simple question

[dragonsamm]

Pardon me for asking what appears to be a simple question.  Something (it seems to me) to be easy for the rest of the world to answer.  I have seen people here asking how one can regain "self" after events and circumstances of their lives have left them clueless.  My question is not about regaining, but in finding self to begin with.
I am not at all sure what it even means.  I feel much the way I did as a teenager when I first began to be aware of such a pursuit.  How is it possible that it's now 35 years later and I still cannot answer the question of "who am I?" with any sense of clarity at all?  AND know full well that I have NEVER had any kind of understanding of the question.
Because every answer I come up with includes a paradoxical response that totally cancel each other out.
This has probably been the impetus behind my voracious perusal of self-help books for the past 15 years -- to no (apparent) avail.
Any comments / advice are welcome.
Thanks
~dragonsamm~

[gratitude28]

Hey Samm,
Now you're getting it!!!! I think when you get to this question, you are making some serious progress.
The self is made up of a million tiny little atoms. The fact that you don't like lemon falvored cookies. The fact that you do like to watch CSI. The fact that you would rather stay in than go out. What you will and won't stand up for. The self is what makes you special. You won't find it all at once. But as you start to put it together, you will start to feel happier!!!!
I am so glad you are here. Thanks for the awesome question!
Love, Beth

[gratitude28]

BTW, I didn't mean to sound know-it-all-y. I just felt I had made some progress when I started asking this question. It means you are out of survival mode, you know?
Love, Beth

[Hopalong]

Greath answer, Beth.

Hi Dragon, glad to hear you!
I think the secret is that you can't find the answer in your intellect.
Many smart people I know go through or have gone through an agonizing time when they feel they can take firm stances on either one side or another, about a question. And that leaves them with, but this could be true OR that seems reasonable too...and they're heist on their own smart petards.

It's the curse of thinking. Not that one shouldn't. But in relative isolation, thinking can generate its own obscuring noise.

The answer to who you are is found in BOTH what you think and what you do--your actions, particularly in relation to other people...

Another answer (equally true) might be that you may define yourself as you want to.
What are your principles? If something wasn't your principle but you want it to be, what would that be? Etc.

Danger: getting hung up on absolutes and doing stuff perfectly. Please don't do that to yourself.

What would be wrong with answering it in a different way.
I am confusion.
I am searching.
I am open.
I am changing.

These are all okay too. You really won't dissolve if you're kind to yourself, daily, in small ways.

((((((((((((((Dragon)))))))))))))))))

Hops

[Portia]

Hi ((((((Dragonsamm))))))

Who am I?

Because every answer I come up with includes a paradoxical response that totally cancel each other out.
that's because you've got a great brain and you're using it have no gurus, don't believe what anyone, any book tells you. Please don't. Question everything, every idea, everything that others take for granted (you can find your own way). So, anyway, err sorry went off on one there.

http://www.nutramed.com/Philosophy/who_am_I.htm

try "who am I" philosophy in Google – really! Try it!!

Simple questions tend to be the most complex.

Many self-help books try to give you answers. Philosophy makes you think! And you obviously think a lot.

Who do you want to be today?

Can you be someone different tomorrow? 

[Portia]

I've been...searching the archives...: Please make time for some fun in your life today. Grab it where you can find it!

FROM LUKE'S JOURNAL
Exactly what are the problems we humans would like to solve?
The problem of unhappiness. Men don't like being unhappy. Frowns are bad for the complexion.
The problem of death. Death is felt to be a drag. Its silence is suspicious, a bit malevolent maybe. It is considered somewhat too permanent.
The problem of failure. It's not considered as much fun as success, but seems to arrive more frequently.
The problem of pain. Ingrown toenails, arthritis, headaches: the body always seems to stay one step ahead of Extra- Strength Tylenol.
The problem of love: it doesn't last, isn't returned, or is returned too zealously and jealously.
The problem of purpose: we don't seem able to find one or, having found one, we lose interest too rapidly.
The problem of reality: it's never quite clear what it is. John's and Jane's always seem to differ. Today's reality is tomorrow's illusion. And today's illusion. ..
The problem of evil: usually other people's. Too many bad people are doing it to too few good people. God's police force is understaffed.
The problem of self: we can never quite figure out who we are or, having figured it out, find it pretty depressing.
The problem of enlightenment: we often want it, but seldom have it. We know there is some better way of life, know we're currently not living it, and want to get there from here.

Life, as the Buddha said, is a thousand follies. And the sage is he who plays with the thousand follies.
'There is one way to be wise,’ said the Buddha.
'What is it, O Master?'
'To play the fool. '                              (George Cockroft)
                                                                   


Life is a tragedy for those who feel,
and a comedy for those who think.
La Bruyere


Think wrongly, if you please,
but in all cases - think for yourself.
Lessing


Many are destined to reason wrongly:
others, not to reason at all;
and others, to persecute those who do reason.
Voltaire.

[October]

Because every answer I come up with includes a paradoxical response that totally cancel each other out.

It sounds as if you are doing really well, I would say, Dragonsamm.  Paradox is an essential component of every healthy human being.  I am intensely loving, but at the same time I won't stand for any nonsense from anyone.  The Ns would say, that makes me unloving, and nasty to be around, because I won't let things be, and keep on stirring the pot.  The healthy view is that speaking the truth is partly how we find reality, and grounding.

So, welcome those paradoxes with open arms.  No room for paradox in the black and white, in or out world of the N.  Plenty of room for it in the real world, with real people, and complex relationships.

[Brigid]

Dragonsamm,
IMVHO, if we stop searching for our self, we have given up.  I see it as the eternal search, as our lives take a new fork in the road, the people around us change, our environment changes, and our dreams for the future develop in new directions.

I think there is danger in having a set vision for what and who we want to be, as we might just miss out on an opportunity which is sitting right in front of us.  We need to be flexible and open-minded, with many possible outcomes in mind.

I know that for me, personally, it became very devastating to think my life was heading in a particular direction, thinking I had it all planned, I knew who I was and what I wanted to do in the future.  When that rug was pulled out from under me, I couldn't see a new or different way into my future, which also meant finding a new self.  By having it all set in my head, it also meant that I didn't really see what was happening around me, the truths of my xh's behaviors and all the lies I had been listening to for years.  I still have dreams--I look forward to having grandchildren, I still hope I end up with a happy and comfortable family unit--but I keep other options open, so I never have to feel that sense of devastation again.

I think all of us here are searching for ourselves.  We are in very different places in that journey--but it is just that, a journey--I don't believe we ever fully reach the destination.  I don't see anything wrong in reading self-help books, but they can't tell you what to feel or think.  They can help to plant seeds of how you might feel or think about a particular subject, but only you can look inside you to determine if it is right for you. 

Developing the confidence to trust in yourself, rather than looking outside for affirmation and guidance is a big step in molding that sense of self, IMO.  Samm, I think you are heading in the right direction by asking this very complex and difficult question.  Unfortunately, no one else can provide the answer for you.

Hugs,

Brigid

[Hopalong]

Brigid,
I wish I'd had your wisdom engraved in my brain years ago--thanks for this:

I think there is danger in having a set vision for what and who we want to be, as we might just miss out on an opportunity which is sitting right in front of us.  We need to be flexible and open-minded, with many possible outcomes in mind

Set visions. I wanna have:
normal family
this much money
blue skies
Prince Charming

UN-set visions. I wanna be:
open
curious
loving
brave
honest

Hops

[dragonsamm]

Hey, everyone, thanks loads for the responses.
As usual, you've given me tons to think about, it may take awhile to absorb it all.  A lot of what has been said, I already understand, as far as paradox and not having set expectations for one's life. Another favorite quote of mine is:

"It is your judgements which keep you from joy, and your expectations which make you unhappy."
                                     --Neale Donald Walsch, "Conversations with God, Book 1"

Oh, how I understand that one!!
But I do not understand the difference between "accepting the things I cannot change" and "settling" for whatever comes down the pike.  My ability to trust my own judgement about what is and is not acceptable is severely lacking.
I guess I'm searching for something within that is unshakeable.  Some belief, some anchor that i can tether my spiritual flight to.  A place I can always count on to be strong and will carry me through the crap that happens.
I know full well that it is not "out there" in any other person, book, belief, or dream.  I'm looking for ME.
Isn't it possible to find some semblance of this person, even in the course of the journey itself?

Thanks, all of you , for the hugs, the words, the encouragement, the belief in me. 
More than words can say.

 

~dragonsamm~

[Hopalong]

You could start by saying 'I love you'...sincerely...
every morning to the mirror.

(I ain't kidding.)

After a while, 'you' will not see a stranger any more, but a friend.

And then the hunt is not so scary.

You're a good person, Dragon.

Hops

[October]

You could start by saying 'I love you'...sincerely...
every morning to the mirror.

(I ain't kidding.)

After a while, 'you' will not see a stranger any more, but a friend.

 

Can't even look in a mirror, let alone talk to it.  Except after a bath, when I write messages for d, or read the ones she has left me.

Never have a clean bathroom mirror.  Every time I get out the polish, she writes a new 'secret' message.   

[Portia]

Hi dragonsamm

Can I check your understanding against mine please?

It is your judgements which keep you from joy,
So try to be open-minded, curious, not stuffed up and dogmatic

and your expectations which make you unhappy."
I’m going to do this and see what happens vs. I’m going to do this and have a great time. If you expect something and it doesn’t happen, you’ll be unhappy. If you keep an open mind and expect nothing in particular, you won’t be unhappy.

I do not understand the difference between "accepting the things I cannot change" and "settling" for whatever comes down the pike. 

(What's a pike?) I find it very difficult to accept the things I cannot change. I keep bashing my head against brick walls. It hurts after a while but darn, I still do it. I stop faster these days.

Settling for what happens? No. Why settle for anything? This is not taking account of your personal agency in the world. You decide what you do and what you think. Not having expectations about outcomes is not the same as not acting upon the world. You act, do what you need and want to, but you don’t hang your happiness on a particular outcome. You’re happy with the process of life, not some specific goal. Make sense?

My ability to trust my own judgement about what is and is not acceptable is severely lacking.

Not acceptable to who? I don’t think I understand here. Can you say more please?

About trust: being able to trust myself is one of the last things I learned and I’m still learning. I feel a sound ‘base’ inside me now that wasn’t there before, some core of values and ways of thinking about things that I know will stay with me. The values might change but there’s this base on which I feel I’m made. A bit like : -

A place I can always count on to be strong and will carry me through the crap that happens.

Exactly . Find your own values. Find out what you think is right or wrong, or does it depend? Here’s a nice little test to see if you have conflicting ideas in your beliefs.
http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/check.htm

I had one major conflict until I worked out how I’d answered the question. Once you know what you think and why you think it, it creates a strong place inside you. It doesn’t matter so much what you think, but how you think.

Try it. What have you got to lose? And you can talk about if you like. I had to talk about this test, it intrigued me!


Hops

I can’t do that ‘I love you’ thing. I find it easier to focus away from myself, to find me. It’s the interactions with others that help define me! ha. Obviously  


October

How do you know if your nose is really, really clean....... ?

[Portia]

Hops

can i disagree please? I read you yesterday and frowned but didn't stop to figure why. So I just did. About:

think the secret is that you can't find the answer in your intellect.
Many smart people I know go through or have gone through an agonizing time when they feel they can take firm stances on either one side or another, about a question. And that leaves them with, but this could be true OR that seems reasonable too...and they're heist on their own smart petards.

It's the curse of thinking. Not that one shouldn't. But in relative isolation, thinking can generate its own obscuring noise.

Going through that agonising thinking about what you think is important to you delivers real results IF you come to the conclusion that there are very few, if perhaps no, black and white answers. If you realise that everything (or most things) are not yes/no but are maybe/it depends/grey (or even gray).

That isn't noise: that's coming to terms with the way our on/off yes/no brains are constructed. What we think is definite and sure, isn't (except death and taxes) and living with that ambiguity is progress.

? (haha this isn't absolute, it's open to debate )

[Hopalong]

Going through that agonising thinking about what you think is important to you delivers real results IF you come to the conclusion that there are very few, if perhaps no, black and white answers. If you realise that everything (or most things) are not yes/no but are maybe/it depends/grey (or even gray).

That isn't noise: that's coming to terms with the way our on/off yes/no brains are constructed.

Agreed, P! Yes, yes. I knew I wasn't thinking much when I wrote about thinking. I oversimplified. I am sure that if I hadn't gone through so many of those circular arguments in my own pea-brain I wouldn't feel so cozy about the fluidity of things now. (And it's not always cozy, that's for sure. Anxiety puts paid to that now and then.) A turnpike is a toll highway, like an interstate where you stop to contribute toward its maintenance, throw your money in the basket at the gate. Most of them are full of potholes.

I DO mean it that identity is found more in what you do (how you interact with others and the world) than in the abstractions your brain comes up with....but I didn't mean to dis thinking as an activity, and I couldn't agree with you more about paradox, living with ambiguity, accepting the generality that we don't know what's going to happen. The only happy answer to this rule of life, imo, is the stance we take to it:
curiosity v. terror
hope v. pessimism
action v. stagnation

I think the network of human relating is more important than any of it, for altruistic and selfish reasons. Altruism explains itself, and the selfish part is, I think when we are young and well enough to tie our brains in knots, we may take for granted that we'll always have that luxury. But living with such an old woman (and knowing her friends) has brought home to me that community is vital, vital, and that we need to build it intentionally, not accidentally, into our lives, so we can share good times but also have a bulwark against illness, divorce, grief, poverty, crisis. WHAT a difference it makes.

I've observed it so much this year in my church family, as several have died and others have been very ill. What a comfort it's been to see how practically and emotionally people in the community "flow in" to shore up the weak or hurt places in another's life.

Hops