Some background

[2bbetter]

I guess I (well We actually cos Tavia and I are both here. I bring things up with her before I post, and will show her this one and discuss any edits before I post ) are kinda strange ones in this forum that deserves some explanation, cos most people here seem to be working through stuff from Childhood N's, or after separating from spousal N's, or other long term situations. Apologies to anyone I missed )

We are an engaged couple living together for the last year. As T mentioned in an earlier post she'd never even heard of N'ism before, (well, we all have at sometime, just never understood it, or considered it) I didn't have N parents, although the 3rd child (I can see some of the 'lost child' stuff went on, but overall they did a pretty good job I reckon

T however had an N montser for a Dad (he's still around, barely alive, a shadow of his former self obviously, & quite insane now, but the family is still scared of him)

T was the perfect woman for me for a while when we met to the point that I left my business I owned, country I was in, many good friends (still can keep in touch though yay), & every possession I had; to come to her country and start a new life together. "Gaga over each other" ?, well obviously I was, I still don't see how she was when she was lying and stealing from me (us) at the time. [see T's first post]

 When the act was dropped (the day after I'd flown us to meet my parents with a surprise engagement ring they didn't know about) I went into a depressive shock, its the weirdest thing, I was completely numbed out & would follow directions like a robot somehow.

 It was a multiple whammy in that there was the statement made, the manner in which it was made, the timing of it, as well as I'd already given up everything to be with this person and gone through half my life savings by that stage.

 I thought I had been depressed a couple of times much earlier in life, I now know the difference between unhappy about something and depression at least.

 Months of abuse followed, I was incredulous and dazed. Part of the reason I didn't just get the hell out was that she was the only continuity I had strangely enough, as well as the fact that I knew inside myself that I could take it in order to help this person I loved.

 For a long time there I believed the person I met and fell in love with was real, and this monster was unreal & would somehow disappear. I think you all know the list of things you do, I did em all; be more loving, more patient etc etc.

 Part of it also was a desire to learn how I'd gotten into the situation - what did I miss - & why did I get so depressed instead of performing justifiable homicide ( JOKE !) type things. Anyway, she was going along fine doing things, so I must have the problem cos she's going along as if there's no problem, and was telling me I had the problem and she was the incredibly desirable successful single person that had so much fun etc etc that I had obviously spent too much time alone in the backward country I came from etc etc. "Everybody fucks around", "It helps if you're attractive" etc etc God it was hell.

 I did a LOT of internet researching, printing out fear of intimacy, abuse, fear of commitment type stuff; individually they didn't get much attention, but despite herself some info got through.

 Somewhere some reason started to come through and lies upon lies became unearthed, guiltily sneaking a look at her emails last year showed up one hell of a mess going back years. It was like some trophy store of guys being lied to & stuffed around in so many cruel ways. It didn't seem to matter whether the guys were nearby, far away, involved with her at the time or what, patches of carrying on what looked like loving relationships with some were interspersed with chatting up others. A big hit was also seeing that she'd maintained dating site profiles months into our engagement. Thank god for it all though, cos I, although stunned again, started to get a glimmer of understanding that I wasn't the one who was f'd up. I mean, I was thoroughly by then, but wasn't before my head got messed with.

 When revealed, she wanted to break up over it, "her Dad had always gone through her stuff, now I had invaded her privacy". I still wonder which came first, (parents check on their kids right). I mean, I look at how the mother and sister are as well as T, & if I was the guy in that house I'd be a paranoid lunatic also. I guess its one of those vicious cycle things but I guess it started with his autocracy and doting.

 Lots of arguing followed, as well as shrinks. A huge step came when I googled "female liar" – it returned a DrIrene page on the female N. This blew me away! It may as well have been about Tavia although a bit diluted. I sent the link to T. It almost blew her away! I remember her saying "OMG Am I that bad?" I think I replied "Ummm… bit worse actually" The wonderful statement she next said will ring in my ears forever: "I always thought something was wrong…"

 To cut a loooong story short, she has been so much better since then The DrLaura books opened her heart a bit I guess. Communication is still a biggie. She can write a lot better than she can talk about feelings. Theirs some sort of automatic cutoff switch that kicks in with speech. We went through a patch of anger at any normal conversation, she is starting to overcome the anger and talk now I figure its to do with the 'fight or flight' reflex, which is triggered by intimacy. She has a similar response to thinking about thinking deeply about herself, she "recoils at the hideousness inside"

 We've been through the worst for sure, individual and collective awareness is being achieved, more awareness's to come no doubt. Lots of stuff to unlearn & learn

 Thanks to anyone for listening, its nice to be heard

[penelope]

hi 2b,

Thank you for sharing.  Welcome.

Have you considered therapy as a gift to yourself?  I read your description and it reminded me a lot of myself.  Therapy has helped me tremendously with my codependency, wanting to "fix" others, insatiable desire/need to be liked by others, when what really matters is that I like myself.

hugs,
p bean

[2bbetter]

Hi P

Yup, been lots of therapy last year, and lots more going on here, with books, friends etc.

