Author Topic: A gentle talk at a table  (Read 2471 times)

Anansi

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A gentle talk at a table
« on: August 21, 2006, 10:30:36 PM »
The following is a trial practice leaning attempt at a gentle conversation that leaves both sides feeling good between PP and Anansi with Hops coaching Anansi.
....

Hi PP,

How are you doing?  What's the weather like where you are?  Over here in Western Canada, it's a bit cool and windy.  The summer was very short here and it seems most people are back to wearing long pants.  But most shirts worn are still short-sleeved.  Outside the north-facing window of my little apartment, I can see the branches of an evergreen tree waving with the wind.  ~


Hopalong

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Re: A gentle talk at a table
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2006, 11:48:02 PM »
How are you doing?  What's the weather like where you are?  Over here in Western Canada, it's a bit cool and windy. 
[if you were really across a table...I'd pause here. Give the other person a chance to ramble about the weather.]

The summer was very short here and it seems most people are back to wearing long pants.  But most shirts worn are still short-sleeved.  Outside the north-facing window of my little apartment, I can see the branches of an evergreen tree waving with the wind.  ~

[I am sure it feels ridiculously awkward to invent a f2f conversation by typing, but this seems very pleasant to me. It does sound written. Maybe the last sentence starts to go a little far into transports, a little poetic for introductory chat. Maybe, "nice shirt" would be the next.
 
Anansi, you really must try to be shallow.  :lol: Let's see if PP takes you up on it! I wasn't sure she agreed, she sounded reluctant to do this experiment, so if it's a dud, please don't be hurt...might be reaching too far in cyberspace. But that's my "coaching" bit if it's useful so far. And don't hesitate to dump me, and I'll exit from the job if I bog down--not taking it personally!
--Hops]
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

pennyplant

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Re: A gentle talk at a table
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2006, 05:13:47 AM »
I can't help it--I'm laughing away at 4:54 in the morning  :lol: :lol: :lol: .

Anansi, I will describe what my reactions would be in person:

Western Canada?!?  You live in Western Canada?  I would love to go there someday.  It sounds exotic to me!!!  And I always tell people, I hate hot weather, and when I retire, I will retire to Canada so I will be nice and cool in my old age.

                            Hops?  Too much about me?  Too much off the topic?

Well, Anansi, here in Western New York (see, we already have something in common, western...) it has been changeable.  Sunday was like fall and I loved it.  Yesterday was like summer and I was inside and thinking, it is beautiful, but I liked yesterday better.

                            Hops?  Yes, I think you are right.  This sounds written.  I like the poetic part though.  Makes me think I have something else in common with Anansi besides western.  Also, there was a note of reluctance to participate in this experiment, but..... also I was intrigued, so here I am.

So, Anansi, what do you think you are going to order?  I like just about anything that comes from a restaurant.  Probably start with Chai Latte.  And leaning toward a quiche or a wrap.... well, plus dessert......
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

Hopalong

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Re: A gentle talk at a table
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2006, 10:17:53 AM »
Quote
Hops?  Too much about me?  Too much off the topic?

hey, get your own coach. We're very expensive.  :lol: And I'm due in Beverly Hills and have a session with my new personal trainer and...ohh, broke a nail! $%^&*()$%^&...
[but since you asked, nice balance, sounds good. Now y'all don't get too friendly too fast now, hear?]
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Anansi

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Re: A gentle talk at a table
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2006, 03:58:15 PM »
Thank you Hops and PP,

I'm smiling too.  I forgot that talk at a table is f2f.  "Anansi, you really must try to be shallow." - I'll try.  Thanks for noticing this.  Hops, everything you said is already helping me.  Thank you.  I know you'll also take care of yourself.  If this job feels like work, please don't hestitate to say you've had enough for now.  Your help is a gift.  I know.  I will not be hurt if you feel uncomfortable with this task and decide to take a bow out.  Namaste.  btw, I appreciate your sense of humour.  

Sorry about my mix up over written dialog or one f2f.  Let me start again.

(at a well lit restaurant between two adult Humans, colleagues perhaps)

A:  How are you doing PennyPlant?

pennyplant

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Re: A gentle talk at a table
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2006, 05:52:10 PM »

A:  How are you doing PennyPlant?


