Author Topic: More on shame  (Read 6128 times)

Gaining Strength

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More on shame
« on: September 21, 2006, 11:45:35 PM »
snippets from a 1992 Atlantic Monthly article

Shame forces us in ways that are outside our control to behave destructively to ourselves and to others. – Leon Wumaer (The Mask of Shame).  If you run from shame you may successfully avoid the humiliation you fear, but you constantly sense this anxiety within yourself and you know you cannot escape it – it follows you like a shadow.

Because of the pressures in our society to be independent, and the punitive ways this concern can reach a child, people of either sex may grow up with a wounding sense of shame over being needy.  They experience their neediness ass a grotesque infantile deformity for which they will be rejected, abandoned, or contemptuously dismissed by others.

The pathogenic shame belief seems to block the creative avenue.  It is crippling.

Nothing, apparently, defends against the internal ravages of shame more than the security gained from parental love, especially the sort of sensitive love that sees and appreciates the child for what he or she is and is respectful of the child’s feelings, differences, and peculiarities.  Nothing seems to make shame cut more deeply than the lack of that love.

A woman who secretly despises herself for being selfish may feel that she should not take, should not ask, should not calculate in her own behalf, and she may compensate for what she sees as her shameful self-seeking with rigid displays of generosity.

If guilt is about behavior that has harmed others, shame is about not being good enough.  To be ashamed is to expect rejection, not so much because of what one has done as because of what one is.

For guilt one can find a solution.  One needs to make amends. “What does shame require?” That you be a better person, and not be ugly, and not be stupid, and not have failed?  The only thing that suits is at this moment is for you to be nonexistent.  That’s what people frequently say.  I could crawl through a hole, I could sink through the floor, I could die. It is so acutely painful.

Shame has a contagious quality, because it makes our own shame demons restive.  People are ashamed of being ashamed, so we don’t talk about it.

The child’s sense of being someone who counts comes in large part from the parents’ capacity to empathically tune into that child.  Without that consistent reassurance the child begins to doubt the value of her efforts to engage, of the love she is trying to give, of her being.

The legacy of a person experience of being wrong as a child, can be to feel poisonously deformed and an unlovable thing. That legacy cannot be overcome so long as the shame remains unconscious and unspoken.  Once the shame is spoken to someone who is able to listen and absorb without becoming anxious, something changes.  Then a person can view herself from a freer, less tyrannical perspective, able, perhaps for the first time, to feel some sympathy for herself and her predicament.  She is able to see that her cruel lack of sympathy for herself is in part what fuels her rages and her desperate need o blame.  Gradually she may find that she is able to look at a deeper issue of shame, closer to her core – of feeling as a little girl, unwanted, a piece of excess baggage who constantly had to prove her worth. 

Putting shame into words with a trusted companion enables one to step outside it – it no longer seems to permeate one’s entire being -- and allows some self-forgiveness to emerge.  But such relationships are not always easy to establish, even in marriage.  Many people have difficulty listening to pain without becoming anxious.  If a friend confides something shameful he is asking us not to look away; what’s worse, he is provoking us to tune into painful aspects of our own life where shame lays waiting.  We may try to escape from the moment by mouthing meaningless encouragements.

The fear of being known in only one aspect, the hesitation to be seen when we’re not ready, the worry about being known by some flawed or undeveloped part instead of being understood as a whole – none of these shame-motivated concerns are shameful.. They are a natural aspect of our need for privacy and for protection from the scrutinizing, judging, and humiliating power of the social world.  It’s something like a photograph.  If you too quickly expose it all and let it all hang out, you destroy it.

2bbetter

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WOW !
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2006, 01:19:38 AM »
THANKS GS !

We just read this together & it SO seems to hit nails on heads with whats at least one of the things going on beneath with T.

Its been as if something is 'blocking' expression of feelings. Particularly remorse, guilt & shame. Actually kinda like so much shame is layered or attached or somehow affecting expression of remorse, or apologizing. It's like don't even get to feel sorry for something, let alone express it, because so much shame is felt instead of remorse.

Built in, or long term shame possibly even facilitates shameful acts because they don't feel much different doing or not doing something shameful, so why not do it?... dunno about that one, just a thought.

Anyway... Anybody got any good links or leads on expressing anger, guilt, shame, feelings ? Its spooky timing that you posted, cos I was gonna post asking for help on expressing feelings, in terms of having a conversation where feelings are expressed for the sake of expressing feelings, rather than for some verbal unverbalised 'goal'

& Anybody got any good links or leads on getting over relationship type post traumatic stress syndrome ? I realised this morning that thats what I've been going through, it's like depression but different, or is it just depression with a known cause I wonder.

Thank YOU so much   :D

Gaining Strength

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Re: More on shame
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2006, 01:30:47 AM »
Quote
Built in, or long term shame possibly even facilitates shameful acts because they don't feel much different doing or not doing something shameful, so why not do it?... dunno about that one, just a thought.

Absolutely - shame begets shame.  I do shameful things because I am shamed.

post traumatic stress syndrome PTSD(disorder) is definitely a reaction to abusive relationships.  I don't have any great sites off hand but jacmac is great with such resources.  Also check out the resource panels and see if you find a relevant link.  There is definitely material out there. 

Tavia - nothing is more difficult than dealing with the shame.  It is so painful but it is better than living with it.  I am currently going through that and I think of it as a birthing process - and getting through that birth canal is no picnic but lucky you you have 2bbetter in it with you.  I encourage you to talk and write about shaming experiences or unkindnesses as much as possible - once you get started it sort of explodes out, almost like an obsession.  BUT be careful to whom you share because as it written above many people are not able to listen to shame.  I'm glad this interested you two.  This shame thing is my big issue for now.

Your Friend - Gaining Strength

pennyplant

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Re: More on shame
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2006, 12:02:20 PM »
GS, thanks for posting this article.
It describes how I have felt for most of my life and why.
It really sums it up for me.

This place is like that caring person who can listen and not turn away.
Must be that is why I have made so much progress in such a short time.

PP
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

Gaining Strength

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Re: More on shame
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2006, 07:30:16 PM »
Quote
It describes how I have felt for most of my life and why.
It really sums it up for me.

This place is like that caring person who can listen and not turn away.

I am so helped that you have this same deformity.  It feels like a deformity to me. 

Quote
Must be that is why I have made so much progress in such a short time.
I am so glad to hear this.  It gives me such hope.  Thank you - Gaining Strength

Hopalong

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Re: More on shame
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2006, 01:46:39 AM »
GS my dear.

BOLLOCKS.

You are not deformed.

You are learning about the interplay between your physical self, and the inner self. When they are happier with each other, you will befriend your environment. It won't be your enemy any more. It won't be a scary empty space. It'll be a friend you want to tend because you can project love and hopefulness from inside yourself into your space.

When I break out a bit, I have this exact feeling. I'm sending you some...

hugs,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

pennyplant

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Re: More on shame
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2006, 11:44:16 PM »
Hey, GS, I think I know what you mean about feeling deformed.  I have always felt so different from others.  My husband has the same feeling to contend with.  I think it is harder for him for some reason.

It seems to me that eventually we will each come to feel normal.  Not deformed anymore.  I'm hoping my husband will find a way soon to feel normal.  I know that he wants to feel better about himself.  He just needs to find his path.

Pennyplant
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

Gaining Strength

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Re: More on shame
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2006, 01:51:02 AM »
BOLLOCKS.  Who can argue with that word Hops.  I like it so much that I have to say it again. BOLLOCKS.BOLLOCKS.BOLLOCKS.BOLLOCKS.

Yep.  I love that word.  OK so I'm not really deformed but that S*** I took on as a child did deform my personality and my thinking and my view of the world, but I do believe with pennyplant that It seems to me that eventually we will each come to feel normal. And that is so encouraging.

It'll be a friend you want to tend because you can project love and hopefulness from inside yourself into your space.  I believe you Hops.  I got a small taste of this today.  It didn't last long but it didn't have to.  I got a taste and I will nurture it and grow it.  I'm going to give it some Hug food.  Thanks for sending some.

your friend - GS - hey I love the image of popcorn stuck on your toenails.  I want to come to that slumber party.

Hopalong

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Re: More on shame
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2006, 08:18:12 AM »
You're just arriving!
Got oodles of toenail polish all lined up for you, and Bean (was it you, PB?) has made fresh popcorn.
Bring your sleeping bag and toothbrush and  your favorite CDs.

WAT's new, puddytat, woe-woe-woe...

In the a.m. (meaning a half hour from now :lol:) I gotta get a move on.
We're having peace Sunday and I'm the worship helper person.

Going to read some things from Peace Pilgrim: I like her.
www.peacepilgrim.com

happy Sunday,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Stormchild

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Re: More on shame
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2006, 10:19:51 AM »
Hops, have you considered becoming a Unitarian minister? It seems like a perfect fit, and honestly, this seems like the perfect time to consider it....  :shock: :shock: :shock:

8) ,

Storm
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Stormchild

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Re: More on shame
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2006, 10:40:31 AM »
and, umm, that thug you work for would have no say at all in the recommendations you would need for this.
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

http://strangemercy.blogspot.com

http://potemkinsoffice.blogspot.com

Hopalong

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Re: More on shame
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2006, 02:12:58 PM »
Stormy, thank you.
Oddly enough, yet another person suggested that to me this morning.

I think I'd love it.
I could check out what it takes to be a Community Minister. They have a
track that allows this. Because I ain't ready to pick myself up and just move
wherever there's a church. That's the biggest drawback to me.

Plus, I'm pretty wobbly to be anybody's minister. I'm helpful on my good days,
but when I'm shaking in my bed with irrational fears, not so much.

I am very touched that you said it though.

I am a good reader. My stuff or anybody's. Quite a few people have asked
me about it and I haven't known why. Except it came to me driving home...
it's from all those decades writing poetry, and giving readings. It's that I read
aloud or sermonize at a slower pace, and I speak as though every word has meaning.
I also look at the audience or congregation as though they're my friends.

One line I wrote in my Dad's eulogy was that (since he'd grown up the adored only
child of genteel parents): "Did this make him spoiled or self-absorbed? Hardlly. He simply
assumed that everyone was just as welcome in the world as he was, and altogether
worthy of his attention."

I'm selfish and lazy and all sorts of stuff like that, but when I'm speaking my best
self shows. That's how poetry readings and church stuff came together.

Thanks again, Storm. You musta been there.

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Certain Hope

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Re: More on shame
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2006, 05:16:42 PM »
GS and Pp,

  The notion of feeling deformed is one that I seem to have buried deep, but I am recognizing it through you both.

I believe this to be true:   Nothing, apparently, defends against the internal ravages of shame more than the security gained from parental love, especially the sort of sensitive love that sees and appreciates the child for what he or she is and is respectful of the child’s feelings, differences, and peculiarities.  Nothing seems to make shame cut more deeply than the lack of that love.

Personally, I'd say that I received love and appreciation from my mother to the extent that I was willing to allow her to "form" me. It's as though she saw me as a blank slate, ready to be molded and shaped according to her preferences and desires. I do not think that I was ever recognized as a unique, valuable, worthy individual... just a lump of clay.

The pathogenic shame belief seems to block the creative avenue.  It is crippling.

Indeed.

I know that there is within me an appreciation of poetry, music, art... of all things lovely. The compulsive, perfectionistic drive which my mother activated within me seems to have virtually quenched all that, but I am trying to revive it.

Shame has a contagious quality, because it makes our own shame demons restive.  People are ashamed of being ashamed, so we don’t talk about it.

I wasn't even able to recognize the shame for what it is, because it was never blatantly attached to me... only implied and input by withholding of ... acknowledgment.

The child’s sense of being someone who counts comes in large part from the parents’ capacity to empathically tune into that child.  Without that consistent reassurance the child begins to doubt the value of her efforts to engage, of the love she is trying to give, of her being.

Never. Not ever that I recall, did my mother "tune in" or "engage" me in anything but her attempts to control me....  yet it came naturally to me to feel this toward my own children... I wonder why. They have always amazed me, inspired me, just by being who they are, unique and individual. I certainly did not learn this by example.

That legacy cannot be overcome so long as the shame remains unconscious and unspoken.  Once the shame is spoken to someone who is able to listen and absorb without becoming anxious, something changes

GS, what makes a person able to listen and absorb from us without growing anxious? Is it because they don't feel responsible... like our parents would if we ever tried to explain this to them? Are they able to remain un-defensive simply because they've been loved and recognized/acknowledged properly in their own formative years?

She is able to see that her cruel lack of sympathy for herself is in part what fuels her rages and her desperate need to blame

In other words, she can stop seeing herself as a victim?


If a friend confides something shameful he is asking us not to look away; what’s worse, he is provoking us to tune into painful aspects of our own life where shame lays waiting.

And if we are determined to keep that painful shame buried in our own depths, we won't be able to hear from another ... or, as the article says, offer anything but cliche encouragements. I think this is a big part of the reason my borderline friend has had such an impact on me.
She couldn't seem to be satisfied unless she'd wrapped me up in her own shame, which thereby brought her some relief. I recognized the same dynamic at play in that relationship as I used to face with my aunt, who was never so happy as when she'd laid me low, then she could be the one offering the vain platitudes. I think I'm beginning to see and understand, and it's only because I see you, GS, and Pennyplant, and others who are actively working through this, determined not to remain stuck and also not to simply dump the mess off onto someone else. It's a wonderful thing to recognize that shame doesn't have to be transferred elsewhere ... it can simply be overcome and allowed to dissipate.
Thank you.

Hope





Certain Hope

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Re: More on shame
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2006, 05:19:18 PM »
Hi 2b,

  You asked,  Anyway... Anybody got any good links or leads on expressing anger, guilt, shame, feelings ? Its spooky timing that you posted, cos I was gonna post asking for help on expressing feelings, in terms of having a conversation where feelings are expressed for the sake of expressing feelings, rather than for some verbal unverbalised 'goal'

Have you and Tavia checked this site?

http://www.angriesout.com/

A brief description:   

Got mads? Get ‘em out! Constructive anger management techniques for children, parents, couples, adults and teachers.
Award winning site


Best wishes!

Hope

Gaining Strength

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Re: More on shame
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2006, 06:00:57 PM »
Wow Hope - thank you for this post.  You could put my name at the top of your post and it would be my story as well.

Quote
Shame has a contagious quality, because it makes our own shame demons restive.  People are ashamed of being ashamed, so we don’t talk about it.

I wasn't even able to recognize the shame for what it is, because it was never blatantly attached to me... only implied and input by withholding of ... acknowledgment.
That is the trap about shame.  For years I read "Healing the Shame that Binds You" by Bradshaw and made marginal notes.  Each time I read it I saw something different.  So this past May or June when I was trying desparately to identify that "thing" that had me literally parallyzed I identified through prayer and meditation that it was shame.  And this time I realized that it was huge, bigger than I could even grasp.  I was devastated because I had been working on "shame" issues for a long time. But I had not even begun to grapple with the unspoken shame and the shaming that my FOO would deny even today.

Quote
The child’s sense of being someone who counts comes in large part from the parents’ capacity to empathically tune into that child.  Without that consistent reassurance the child begins to doubt the value of her efforts to engage, of the love she is trying to give, of her being.