The 'desire to fix others' has not been particularly strong in my life actually, although it did show up once with a previous partner sortof, in that I was trying to fix a communication blockage with an ex g/f of 4 years. I felt at the time I wasn't trying to 'fix' her problems, but break an argument cycle we were into. Eventually it came down to she just liked to argue & I didn't & we parted.

I looked at codependency A LOT last year. I see elements of it in both T & me. We can see her Nism as a dydsunctional adaptation to heving been codependent in early abusive relationship(s), And I certainly went CoD in ours last year.

I wrote the starter last night and the 3rd child line caused a different thought with me during reviewing it. I can see that my desire for intimacy comes from a perceived lack of it as a kid. I do connect with people who 'share' with me, & have some very good friends who initially do the normal 'guarded' thing when we first meet and over time reveal more of ourselves as we go along. Nearly all of my relationships have followed the same natural progression. Finding a good match for yourself is hard enough when everybody is honest with each other, it was really sad to learn that someone had pretended all the 'good match' stuff so perfectly, could fake such levels of independance, honesty, openness, etc etc to get themselves out of the latest financial hole they'd put themselves in. It had become a highly developed and practised skill. I didn't enter the relationship with any desire to fix anything with her or me. Two people who got along really well, with similar interests and histories met, were attracted to each other, got along great and wanted the same things. Yup, this is hard enough to find when everyones cards are on the table, impossible if they are not.

Anyway, short answer I was finding out how to fix myself at the time. I'd gone from someone who was happy with and genuinely liked myself to a mess. I had to dig deep, explore and challengs a LOT in my values, perceptions, expectations etc.

Desire to be liked by others ? Not overly so in my case, I owned 4 businesses concurrently at one stage a few years ago (it was too much & reduced) & I admit being liked by others was not even on my list. Interestingly, I've often wondered over the years in different countries about a funny thing... People 'like' me a lot. People who I cant even remember having met say they are my 'friend', I do keep some distance with people before I call them an aquaintance, and there's gotta be some well shared experiences before anyone gets to friend status with me

[Gaining Strength]

2bbetter

It really helps to put it out on this board don't you think.  In you 2nd post you seem to be getting at some of that stuff about how you got into this place.  That is really so important.  It is hard to keep the focus on our responses to others in our life.  It is hard but that is where the power is.  We have power to change OUR lives and are powerless to change someone else. 

If you've seen me around this board, you know I'm going to encourage you to keep writing, keep posting.  Get it out on this board.  It helps.  Don't know how but it helps.

Gaining Strength

[Certain Hope]

Dear 2b and Tavia, hugs to you both. Just wanted to say that I admire your courage in speaking up here and I hope that it helps.

Wishing you both the best,
Hope

[tavia]

Dear all,

Thank you for your support.. we are working out a whole mess of stuff.. it's difficult and there are so many ups but even more downs, but at least something is being done..
Thanks again.

Tavia

[Plucky]

Hi 2bbetter,
I would wonder what in your past or personality or background, made you susceptible to being fooled so thoroughly?  And now, when you look back, are there things you see that were red flags that you did not recognise?
Plucky

[2bbetter]

Thanks for a goos question Plucky & HI !

Its interesting isn't it, our first reaction is to question ourselves when we realise 'where' we are.

it can be from a sudden shock (as in my situation) or probably a dim fuzzy awakening after an insideous slow building thing (which is probably more common & harder to deal with)

First you wonder if it is real or not (question reality)
Then questions follow as to why, one looks at the abuser's past and your own, with more questions.
Fortunately we can answer our own questions as hoenstly as possible & seek more input from those we have known for a long time, & trust & have been there for us, & put it all together, filling in some of our own blanks.
Unfortunately the abuser has not such recourse. There's no-one they have been open with in the past to trust and draw on their input. They are alone with their mess.

I love the quote that keeps popping up throughout my research & learning: "If you do what you've always done, you'll get the same result", "Insanity is expecting different results from continually doing the same thing"

I think this is another difference between "normal people" and the personality disordered. We do seek different results and so seek to modify our thoughts or behaviours. N's especially, I think, do NOT expect different results. They do expect to be rejected & abandoned, whatever they do, so they act accordingly (to them), since they have rejected themSELVES long ago.

Confusion is exacerbated by their denial & further lies. They ARE conscious lies, it is not insanity, just looks like it.

At any stage you can 'cut your losses'. This is where I think my dealing with past relationships effects pop up. With a couple of notable exceptions, I would just go out with someone untill I decided I had enough information about them, feelings grew or not, circumstances included etc. Generally 3 date, 3 week & 3 month rules of thumb applied.