PP:  Hi Anansi, I'm doing pretty good.  How have things been with you lately?
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

Hopalong

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Re: A gentle talk at a table
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2006, 11:22:24 PM »
[Awesome! Nice job, A. Simplicity may sound dumb, but it's not...it puts people at ease.
Hmm. A thought. What might get you all contorted is that you are unawarely focusing -- not just now, you're great -- but Out There, I think you may be focusing too much on making a presentation, worrying and thinking too much about how you sound, composing too carefully. The cure is to give yourself an inner affectionate whack on the head to snap out of your reverie and fear about YOU, and get interested in the other person. Not too many questions too fast, because that doesn't put people at ease. But just a few to show that you're open and interested in hearing more about them if they feel like chatting.] And if somebody doesn't? Gentle peaceful and turn off to do something else interesting with your next moment. Don't hang your wellbeing on your listener.]

(PP hon, praises to you too but I'll just give them to Anansi here...that okay w/you? If you want some feedback do tell me....oops. You did. I blew you off because I was showing off. Sorry about that. But if you know what I mean, it'd probably help A. more if I take you for granted--just in this thread and just for a while! Let me know if that's not okay.)

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

pennyplant

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Re: A gentle talk at a table
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2006, 01:39:53 PM »
Hops,

I learned something this morning when I checked on this thread.  It gave me a lot to think about today while I was at work.

It is true what I said, that I was reluctant to do this, and that was apparently detectable from the way I first responded.  Yet I participated anyway, being "intrigued".  I did note that I am terrible at conversation, perhaps as a disclaimer for any possible goofs and perhaps also as a heads up, that I could use some pointers too.

And then this leapt out at me:

(PP hon, praises to you too but I'll just give them to Anansi here...that okay w/you? If you want some feedback do tell me....oops. You did. I blew you off because I was showing off. Sorry about that. But if you know what I mean, it'd probably help A. more if I take you for granted--just in this thread and just for a while! Let me know if that's not okay.)

I truly understand what you are saying here and doing here.

What leapt out at me was the decades old familiarity of it.  Not so much the words, no one has ever said it quite like that before, but the results and possibily the motivation.  This , my friends of the VESMB, is the story of my life.  And not typed with one ounce of sarcasm in it.  This truly is the key to my place in this life.  My place in groups, in the family (except my current family, where my husband has assumed my usual role of "can take care of yourself, doesn't need remediation as much as whoever and whatever"), at work, in stores, restaurants, school, etc.

People can tell when I'm uncomfortable or struggling or whatever, and they apparently can also tell that I'll be just fine and will carry on anyway and they can then be free to use their finite resources on more pressing problems.  I save a lot of people a lot of effort in this way.  And I have been doing this to myself all my entire life!  But I never before saw it so clearly.

And so it is more than okay that you said this.  It kind of frees me up too.

Because--I thought maybe I should also explore why I felt reluctant to participate, and also why I was willing to participate anyway.  Reluctance to partipate.  It is not so much my erratic conversational abilities.  It is the source of those erratic abilities.  I don't really believe in small talk.  Nor idle conversation either.  I like to talk about real things with real people I have a bond with.  I may well have trouble identifying who those people are sometimes.  But that is the goal.  And with real people I have a bond with, I even enjoy small talk and joking and even being obnoxious and over the top.  It's okay when there is the bond.  Sometimes I am too friendly too fast or too excited.  Some people, I think, like that about me sometimes.  Afterall, they can have boring lives sometimes, too.  So, now that I have thought about this, here is the freeing up part:

Anansi, I didn't even give you a chance to tell me how you have been lately, but I have decided to change my mind and maybe listen in on some gentle table talk instead.  I will be at the next table with my chai latte and probably some kind of cheesecake.  I will be eavesdropping and trying to hide it.  Looking everywhere but at your table where you and a companion will be sitting and learning about each other.  I will wish I had brought my copy of Sun magazine with me, but I didn't, so I will listen to the ball going back and forth.

Hopsy, you're a very good coach.  In a completely natural, and probably unintended way, I learned something important because of your honest response.  This is one of those things that really makes a difference for a person.  I'm actually quite impressed.  It feels like I broke through a window or something.

So, off to check on the other new posts, then back to work for awhile where I might get to watch my Nfriend get all excited to be seeing his new supply source, knowing that even if he weren't N, he probably wouldn't worry about how I am with watching it because I am always fine eventually.  Or at least I give that impression sometimes.  And now I finally know how it is that that happens.  At least some of the time.

Towards the end of his life, my father told me he knew what it was he had done that had contributed to the breakup of his marriage.  But he also knew that at that time he was incapable of doing things any differently.  So with this, I have learned something important, when I was capable of doing something about it.  Perhaps life will become a different shape for me now.  At any rate, I will be very observant for signs of positive change.

PP
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

Hops

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Re: A gentle talk at a table
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2006, 04:07:47 PM »
Hi PP:
I am so impressed. You decided to change your mind. You felt an ambivalent cuirosity, explored a little more, then decided to make a different choice. How healthy is THAT. (Very, imo.)

