Is Guilt an Appropriate Feeling?

[Overcomer]

Hello Everyone...............I have been complaining for some time now.  My nmom and I are going to go to counseling.  We had a blow up yesterday and even though I am SURE that I am right, I admit that I have become VERY snotty.  I point out things that my mom "forgets" and she accuses me of trying to convince her she has Alzheimers.  I point out that she is arrogant and prideful and she is convinced that I am being disrespectful.  She tells me I insult her.  I tell the truth - with a hammer - now I feel guilty.  I have decided to give it up to God, but then I turn around and start planning who we might sell the business to.  I have contacted the man I think wants it more than anything.  But I know if she finds out that I am talking to this man, she will feel betrayed - and I feel guilty.  I feel like a "bad girl."  Then I think, maybe he'll open a similar store and hire me and bookkeeper away............then I feel really guilty.  Then I think if I did that it would serve her right - but she might disinherit me because I am a "bad girl."  But she has betrayed me so many times - but I feel guilty.  Am I insane?

I cannot wait to go to counseling.  We are going to go apart from one another then together...............I cannot wait to be the rational one..........

[Hopalong]

Hi Kelly,
I'm so glad you're going to counseling. Good for you.
Maybe being "right" isn't always being "rational" (even though I'm sure you are!).

Maybe there's some bigger things...and a counselor will help.

That would be the most wonderful thing possible, if you and your Mom could have some moments where you get beneath all this stuff, to where the hurt is, and then beyond that, to where some love is.

Guilt? I think guilt is okay if you agree you've been hurtful. Just don't make the guilt so much a part of you that it turns into terrible toxic shame. You have really beeen so frustrated and unrecognized...I can't think of much that would be more difficult than being in business with your mother but needing to be respected as a smart, competent adult at the same time.

I think it's wonderful you're going to do counseling. Imagine...you've learned so much here, and reading, and reflecting---and your mother maybe hasn't had these opportunities for insight. It might even be partly a generational thing.

So don't be surprised if she's way behind you in terms of what she's aware of...but let her be a human being, give her a chance if you can (without harming yourself).

Good luck, will be eager to read your posts...

Hops

[Certain Hope]

Hi Kelly,

    I just wanted to say... I well remember that feeling of insanity. I also remember realizing that I had begun to act and react much like N, out of pure frustration at the impossibility of all his crazy-making behavior. Honestly, I just don't see how it's possible to think clearly and respond well as long as there is such an entanglement with someone who is extremely narcissistic. To be financially tied to that is to be in an impossible situation, I think.  (((((((((Kelly)))))))))  As long as you know that you can't change her, I believe that you'll be fine and hopefully this counseling will clear up alot of issues for you.
  
   Toward the end of our marriage, I felt guilty for telling others about N ex-husband's abusive behavior, especially when it came to the point of having him put out of the house when that behavior escalated to physical threats. I felt that I had betrayed him and probably would never have followed through if he hadn't petitioned for divorce immediately thereafter. That's how deeply entrenched in feeling responsible for him I was, so I know how difficult it can be to break free.
In my situation, he was not supporting me financially, so I didn't have those ties to bind me... he barely worked. Fortunately for me (in the long run) over the course of our divorce, he stalked me to the point that I was willing to take on all liability for debt simply to be free of him. Maybe that was his plan all along, I don't know. I'm just glad I didn't stick around trying to get a better deal moneywise, because there was no healing until our contact was completely ended. Praying the best for you always, Kelly.

With love,
Hope

[pennyplant]

Kelly,

Maybe the guilt feeling is just inevitable because you are a person with normal emotions and empathy.  The counseling should really help you to sort out some of this and make it more manageable.  It really sounds like you're making some progress here.  Even though it doesn't feel so great!  My best wishes to you.