I keep getting sidetracked ! sorreeee hehe

After a LOT of thinking, asking, researching & learning the real answer to your suggested question surfaced a while back. The step of clandestinely interviewing an ex was even taken (and revealed to T within an appropriate time)

I, like others before me, was thoroughly fooled by an absolute expert fooler. Prepared and moulded as a kid, then spent years and many interractions with people to hone, develop and perfect the skills, into a way of life, the way master at anything does unconsciously. Pity the master sculptor who has to unlearn how to sculpt. He doesn't look at how to learn how to paint instead, he's stuck in sculpting.

I do think the brain doesn't work well avoiding negatives (remember the 'don't think of elephants question?' - you have to think of ostriches instead) The pD'd are too well practised with thinking in negatives. That's why the rest of us keep telling ourselves (and each other) to keep thinking positives when we are down.

Great opportunity to learn a lot about myself though, very validating after all.

It is interesting though, that no matter how well I have always liked myself, always been pretty sure of myself, pleased with how I handle things & people, racked up quite a few achievements over the years etc; the right blow delivered at the right time can still floor you for a while.

Whilst rolling around down there it seems you'll never get up, when you normally bounce back pretty well, its very frustrating when you dont. The hard thing is to remember to persevere at getting by, stay down for a while rather than get worse by criticising yourself for not bouncling back.

When I let go of criticising myself, & decided to have a good wallow for as long as it took last year, I found myself getting through it rather than being stuck in it

[Brigid]

2bbetter,
I was totally and completely fooled for 25 years.  The n personality is a consummate liar, and to be honest, I don't know that they can ever be anything but.  My ex lied about everything and I'm sure I'll never know a tenth of the lies he told me over the years, but it really doesn't matter anymore.  I have had to warn the kids (18 and 21 years old), that they cannot always believe what he tells them so that they will not be unpleasantly surprised at some point down the road. 

I hope you continue to keep your eyes wide open as you move forward.

Brigid

[Hopalong]

Hi 2B and Tavia,

I'm sorry I haven't contributed but I honestly don't know how to address a couple's issues when they're both posting here and one has identified the other as having a PD and the other hasn't had much to say.

I think it's over my head but I want to sincerely wish you both well, and I do hope others here are able to give you whatever guidance you are looking for.

Best to you,
Hopalong

[Gaining Strength]

2bbetter

I found the following on the internet and thought you might find it of interest.  It is a lengthy letter that one person wrote to another after their 2 year relationship ended.  I have included the web site  and a very brief segment to give you a feel for the contents.  I was shocked to see that some of the appalling behavior actually fits patterns of behavior that I once exhibited.  Though the person described is thought to be a Borderline Personality Disorder and I am not, had I come across this description when I was exhibiting this behavior I could not have owned it because of the BPD association.  However, you said earlier that when Tavia recognized some of her behavior she was able to own her part.

Look at this site and see if it is of value.  My thoughts and concerns are with you both.  - Gaining Strength

www.mytriptoozandback.com

B. The Difficulties Begin
In January and February 1995, I believe we genuinely fell in love with each other. Everything was so exciting and new and passionate. However, along with these positive and sparkling feelings, a horrible underside emerged. This was when your bewildering behavior toward me began. What I had to begin dealing with at this time, on a frequent basis, were your radical and unexpected mood swings, temper tantrums, criticizing, yelling, "shutting down" and pushing me away. I felt totally confused, as sometimes we seemed to get along so well, and other times I felt besieged, like I was caught in a terrible hailstorm with nowhere to run.

Here are some examples from that long period from January to November 1995, in which I began to have the uneasy feeling that something was wrong, yet I could not identify precisely what it was.

[2bbetter]

Hi

Thanks B, H, & GS Nice to hear from you & hope you are dealing well with whatever is on your plates right now

B: Eyes open as much as possible, some days our 'stained glass window' we look through is clearer than others. Seems we all have different STG's that we look at the world, others and ourselves with, and although we accept that we will never have a perfectly clean, unstained and untinted window to look through (why would we anyway... we'd all be the same ! UGH ) We can at least try not to get too many gobs of shit on it in the first place, clean it off as soon and as well as we can when we do, & have a good scrub at it a LOT more frequently than we used to

H: Please don't apologise or even feel sorry for not having much to say on this one ! I can't imagine anyone not in, or not having been in our situation being able to say much that really fits. & anyone in our position would be waaaayy to busy sorting out their own shituation to say much also hehe. It's   really nice though just to have someone to 'talk' to about stuff, & thanks for being there & being real.

GS: Looks like an interesting read, thanks for the link I'm already fascinated by the opening paragraph where someone who had obviously lied earlier about "sleeping with alison..." then launches into a list of grievances Hmmmm.

Would love to ramble on some more now, but I gotta go cook dinner T's working hard & doing great. We are having some interesting 'external hurdles' to work on at the moment, & its cool the way we can handle them together despite everything !

Take care, love to you all, & dont forget to..... LIVE