All done without agony (I hope).

Hi Anansi:
I'm enjoyed it on one level because I'm a windbag and love the sound of my own opinions flapping. On the other hand, doing this thread does felt more like "work". The reason is that it's...editing.

That's what I do all day for a living. Analyse and deconstruct and suggest alternatives to other people's words.

The other side of it is that I do genuinely like to help people. You are a worthy person who seems to be suffering great social isolation, and that's very painful for me to think about.

But ... how about a different tack? Will you think on that idea I had about the self-consciousness and self-awareness I think might be tying you up when you try to talk to people ftf? Does that seem on target?

If that seem to any bells, then I think you can do a great deal of that on your own, and it might be, probably would be, much more effective to practice in the 3-D world, and then post here and let us know how your efforts go. You know? Like, going into a cafe when it's not too busy and before you go in, set a goal:
--I'm going to talk to a friendly older waitress and see if I can ask her a few questions, and see if she'll respond for 10 seconds. (Yup, seconds.)

Then, day by day, staying always aware that your goal is to STOP thinking about Anansi's nervousness, Anansi's next planned thought, Anansi's rehearsed next phrase, what-is-that-person-thinking-of-Anansi....

Keep on doing it. Gradually increase your encounters (always being aware that someone might get busy or go haring off because they have something they need to do, or for some reason it ain't yours to figure out).

Just don't have a goal of "capturing" THEIR interest.
Go forth and offer people YOUR interest. Become a skilled listener.

I  bet you can make friends if you do that.

What do you think?

Hops (exiting the table, but not the restaurant)

Anansi

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Re: A gentle talk at a table
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2006, 06:25:57 PM »
Thank you PP and Hops for everything.

I think the lesson here was in the set up.  I asked for a conversation practice partner and I also asked for a coach to help me.  That part is OK.  I also wondered if perhaps my partner (whoever that may be) might consider finding their own coach since I knew it would be next to impossible and even crazy making if my coach had a conflict of interest and was brought in to coach my partner.  Roles were not clearly defined nor was the step up and for this I take responsibility.  PP, to be fair, please note that it was suggested that each person find their own coach (just like in a tennis game, how could the tennis instructor keep running back and forth jumping over the net) and that Hops gave hints early on that she could only handle one side.  Remember her joke about off to Beverly Hills and her broken nails?

Since this conflict in Hops (ie: wanting to help both of us but not clear if PP was clear on these roles and also wanting to help PP) wasn't ironed out early on, the steam continued to rise until finally the lid burst (ie: the comment of taking for granted; the impression that the coaching had chosen to play favorites or something like that).   Then from this misperception came a trigger.
The trigger served as a stimulus which in turn reminded the old brain of an old wound.  I do congratulate you PP for taking this as a chance to process some stuff.  I'm totally in your corner.  I know all too well about living from a place of an old wound. 
Ironically PP, just last night, I sat alone in a self serve restaurant in town having tea and a rich cake.  Also for what it's worth, I have been struggling since yesterday on how to answer this simple basic question.  If I answer I am fine, I'd be lying.  I still struggle with how this question is being used only as a ritual hello.  I take it too literally.  I'm trying to learn to not always be deep with everyone I meet. 

Hops, I know where you are coming from.  Thank for all that you've said and for your counsel.  I'll remember what you said about seconds.  I'm amazed at how well you understand me.  I'm grateful to hear the winds of your wisdom.  I felt a hmmm when I read,
"Just don't have a goal of "capturing" THEIR interest.Go forth and offer people YOUR interest."  This counsel helps meet my need for learning how to relate to others.  Thank you.

In the future we'll all look back on this and laugh!  (I hope so)
Dear God, May the wounds that limit freedom be healed, may laughter reign.  Amen

PP, how are you doing with this today?  How are you doing?

Anansi

« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 06:41:13 PM by Anansi »

pennyplant

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Re: A gentle talk at a table
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2006, 08:02:25 PM »
My feelings as a result of participating in this thread:

I am grateful for the important insight I gained as a result.  It was worth it just for that.

I feel dumb for not realizing that Hops' joke about getting my own coach was actually more of an instruction.  If this had happened in person I would have had the body language as my clue that I should not get too personally involved with your experiment.  So, I missed that clue.  While I was interested to see what kind of commentary I might personally receive (N-spot?), it was not on my top five list of what I hoped to get out of this.

I participated mostly to see what would happen and what I would learn.  Feelings of curiosity?

I participated partly because I was asked to.  Feeling overly-responsible?

Now I think I would be wiser to not do things because other people ask me to.  It is time for me to do things because I want to.  Having that knowledge feels good.

