Needing some re-direction about mediation with the psycho.

[movinon]

I feel like I know the answers here, but I'm needing to hear it so I know I'm not going totally crazy...

Okay, so we are almost done with the psych. eval. (pretty sure it wiil come out on my side) and now we are looking at possible mediation.  My L. says she wants to talk to the psych. evaluator to see if she thinks it would even be do-able with his personality (domestic violence has been a factor to which he is in total denial about).

He has already violated the temp. orders (sold a vehicle, having gf spend the night, hiding $$$ overseas).  "Rules" i.e. temp. orders mean NOTHING to this man.  There are things that he doesn't even realize I will be going for (like him throwing out half of our household - really- into the street for the garbage people to pick up, making 7K of "improvements"  - which never got done - on the house that we sold using OUR money that he took out and put into an account that only HE could access, and on and on.)

My fear is that he will deny all of this and absolutely REFUSE to negotiate or even consider that this might be factual info. (there are people who can corroborate my story, but getting them to commit to putting it down LEGALLY is another story).  I don't think this will even be a bargaining chip for me in the rest of the deal as he will not even be able to wrap his brian around the possibility he did something underhanded.

So the question is, how successful has anyone been at mediation (2 seperate rooms)?  I would like to avoid going to court, but I think that's the only way he will hear anything or be made to pay.

Movinon

[Sela]

 Hi Movinon:

You don't sound like you're going totally crazy to me.   I hear sanity in your voice. 

 I've not been through mediation but a couple of thingys in your post caught my attention:

1.   

"Rules" i.e. temp. orders mean NOTHING to this man.

  Prepare yourself for the idea that mediation won't mean much either.  In other words, isn't he quite likely to act in a similar manner in regard to the whole process?
Possibly ignor agreements?  Maybe just waste everybody's time?

2. 

I will be going for ....

     

I think that's the only way he will hear anything or be made to pay

Be careful about using these kinds of phrases as they can be misconstrued as  revenge seeking or worse.......gold digging.  Rather, you are entitled to your half, your contribution, yours and your children's welfare/needs to be provided for, your property to be released or replaced, etc.  Court might be the only way to settle this.  You have been hurt by this person's abusive behaviour but all you want is what is rightfully yours, what you are entitled to, your share, etc. right?

3. 

My fear is that he will deny all of this and absolutely REFUSE to negotiate or even consider that this might be factual info. (there are people who can corroborate my story, but getting them to commit to putting it down LEGALLY is another story).  I don't think this will even be a bargaining chip for me in the rest of the deal.....

Do your best to ignor his reaction.  Speak the facts and know the facts and be confident that you are telling the truth.  He can deny all he likes.  You don't need to hear him admit it or acknowledge it or react to it or anything else.  Pretend he's a tiny wee bug with a voice so quiet you can't hear it or that he isn't even there. 
Or if it's a matter of his responses being reported to you by the mediator, do your best to make simple statements:  "That's not true".  "The fact is........."  "Regardless of his opinion, the facts are......"  etc.

4. 

as he will not even be able to wrap his brian around the possibility he did something underhanded

I bet you're right and he won't be able to admit the slightest fault of his own.  Is this really about that?  Is it likely that his denial will ever lift and allow the light to shine on his true behaviour?  What matters now?  Getting an admission from him or getting your fair financial share and letting go of him and his crooked/twisted/mucked up self?

I hope this helps a little.  Hopefully others with more experience will be along shortly to offer you support.
It doesn't sound like much fun, Movinon, but it won't last forever.  Soon, this will all be just a distasteful memory that you don't have to think about at all, if you don't want to.

Sela

[Certain Hope]

Dear Movinon,

  N-ex-husband and I didn't go through mediation, since there wasn't any real property to be divided. On the other hand, I accepted being left with all of the debt we'd incurred together because I knew it would cost me much more to try to get a judgment against him for his share of it. My suspicions were confirmed when he finally evaded the judge's order for him to pay my attorney's fees by filing for bankruptcy.
 
   I was fortunate to not have to deal with him directly throughout the process, because I had an order of protection in place. On numerous occasions, he violated that order, even to the extent of "stalking" me in the courthouse hallways, but the worst he could do was give me his sadistic glares and keep walking. Even that is alot to manage when you're at the end of your rope. Thankfully, I had support from the women's domestic violence center throughout the worst of it. A lady from that organization would strategically place herself at my side, even when sitting in the courtroom, so that his glaring and leering at me was obstructed. He is so sick.