((((((Kelly)))))))

Pennyplant

[gratitude28]

Hey kelly,
You brought up something that I have been struggling with too. When I lived at my parent's, I adopted a lot of their attitudes as a teen. They felt that anyone who didn't know/like the things they did was stupid and uneducated. Even though they are not college educated, they believe they are the smartest people in the world and that the things they like are what all people should like...
At any rate, I had this asshole of a boyfriend in high school and college... he was VERY superior acting... and was, in fact, very well-connected and wealthy. I met a lot of "famous" people and went to a lot of cultural events, and so on. I also started acting like everything he knew was much better than what my parents knew. The fact is, my parents are very "nouveau riche" in their ideas... they don't get the idea of quality and real value. But I was very snotty about it at the time... really I was mimicking their actions. And when I married/set up house/had kids, I was continually "proving" I was better than them.
So I feel like I am the one who turned them off of me. Or at least I felt that way. Now I don't care. I have learned to live my life for me... not to be an example to someone else and not to prove anything. Still, anything I do now is met with skepticism by them; i.e., if I like it, it won't be something they would like.
Anyhow... I hope this helps you in some way see that while we can react badly, the seeds are planted there by the way you were treated. Does that make sense????
Hugs...
Beth

[Overcomer]

Thank you for your responses...........I appreciate the objectivity because I do not think I am very objective right now.  No.  I am not rational.  I believe I am mirroring my nmom's behavior right back at her.  It's almost like I am giving her a taste of her own medicine.  I'm making sure she feels just the way she has made me feel for all these years.  I am trying to take back the 42 years of total control (that was 4 years ago when I BLEW UP!!!!)  In a way, I am vindicating myself.  I finally have had so many people come to me and tell me that if my mom made me feel the way she makes them feel, then they feel really sorry for me - being raised in such an invalidating home.  So yes, I am not going about it correctly - I get that.  But I cannot just allow her to walk around with her nose in the air and give her the respect she thinks she deserves - no, I don't respect her.  And I cannot overlook her forgetfulness - Am I trying to convince her she has Alzheimer's?  No.  She IS getting it and she doesn't want to admit it - it is easier to be suspicious and accuse me of setting her up (Hey, isn't suspicion part of that disease?)  And counseling?  You guys, she will absolutely deny anything, she will try to turn it back on me and label me unstable............I guess I am acting like an N myself...............because I am sure I am right and no one can tell me that I am wrong (that's an N trait, isn't it?)

So when I go to counseling I am going to tell them all the awful things my mom has put me through.  I will tell them about the frustration.  I will expose her for what she is.  Then she will accuse me of attacking her.  And in a way, I will be because it is just so dang hard to stay composed............

But?  I feel guilty for turning into a vindictive, angry, bitter, bitchy, frustrated woman whose goal in life is to take her down.......just take her down.  To win.  To finally have the final say.  To finally have success.  But success at that price is worth the guilt.  Why don't I just walk away in love.........................................?  Try to end our business relationship with mutual admiration.  But if I went to work for the other guy, she would consider it a betrayal....................so I cannot win.  Even if I quit and work anywhere, she will consider it abandonment...........................

[Certain Hope]

Hi Kelly,
 
  Just something to keep in mind, in case you ever need it...  I didn't bring N down, but I still won... because I'm free of him.

Love,
Hope

[gratitude28]

Hi again, Kelly,
My main goal in life until the past few years was to be right and "show everyone" that I was right in the first place. Honestly. If someone did something to me, I would just sit back and wait with a smirk, knowing that they would "get theirs." And with supreme glee, I watched as each one of the people did have bad things happen to them.
Well, fortunately I became a drunk and found a 12 - step deal... I learned to "Live and Let Live" and to get over being so concerned with if other people "got theirs." I also learned that I cannot be a happy or productive person with all that anger boiling inside of me. Yes, there are still rotten people in my life at times (my FOO always...), but they no longer have a hold on me, because my focus is on ME and my family now.
Kelly, you are still directing all that bad energy outwards. I hope you will see the great person that is YOU now and start to respect her and trust her and take care of her. So what if your mother gets angry. Is it worth what you are doing to yourself?
Of course you can see this through to the end... you can watch her deteriorate and get some nasty pleasure out of it. What will that ultimately get you? It won't give you back the happy years that you missed out on. The only way you can find some peace now is to move forward. You can prove what you want to/about your mother, but WHAT WILL YOU GET OUT OF IT? How long will that satisfaction last????
Sorry I am being blunt... I am trying to see waht would be best for you... and thinking it through. What do you think of all this blabbering?
Love, Beth

[Overcomer]

You are right, Beth.  What do I get out of it besides a moment of vindication?  So what if I take her down and then she sticks it to me by disinheriting me later on.  The only thing I want from her is to be heard.  It is a one-sided fight.  SHE thinks I am disrespectful.  I have been disrespected by her for years.  She thinks it is my goal to discredit her.  Don't have to - she's successful at that on her own.  She thinks I have betrayed her, well, she's betrayed me time and again.

I talked to my dad and he understands.  He's kind of caught in the middle.  She just wants everyone to cowtow to her every wish....

I'm giving it up.  I'm giving it up.  I'm giving it up.  It doesn't do me any good to fight............

[reallyME]

Kelly,

I just want to tell you that your feelings against your mother are very understandable and rational consequences of what you have been through.  I'm glad you are seeing a therapist who can give you back your ability to think objectively rather than through vengeance.

Honestly, with an N, yes it wounds them DEEPLY when we "get em back," but, although revenge might have been sweet for that moment, it is very short-lasting, and they go on to the next arrow in your heart or the next replacement person for you

[Overcomer]

If I continue to allow my anger to drive me than I really do look like the bad person.  She has always had that on her side.  When she is in a room alone with me, she clinches her teeth, throws accusations, and is very bitchy.  But get her in a room with a therapist?  She will act like the victim.  And seriously?  I know I am the real victim in the whole scenario.  I have had to deal with her narcissism my whole life.  I will really try to be strong and to speak in very neutral terms and tell the real story and see what the therapist says.  The guilt?  It was ingrained in me from a very young age.  To do anything outside of what my nmom sees fit makes me feel guilty.  So if I can get over the irrational guilt and try to do things motivated by my mental health, then I think I will be ok!!

[Hopalong]

Kelly,
Another reason it's SO great that you're going to counseling is that when it's the two of you, the old patterns are so powerful that your mother CANNOT hear you (it has nothing to do with what you say...it's emotional tapes). Likewise it is possible that there are things she is trying to say that aren't totally monstrous that you cannot hear.

I am soooooooooooooo glad you are going to counseling. Please hang in with it. You deserve the help, and you need it.

I think it is fantastic that you and your mother have agreed to go.

Hops

[Overcomer]

Well, just to clarify something.  I know you all are happy for me (us) but my mom will not hear or admit that she has a problem.  Her problem is that I don't like her...not that she is self-absorbed, or lacks empathy for me, etc.  I cannot in a million years think that she will figure out that she is the problem.  It would hurt her psyche to do that.  So I predict a lot of tears, etc.  However, maybe the counselor will say "You guys cannot work with each other!!"  And if that is accomplished - and we act on that advice, then I will be OK!!  Because really?  I can handle her on a personal level.........she has ceased the control that way.............

[reallyME]

Kelly,

even your mother's tears, if she is an N, will be short lasting.

~Laura

[Gaining Strength]

Kelly -
I relate to your discussion on several levels.  I am in my forties.  I got my mother, who is diagnosed as having N traits, to go to therapy this past year as a condition if she wanted to have a relationship with me or my little boy.  My reactions to her could have ben described by your very posts with some of the details changed.

As I was reading this dialog, I immediately thought of what Jac and others have replied to me about validation.  What I hear your screaming out for is validation that you are not crazy but that your mother's actions are outrageous and unbearable. Perhaps your cries for validation cross the line into the need to be right (which has some narcissistic aspects) but really I think you are hoping for and needing validation for the couselor.  I hope you get it.

Late this spring, before I had e-mail and could join this crowd, I read something about Narcissists that nailed my Nfather.  But I was shocked (and humiliated) to see that it also nailed some of my behavior.  And in a nano second I had to ask myself if I had to wear the mantle of Narcissist myself, but just as quickly I realized that it was no surprise that I might exhibit some behavior that is narcissistic in nature - that is all that I experienced growing up.  How could I know anything else? 

I hope for you that you get the validation you seek and that it sets you free.