Author Topic: The Stranglehold of Narcissism  (Read 11483 times)

moonlight52

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Re: The Stranglehold of Narcissism
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2006, 12:37:17 PM »
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((HOPE)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))


(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((STORM)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))


((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((EVERYONE))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

HAPPY DANCE WITH STORM

SUPER ARTICLE   :D :D :D   ps 2nd meeting with dad and no meltdown

moon
« Last Edit: September 26, 2006, 05:30:38 PM by moonlight52 »

Certain Hope

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Re: The Stranglehold of Narcissism
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2006, 04:53:22 PM »
Hi Jac,

  Trying to ensure that I'm hearing you correctly here.

You said,   My point of view is when it comes to relationships it's all about two things, and the first is directly connected to the last.

TRUST and INTENTION.

IMO in order to determine the presence of the latter (whether someone is engaging in positive feedback/delivery or negative feedback/delivery (not an N, whose behavior is consistantly obvious) one has to have a measure of the former, (solid belief that the  intention of the person is positive) .


So, when a person is giving you feedback, you gauge his intentions based on the level of trust you have that his intentions are positive?

In addition, I'm hearing you say that your belief that the person's intentions are positive must be quite sure... "solid"... and I'm wondering, how do you determine this? In other words, what are your inital criteria for establishing that a person is trustworthy?

Quote:  As humans, even at our best we might not speak clearly, in a properly functionally communicative way or with enough clarity - now I won't even add in if we're upset.

I agree, Jac. I would add that not only may we not speak clearly and appropriately, we may lose our ability to hear and receive clearly and appropriately.

Quote:  If Person A can point out flaw in the delivery or receipt of feedback to Person B, and there is a foundation of trust, then Person B can receive it, even if it isn't delivered picture perfectly because of the trust in that person's intention.  Even if it is not readilly discernable, the dialogue can continue until both parties feel heard and understood -  feel better.

I am wondering how you determine that this goal of feeling "heard and understood" has been met?

I'm asking this specifically in the case where both parties have been heard by the other and yet the disagreement continues.
I can see a problem here if Person A's idea of having been "heard and understood" is that she's been able to convince Person B that A's view is correct. If  B says, "Well, I still disagree, but that's ok" and  A refuses to accept that, it seems that an impasse has been reached.


Re:  Even if it is not readilly discernable, the dialogue can continue until both parties feel heard and understood -  feel better.

Even if what is not readily discernable?

Re:   I haven't had much experience with communication like this in regards to conflict.  It has been very far and few between but when it happens between friends - loved ones, even co-workers,  it's: M A G I C  and when it doesn't happen it's: T R A G I C 

Would you please define "Magic"  and  "Tragic" in other terms?

Thanks.

Hope






Certain Hope

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Re: The Stranglehold of Narcissism
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2006, 11:56:31 PM »
Hi, Jac,
 
  I really wanted to try to understand what you're saying, so I've reviewed these posts with my husband. Thought it would help to get his view, since our marriage is the only benchmark I have for a "normal", healthy adult relationship. Plus, I highly value the way he sees beneath the surface of matters and then will tell me the truth, regardless of whether it's what I might want to hear. It's exactly that sort of insight and accountability that seemed needed here, lest I get off track. It's quite easy for me to fall into old habits and get deluged by emotional responses, losing sight of the reality of a situation. [ As a side note, this marriage is the first time I've experienced true mutuality...  a sincere desire to know and to be known, in all honesty. Now that I've seen what a real marriage can be like, I recognize that my other (non-N) adult relationships have been quite shallow, seemingly based on a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" mentality of keeping up appearances, keeping the peace, not rocking the boat, and basically staying out of each other's way so we could each get what we want without the work of growing a real relationship.]
 
 
   Anyway, going over this with him helped me to see more clearly that you and I have very different views about both intimacy and conflict. It's very liberating to acknowledge that I can respect your right to maintain your own view without adopting that view for myself. Correspondingly, you can choose to respect my right to maintain my view without adopting it as your own... or not. It's wonderful to have that free choice.
  One of the things I most appreciate about my relationship with my husband is that he and I can disagree without either one of us feeling mortally wounded or despairing. We don't see everything eye to eye and we don't expect to. I'm just thankful that for the first time in my life, I don't feel overpowering fear when I express disagreement with him. Neither of us requires the other to be 100 percent in tune at all times and to me, that is the basis of genuine respect and true intimacy.   
    When there is conflict, which there is bound to be in any relationship, sometimes he and I resolve the matter through compromise.  Sometimes we pick an entirely different option which was never the first choice of either of us, and that works out even better. Sometimes we find that there is no solution other than ... we must agree to disagree, and let the matter rest. But however it works out, we're both satisfied, because neither one of us has hung his hat on the outcome. Our identities and value are not wrapped up in whether or not the other one sees things our way or even understands our feelings. I think that's healthy and right & now that I've experienced it, I know that this is the sort of relationship I want. 
  At this point, I'm lost in all the references in your post to Party A and Party B, but when I say that it's "ok to disagree", it's not because I think I've  "figured the other person out". It is, in fact, because I don't expect a relationship to be free of disagreements and often problems are only aggravated by continuing to talk about them.
 
   When I say that I have nothing further to contribute to a conversation, this is not
"designed to silence the other person", but simply a statement of my own mental-emotional condition at that time, which is = I have run out of thoughts/ideas/words which might be of any benefit toward resolution.  I think it's not only okay to call a halt to discussion when one person deems it necessary, but that it's wise to do so.
I do not want to be in a relationship where one person insists that the dialogue continue beyond a point where I have requested a halt. I have been in such relationships and found them oppressive and harmful, because they don't allow me time to gather my thoughts and emotions, but instead force me to take another ride on a rollercoaster which has already made me dizzy.
 
  Personally, I must take a realistic view of relationships in my own life, which to me means not viewing them in terms of miraculous or tragic, but simply pairings of two flawed individuals who both have sensitive areas which will disrupt harmony at times. I used to have what I'd describe as a fairy tale/operatic view of life... everything all good/all bad and lots of magical thinking, until I discovered the many gray areas involved, particularly where gauging another human being's motivation is concerned. That is something I have had to face up to and admit that I am in no position to do. I'm not saying that you do this, only sharing that I have made a point to beware of such thinking. So now, I am committed to continuing to practice NOT judging someone's motivation until it becomes second nature, because I've seen how much damage and misunderstanding that creates. I still have a long way to go with this, because old habits die hard, but thankfully I have an accountability partner who reminds me when I slip.
 
My view is that part of my share of the responsibility in these reality-based relationships includes the establishment of my own boundaries. I do not believe that intimacy in relationship includes a responsibility on my part to make the other person "feel better". I don't believe that true intimacy is even possible under those terms because it places too much burden on another and denies individual responsibility. I don't want any part of a relationship that's enmeshed in such a way. Accountability is the other huge factor for me. When I'm off base, my husband tells me so and as much as I might not want to hear it, I trust that God is using him to set me straight. He allows me to do the same and there is no tragedy in it. In fact, we both survive and intimacy actually is increased, rather than destroyed. I don't tell my husband or anybody else that they should try to make me feel better in order to prove that they care for me, because I know that nobody but God working in my own heart and spirit can make that happen. I do hope that you'll be able to feel better in every way, Jac, even though you and I don't share the same perspective, and of course I'll continue to keep you in prayer.
 
Hope

Hopalong

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Re: The Stranglehold of Narcissism
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2006, 01:14:20 AM »
[unhelpful post deleted...Hops]
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Portia

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Re: The Stranglehold of Narcissism
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2006, 09:23:57 AM »
Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Okay.
Not my conversation. Does that mean i can't ask questions? I guess not.

What's happening please? I'm confused.

Jac, did you start your new conflict thread becasue of what happened here on this thread? I posted to your new thread. But is it to do with this here?

And I was really confused about your post above because i couldn't see what you were talking about when you quoted:

Quote
Quote from: Certain Hope on September 26, 2006, 01:33:17 PM
  lol... I dunno... words/expressions can certainly resonate with people differently, depending on their individual perspective.
You're absolutely right about trusting someone's good intentions making all the difference, I think.

then I realised that this quote comes from a conversation on the other board which I'm taking part in with Hope and i think she's directly addressing me in that quote, from something I said to her. It's the thread: The Emotional Christian (not just for Christians, tho)  on the what helps board.

So I want to ask, why are you quoting that here - do you think Hope is making comments about you in other threads? Or did the quote just seem relevant to you in light of your conversation here? or another reason i can't imagine?

I'm asking these questions because one way to not resolve any conflict is to leave the room! And Jac, I see you leaving this room. That's how i see threads, as rooms, i've said it before.

Maybe you don't want to be on this thread any more; fine. But then that makes me wonder how you're going to react to replies on your new thread, and then I get a headache. Life's too short Jac!

Anyway, there you go. Just nosing around this door and ready to take my nose elsewhere if it aint welcome.

Oh damn :x, and playing the role of go-between again. It's a bad habit I have from wayyyyy back. Perhaps saying that will free me to see it as positive? I'm not holding my breath on that one. The go-between usually gets it in the neck, I know that.

Certain Hope

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Re: The Stranglehold of Narcissism
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2006, 12:13:18 PM »
Jac,

  You and I are in agreement then ~ continuation of this discussion is counterproductive.

Portia,

   Thanks for clarifying that my words were quoted out of context.

Hope

Portia

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Re: The Stranglehold of Narcissism
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2006, 12:26:55 PM »
Hope, well i guess that I did clarify that your words came from another thread - i did that as much for myself as anyone. I was confused by it and then noticed that i recognised the quote from our other conversation.

Jac, actually I'm still confused by that quote, it seems really odd to me that you quoted it here. But I'll be content with being confused if this thread/conversation/whatever is over.


I don't know if this is conflict or an agreement to disagree. At least there seems to be an agreement on what's productive and not, so that seems reasonable!

Okay, I'm outta here but willing to return if anyone wants it.

Take care both.


portia guest

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Re: The Stranglehold of Narcissism
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2006, 05:25:20 PM »
Hi Jac

It's late, I'm tired and had an exhausting day. Still, thought I'd reply.

I believe your input here is counter-productive. 

Counter-productive to what exactly?? What is the objective? I have zero idea. I thought this was a place where we discussed stuff. Is my speaking counter-productive to discussion?

You don't know the background of the conversation that Hope and I were having, or the history.

I don't, very true. I better keep myself out of any threads I don't know the background to hey? Yes, sure will. That sure silences me, thanks.

What you are doing will only prolong this conversation, which with all due respect does not personally involve you.

Hell's teeth Jac! people are having private conversations now? That others can't comment on or join? Nobody told me but thanks for telling me.

I would ask now that you not insert yourself into this conversation that has come an end.

Am i doing that now? I'm responding to you, not your 'conversation'.

Thank for respecting my boundary,

Yah, I'm not inserting myself any more (Jac, that sounds quite riske). Over and out. long day don't feel too good. Had enough quite frankly but hey, nobody asked me about my day right? No problem. I'm outta typing outta words just another day on a blue-green planet 'Night


Certain Hope

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Re: The Stranglehold of Narcissism
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2006, 05:34:09 PM »
Sorry you had a bad day, Portia.

Hope you rest well.

Hugs

Hope

Hopalong

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Re: The Stranglehold of Narcissism
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2006, 06:26:30 PM »
Hi Portia,

Because this is a public forum, you are free to post or ask questions on any thread. If there is a discussion that is opaque and you want to ask for more information, imho it is not wrong to ask questions. (If two people prefer that others don't participate in their conversation, they can say so. It might be more peace-inducing to say it up front...but they may not have been aware that this is where they would wind up.) At that point, I think it could help to move things to PMs, but that's not a rule either.

There is never a guarantee that a person who's upset may not respond with anger or by scolding. The challenge is not to take it personally. Sometimes when I'm asked to be quiet, not participate, etc., I feel shamed. That doesn't necessarily mean I did anything wrong...it means I was well-trained to feel shame when someone corrects me or tells me I've made a mistake.

There's a part of me that even after all these years of work will still pop in and say, of course, the person who tells me to shut up is right, and there was something wrong with me for speaking.

I remember a T telling me once:

In a healthy system, you are always free to comment.

That remark has always stayed with me.

Really sorry you had a crappy day, P. You are not alone on this blue planet.

(((((P)))))

Hops

PS--Jac and Hope, I won't comment on your conversation. But I'd like to say I can imagine it must be very painful to lose your friendship, after such happy connection. I'm sorry.

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Gaining Strength

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Re: The Stranglehold of Narcissism
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2006, 09:31:15 AM »
Hops - what a kind and nurturing post.  This is a perfect example of naternal mediation that is so needed in our world and in my life.  I'm going to copy this and learn from it.  The conflict made my heart sad but I couldn't find a way to say something that sounded anything other than meddlesome, but you have spoken beautifully here.  Your words feel like a Balm in Gilead - "to make the wounded whole" - thank you, I needed these words on this low day - GS

Hopalong

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Re: The Stranglehold of Narcissism
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2006, 01:43:19 PM »
((((((((GS)))))))))))

Sending you bright sunshine.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Gaining Strength

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Re: The Stranglehold of Narcissism
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2006, 04:48:36 PM »
Receiving Hops - ((((((((((((((((Hops))))))))))))))))))
Many thanks. - GS

Hopalong

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Re: The Stranglehold of Narcissism
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2006, 01:05:20 AM »
Portia,

I saw a preview for a stunning show called Blue Planet last night...whaaaaaaaaaaaales, magnificent whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaales..........

Said to myself I am very glad I share the planet with whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaales and (((Portia))).

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Portia

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Re: The Stranglehold of Narcissism
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2006, 09:37:52 AM »
Hops yes, Blue Planet, made by BBC Bristol, excellent stuff. Wonderful! gets to your awe-gland 8)

Thanks for your kind wishes ((((Hope)))) and ((((Hops)))) my 5 minutes is up! Best wishes, P