  Anyway, I recommend that you make peace now with the fact that he's entirely likely to deny all of his own wrongdoing and try to make himself come out of this smelling like a rose. It's just the nature of the beast. If you can come to terms with that as a fact, your mind will settle into a calmer place of "just the facts, ma'am; nothing but the facts."  There's alot of self-talk involved with this to stay in that place of being a neutral observer to the antics of N.  I can see how a mediator could offer a much needed buffer zone for you. No direct contact with N is always best, I think. I don't see how that can be accomplished without going to court.
The only thing that may be able to hold N accountable is his own fear of those who weild power over him and his wallet. I'd say, let the judge do that and know that the facts will stand for themselves.

  I am so sorry that this is dragging on for you, Movinon. I do believe that you are gaining in strength even though you may not feel that right now. It's building within you... a sense of purpose and determination that will get you through this no matter what N tries to pull out of his hat. Cheering for you from over here.

Love,
Hope

[mudpuppy]

how successful has anyone been at mediation

For me it was a complete and utter waste of time. It occurred after I had filed suit and it was still just a farce. As the mediator began to get serious and talk of hiring appraisers, etc the other party ended the mediatiion.
The funny thing is he could have had a settlement very lopsided in his favor in mediation. Now he absolutely hates the decision the court gave him instead.

Go for a jury, you'll crush him. And you are entitled to more than just your half of the assets. You are morally and legally entitled to restitution for the damage he has done.

mud

[Brigid]

Movin on,
My ex and I did settle by way of mediation, so did not need to have the judge decide.  My b/f and his ex also settled this way, so I can give you a pretty good idea of how it goes.

The mediator we used was considered by my attorney to be one of the best in our area and was previously a judge.  He started by having all parties meet with him together to lay the ground rules, then had the two groups split into two rooms.  Anything you share with the mediator is kept confidential unless you say it is OK for him to share it with the other side. 

Both parties usually have to give in to some things if they want the process to work and come away with a decision in place.  In my case, it took about 3 hours to come to an agreement that we could both live with.  In the case of my b/f, they went 7 hours one day and continued a few more hours the next before they came to an agreement.  It can become an expensive proposition if it takes a lot of hours.

I had some ammunition which I was prepared to use if necessary, that I had found in my background searches of my ex's stuff.  I shared some of that with the mediator so that he understood what kind of underhanded behaviors my ex and his father had performed in order to hide income and assets.  He was not cleared to share the specifics with my ex, but perhaps suggest that some further investigation into business dealings, plus his being deposed by my attorney regarding his finances, would be forthcoming if my demands were not met.  I think that scared him enough to have him just agree to some things that he might not have otherwise.

I'm not sure how much proof you can obtain of your stbex's behaviors, but certainly the more the better.  Have you considered the hiring of a PI or forensic accountant to do some background checks for you?  I had a forensic accountant involved, which helped somewhat.

If I can answer any specific questions, please ask and I'll see if I can help.

Brigid

[Hopalong]

Hi MO,
I can't help with this one but wanted to send you some sisterly support anyway.
I really like the suggestions of expecting less than nothing from him, and unhooking emotionally.

((((MO))))

Hops

[Plucky]

Hi Movinon,
I agree with everyone about unhooking emotionally and restricting your talk about getting money from psycho.  (Your secret thoughts are another matter.) 
It doesn't matter what he thinks.  It only matters what happens legally.  There are ways of getting him to pay against his will, namely garnishment of wages and seizure of goods.  He can respond by claiming bankruptcy or hiding assets.

If the assets are significant enough, the forensic accountant is a good idea.  You also have to take into account how he will react and whether you think he will stalk you, or worse.  And remember, it's only money.  You can always get more money from someplace, but your time and peace of mind are finite and fleeting.
Good luck
Plucky

[penelope]

hi movinon,

Having been through a divorce where the debt was split in half, but ex-h refused to pay his half, so I had to pay to retain my credit in good standing - then after the debt was paid off, I could file a suit to get him to pay - which I won - but he still didn't pay, so I had to file to garnish his wages with a state marshall where he lived..they are not regulated by any government entity, but are private companies now (I had problems with those folks too, and it cost me more money to get them to to do their job and give me my money, figuring out who to complain to was a job in itself - all the time I was worried the company would go under and keep what they'd collected of my money from my ex - sometimes holding checks for 3 months or more although they collected from him weekly). I will say, it is hardly worth it.  You will not get what you expect to get, you will lose some percentage all around.  First the judge will take what you've asked for and decrease it by some percentage (thinking its inflated), then the interest that should be accruing on the debt will never materialize (in my case, I was awarded 10% from the date of the judgment - I never got this interest), and depending on what your ex does for a living, you typically only get a percentage of his pay monthly, in my ex's case, this amounted to about $300/month until the debt was paid off, as they calculated this is what he could afford.  Is it worth it?  What if it takes him his whole life to pay it off interest free?  Depending on the amount of money at stake, I would say your efforts are better put making the money elsewhere cause you're going to spend a lot of your own money, and emotional energy fighting this for something like $300 a month.  If he ever changes jobs - you will have to hire a process server (at $150 a pop or more) to serve new papers, and start the process all over again..get a new writ to garnish his wages, etc.  Are you going to hire a lawyer everytime to do this for you?  I did it myself (couldn't afford a lawyer, nor did I trust any), but made a lot of mistakes, and wouldn't do it again.