Some synchronicity:  Went to work this afternoon with the N-friend.  Was part of a foursome, including him, having a fun conversation.  He talked past me the entire time.  Then it got more annoying from there.  I was glad when he left and am glad I won't be working there next week.  So, I made great strides with disengaging emotionally from this person.  And I believe I was more open to disengaging because of the insight from this morning.

I feel some anger and some resignation.  I feel anger because I still wish I were more valued than I really am.  (I can't be the only person on this board who feels that way!)  Resignation because what I had hoped for at this point in the healing process was that if only I weren't depressed or anxious, that underneath it all, the real me would turn out to be a happy people person who would work well with others and be sought after.  Instead, it is turning out to be more of the same.  I'm something of an outsider, who can be entertaining once in awhile, but who mostly just needs to be capable and self-sufficient so the rest of the world can have fun and not have to work so hard.  So, that leads back to some anger.  My husband suggested becoming a boxer to take care of that.  But I think I'll just let it slowly dissipate and think on things some more.

Anansi, the other members you listed as possible actors--I'm curious as to the reasons for asking particular board members.  It is interesting that nobody else agreed to do this.  Did the other members, if they were aware of the request, sense that it would be awkward to supply some words but not actually get personally involved?  I assumed that participation in the exercise meant partnership.  I'm beginning to see that I assume this type of thing often and often enough end up disappointed.  I wonder how other people seem to know how to avoid such situations.  When my N friend first approached me about his little game two years ago, I also assumed that it was personal and that we were equal participants.  I guess he assumed that I would be equally cavalier about the whole thing and be able to blow it off or forget it easily.

It seems I know a little better now.

PP
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

Hopalong

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Re: A gentle talk at a table
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2006, 11:13:40 PM »
Hi PP,
I'm awfully sorry if I hurt your feelings, PP. I sure didn't want to do that.
I'm not quite clear if I did or if it's the painful associations the experience touched off.
But truly, I'm sorry regardless...I certainly triggered things by assuming your not minding being "taken for granted"--yikes. I can understand how that banged on a bruise.

I was impressed with your chutzpah in trying out Anansi's role play (but didn't take for granted that you would)! I liked it that you changed your mind and didn't drag it out uncomfortably for yourself.

I love hearing that you felt annoyed and NON-mesmerized by the N when you saw him today, too. I imageine that also hurts. It's like seeing something crumble that you used to find beautiful, and it's a loss. The reality means losing the dream. I'm sorry.

(((((((((((((PP))))))))))))))))))))

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: A gentle talk at a table
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2006, 11:14:57 PM »
Anansi,
I can sense your good intentions and well-wishing. Your gentleness.

I'm really glad you understand your hapless ex-coach and that there was a useful tidbit in there.

Thank you,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Anansi

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Re: A gentle talk at a table
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2006, 11:49:45 PM »
Hi PP,

Maybe I shouldn't reply but here I am anyways:

"I feel dumb for not realizing that Hops' joke about getting my own coach was actually more of an instruction."

I didn't say it was an instruction.

"I should not get too personally involved with your experiment."

I have undeveloped social skills and I reached out to ask for a partner to learn how to have a basic decent conversation.  I never called it an experiment.  This has negative connotions for me.  

"I was interested to see what kind of commentary I might personally receive (N-spot?)"

I'm surprised and hurt.  I didn't expect this.  

"I participated mostly to see what would happen and what I would learn.  Feelings of curiosity?"

or perhaps more N supply?  (yes, I still feel hurt)

"I participated partly because I was asked to.  Feeling overly-responsible?"

Next time I will ask you, "PP, why are you helping me? Are you doing it because you in some way feel obligated?"

"It is time for me to do things because I want to"

Amen!

"I'm curious as to the reasons for asking particular board members"

I picked those I thought I knew well enough to feel safe with.  

".  It is interesting that nobody else agreed to do this."

That's not the case.  You were the first.  

"Did the other members, if they were aware of the request, sense that it would be awkward to supply some words but not actually get personally involved?"

Are you asking me or them?

"I assumed that participation in the exercise meant partnership"

Are you meaning to address this sentence to me or your former work colleague?

I'm gonna take a break from this board for a few days.  

Anansi




pennyplant

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Re: A gentle talk at a table
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2006, 05:54:09 AM »
Anansi,

In some ways I feel misunderstood here.  I believe I will be making things worse if I go point by point as I am tempted to.

So, I will continue on my own journey and leave you to yours.  I still think it was interesting, which is a high compliment from me.  I will read your future posts with interest.  Another high compliment.  But I recognize that I am not far enough along on my journey to be helpful to you at this time.

Pennyplant
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon