heart, but what you fear most is... to hope. I had that fear and nearly settled for remaining in it. It was at just that moment when God released new hope in me, hence my screen name. I know that I cannot give you hope to own for yourself. I can only tell you that I lost it and then regained it by what I can only say were miraculous means.

You asked:  What is the difference between "settling" and simply accepting what i CANNOT change?
The answer, I think, is hope. Hope is the difference. There's an essay (ok, it's more of a sermon) which says it all alot better than I can.  "The Triumph of Hope - When Should We Continue to Fight? When Should We Accept Defeat?"

http://nehemiah.gospelcom.net/hope3.htm

I hope that you'll receive this in the spirit in which its offered, Dragonsamm. You see, I don't believe in coincidence and here we both are... and to me it would be a crime to not at least offer you what I have to give, leaving it up to you to unwrap that gift or not. No strings attached, of course. Only alot of hope on my part... for you.












DreamSinger

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Re: Don't know what to say
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2006, 09:37:59 AM »

All I can see at this point in time when I look back at my life is that i was living in a fantasy...How do I ever trust myself to dream again? 


Well, you don't...not right now, and that's okay. Trust is something that is earned and developed over time, even with ourselves. We did not have the opportunity when we were little. Now, as adults, we can give ourselves what our parents could not, at least, learn to and grow into over time and through choices. Inner trust will be developed as you take each step toward your own healing.

I understand this part about realizing you've been living in a fantasy. It is an incredible betrayal, a self betrayal that can leave one stunned for a long, long time. It's, also, something that can fill you with a tremendous amount of regrets, as you wake up and realize just what a high cost your fantasy had on others around you, in my case, my children. But even in fantasy, there's some element of truth, and as time goes by, it will be clearer to you what's real and what wasn't.

For now, let yourself grieve.  It sounds like this is the state you might be in, and grief and despair are normal reactions.  I know, for myself, I needed to grieve, really, deeply grieve. I went from being numb, shocked and stunned to anger to sorrow, despair, depression to being numb, shocked and stunned to anger to sorrow...

It gets better. Truly. You don't have to believe it. You just need to go through it in the cadence that is yours. There's no map, so there's no right way or wrong way to do it.

And dreams are choices on a whole other level. Even when we don't believe in our dreams, they believe in us. It's like the song that finds the singer and the poem the writer. So it's not all on your shoulders.

Have compassion toward yourself. And if you're so sure you don't know what will work, then be less sure of what won't. Healing isn't linear. Just because something didn't work before, doesn't mean it won't be meaningful to where you are now, because you are a different person in a different place. No one stays the same. They either become deeper entrenched or they become lighter, but nothing stands still. That in itself is an illusion. Even those who are frozen can get colder, and those who see themselves encased in ice may actually be thawing.

For me, I've found the works of Thich Nhat Hanh to be most helpful. For all the years of walking my own healing journey, which a good part was trudging through the swamps of my fantasies, being blind to the bog I was knee deep in, because I was mesmorized by the pretty flower blooming off a swamp vine, I've struggled with incredible amounts of rage born of my childhood and the wonderful fallout of dysfunctional dynamics. The simple suggestion to sit still and be with my emotions as they came up, with no judgment - no right way, no wrong way, no right feelings, no wrong feelings, no justification, rationalization or condemnation - they are what they are. To not struggle with them or deny them, but to observe each one and greet them with compassion, as a loving big sister would to her cranky little sister, has totally changed things for me. I, initially felt contempt for this suggestion and disregarded it for a couple years, until my own reality brought me to my knees. Since then, I have experienced a deep sense of peace and healing I never thought was possible. How could I expect such a thing I was not even capable of comprehending?

It was this process that opened me up to the personal awareness that I was a drop of water in the ocean, and the ocean loved me.

And now I know this. I don't know why. I don't know how, and I don't care.  Like so much beauty and mystery of life, it just is.


Demian,
  ~DreamSinger

penelope

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Re: Don't know what to say
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2006, 10:00:19 AM »
There is a lot in this thread, and I want to respond to all, but am limited in time right now.  But I will start with dragon since you've started this wonderful thread.

hi dragon.
First of all, welcome.

I have only read to Storm's post, but I want to say that like storm, I know how you feel.  You've described almost perfectly and certainly painfully what it is like to be raised without "voice."  It is something that any child (now an adult) who's been abused by a parent(s) might feel I imagine, if they could somehow find the strength to emerge from that equally strong coping mechanism called denial.  So you are very brave indeed to name it.  You are courageous and strong in my eyes.  As for finding someone to validate us.  I too, struggle with this, so I know how this feels.  It has probably been one of the most powerful driving forces in my life - to seek out someone to validate me.  I am learning very slowly, sometimes taking steps backward in fact, that this person does not exist externally to me.  That person is within me, and it is in fact the child who was never validated that is now an adult.  I have to become that person for which I seek.  It is difficult - probably the most difficult challenge I've ever faced in my life.  But it is so crucial for me to find this strength in order to "thrive."  Some might say that it is God within me, that would give me such strength.  They might be right about that, I don't know.

Quote
I will not discount the value of being heard, but I came out of each of those relationships feeling as if the counsellor simply believed I would figure it out on my own, somehow.  While each of them touched me in meaningful ways, I always felt that client/therapist wall that prevented me from feeling the love I need to feel along with being heard and cared about.  I just have never felt truly supported by people I can give nothing to (therapists I have to pay in order for them to listen to me).  I have been searching for help for a very long time.  How can i continue to believe that I will find it after all these years of falling short???

Regarding the above.  I know that something that has helped me is to give up the expectation that I would find the above in others I meet.


(((((((((((((((((((((((dragon))))))))))))))))))

p. bean
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 10:03:19 AM by penelope »