there are people who can corroborate my story, but getting them to commit to putting it down LEGALLY is another story

All you need is written evidence - receipts, or other paper proof.  If you have this and he doesn't, the judge will take your side.

hugs,  hang in there movinon, I know how tough this is
pb

[gratitude28]

I can't offer any advice, but I'll be pulling for you on this end and I hope others will see what you know to be true!
Love and luck,
Beth

[WRITE]

http://www.divorceinfo.com/txhelps.htm for some TX divorce regulations for anyone interested.
 
 "Rules" ...mean NOTHING to this man.

it's interestign how different Ns are- I still think maintaining psycopath as a definition is useful rather than bunching all Ns together because my ex would certainly obey any externally imposed rules.

However he would resent doing so and any negotioations or relationship between us would be compromised.

Everyone else is giving you good experience and advice, I would just add- and I know how hard it is- don't take it personally.

He's behaving how he behaves because of his lack of social skills/ empathy, thoughtness and personal issues.

It's not you, don't let what is happening erode your self-esteem any more.

[movinon]

Wow!

Thank you all so much for the support and advice.

Penelope - He works as an engineer for a MAJOR oil co., so it won't be going under anytime soon.  He's taking vacations overseas, giving thousands to his gf's parents, buying new vehicles, etc.  He's got plenty.

Jac - did you quote Yoda?  I love that.

lupine - I'm not sure if my state REQUIRES mediation, but will look into it.  I'm used to the frustrating excercises in family court by now.

Plucky - He'll hide assets, and am pretty sure he won't stalk me.  He's got a "rep" in the community to keep up.

Hops, gratitude - thanks for chiming in.  Your support means a lot to me.

Brigid - I do have some ammunition, but doubt he will be scared by it.  I hired a PI and so far they have found no open accounts where we USED to have accounts.  I'm having them look into when those accounts were closed and how much was in them at the time.


Mud -

Go for a jury, you'll crush him. And you are entitled to more than just your half of the assets. You are morally and legally entitled to restitution for the damage he has done.

Thanks!

Hope - I'm glad you had support in the "stalking" - what a sicko.  I like the advice of just the facts. Thanks for your kind words and support.  It helps to hear that I'm still actually moving forward.

Sela -

In other words, isn't he quite likely to act in a similar manner in regard to the whole process?
Possibly ignor agreements?  Maybe just waste everybody's time?

Yes, yes, and yes

Be careful about using these kinds of phrases as they can be misconstrued as  revenge seeking or worse.......gold digging.  Rather, you are entitled to your half, your contribution, yours and your children's welfare/needs to be provided for, your property to be released or replaced, etc.

That's my sole purpose.  Thanks for pointing out the language.

Is this really about that?  Is it likely that his denial will ever lift and allow the light to shine on his true behaviour?  What matters now?  Getting an admission from him or getting your fair financial share and letting go of him and his crooked/twisted/mucked up self?

Well, when my anger and frustration is up, I want an admission.  My intellect knows he will not/can not change.  I just get so tired of him walking around saying he's a "man of integrity" and he is into "personal growth" and "looking at his faults" and I'm the one that is the devil.

Okay, I want my kids to have what they deserve - what's fair and belongs to them - and I want what's fairly mine.

Thanks again for all of the replies and thoughts.

Movinon

[Brigid]

Movinon,

He's got a "rep" in the community to keep up.

This is definitely a positive when dealing with an n liar.  This was true for my ex as well--he and his father have a very well-established and successful business in this community which carries their name, so I milked this for all it was worth.  Being exposed for the schemers and liars they are does concern them as nothing is more important than the persona by which they are perceived.

Okay, I want my kids to have what they deserve - what's fair and belongs to them - and I want what's fairly mine.

This is no less than what you and your children deserve.  I know too many women who gave in to give up the fight and lived to regret it when they couldn't support themselves and their children.  It can also cause a great deal of anger and bitterness when you watch him down the road living the good life while you struggle to make ends meet.  I hope your PI can turn something up which will be useful to you.

Hugs,

B.