Never. Not ever that I recall, did my mother "tune in" or "engage" me in anything but her attempts to control me....  yet it came naturally to me to feel this toward my own children... I wonder why. They have always amazed me, inspired me, just by being who they are, unique and individual. I certainly did not learn this by example.
My mother never taught me anything, has never done anything with me - not plan a party or a meeting, not wash dishes or shop, not teach me to put on makeup or shave my legs, nothing.  Yet I love doing things with my child, I love teadhing him and playing with him.  I think that be being a part of his life, I am healing a hole in mine.  My mother likes to do things with him, I also find that healing - she is loving my child.  That's a vast improvement over how she treated my first husband.  I am truly thankful that she loves my child.

Quote
That legacy cannot be overcome so long as the shame remains unconscious and unspoken.  Once the shame is spoken to someone who is able to listen and absorb without becoming anxious, something changes

GS, what makes a person able to listen and absorb from us without growing anxious? Is it because they don't feel responsible... like our parents would if we ever tried to explain this to them? Are they able to remain un-defensive simply because they've been loved and recognized/acknowledged properly in their own formative years?
  This is a great question Hope.  The great flaw with Bradshaw's book to me is that he gave this sharing as the only way to "heal" the effects of shame.  The problem that left for me was that there was absolutely noone with whom I could share.  Not that I hadn't tried but I always ran up against people's inability to listen and sometimes the cost to me was horrendous.  I find this place is one of the only places that I have been able to talk about this shame issue and some of the specific shaming experiences of my life.  It is harder for me to share these with my T b/c 50 minutes is not time enough to get into the issue, get it out on the table, expose myself, get some kind of resolution and then feel "covered up" enough to leave without falling into deep shame depression.

Are they able to remain un-defensive simply because they've been loved and recognized/acknowledged properly in their own formative years? I think these people are few and far between, that they are born empathetic or that they develop empathy by painful life experiences.  I need to unearth and expose part of my shame in huge amounts and I really need some validation when I do.  I cannot imagine a better means to do this than this online forum.  Here I can write and write without worrying about taking up all the time and overstepping some boundary.  Someone always writes something that gives me a sense of release.  I guess most valuable for me is my understanding about how this shame has so hampered my entire life, that all the forces that I have fought to change my entire life are related to this shaming.  So I have great hope and incentive that in getting out all of this shame I will at last be free and at last can finally use the potential that I have always been told I have but have not lived upto.  That's alot of incentive. 

If you don't want to put stuff out on the internet then find someone here who will listen.  I will listen by PM and there are others here as well.  I confess that I thought that I would be free from the parallysis a few weeks ago.  I do think I am close but I will just keep going. 

When I read this: I think I'm beginning to see and understand, and it's only because I see you, GS, and Pennyplant, and others who are actively working through this, determined not to remain stuck and also not to simply dump the mess off onto someone else. It's a wonderful thing to recognize that shame doesn't have to be transferred elsewhere ... it can simply be overcome and allowed to dissipate. I get another level of healing.  That my writing about shame can help someone besides myself is incredible.  That is HOPE, that is CERTAIN HOPE.

Quote
If a friend confides something shameful he is asking us not to look away; what’s worse, he is provoking us to tune into painful aspects of our own life where shame lays waiting.

And if we are determined to keep that painful shame buried in our own depths, we won't be able to hear from another ... or, as the article says, offer anything but cliche encouragements. I think this is a big part of the reason my borderline friend has had such an impact on me.
She couldn't seem to be satisfied unless she'd wrapped me up in her own shame, which thereby brought her some relief. I recognized the same dynamic at play in that relationship as I used to face with my aunt, who was never so happy as when she'd laid me low, then she could be the one offering the vain platitudes.
I think you  have that 100% correct.  It is helpful to have a name for what is going on don't you?

Thanks Certain Hope - what a gift.  I will NOT give up letting go of this shame.  Acting out of shame has led me where I am now - friendless, jobless, paralyzed.  That is not what I want and it can't be what God wants for me and it is definitely not what my child deserves.  I will not give up.  Shame will not rule my life much longer, nor yours. - your faithful friend - Gaining Strength