simple question

[Portia]

Darn and i thought we'd disagree. Nope. 

Thanks for the pike explanation. I've seen 'Being John Malkovitch' and a bit of the Sopranos so the phrase 'New Jersey Turnpike' is embedded in my brain...didn't think to shorten it to pike (which just happens to be yet another fish.... )

[Hopalong]

A pike could gobble a kipper in one gulp.


 

[dragonsamm]

Well, now

I checked out the philosophy quiz.  It sucks, big time.  SOOOO many presuppositions about what "I" meant in each answer, no way to rephrase or clarify.  Excuse me, but absolute questions with absolute answers will never reveal the abstract, the grey area where those truths which do not exist in the black and white of life, lie.
I have probably ALWAYS resisted any absolute of any kind. (Read Ken Wilber's No Boundary).  So maybe that sense of resistance has prevented me from finding any absolute SELF within.  Never thought of that before. 
I have always been so open to change, to what is new, to what might be better than what 'was', it's second nature for me to question EVERYTHING.  I don't even have defineable habits.  Many of the Self-help gurus claim that doing any specific behavior on a daily basis for two weeks will make it an involuntary habit.  Doesn't work with me.  Never has. 

As for looking in mirror and saying "I love you", I tried that one, too.  All it accomplished was to clarify to me that I am a liar.  I can say it till the cows come home, but that doesn't make it real.  Period.
I know that this all sounds defeatist and depressing, but I am just telling it like it is.  I can pretend all the live-long day that I believe in something, but the bottom line is : I DON"T BELIEVE IT.
Even if I want to, even if I WANT to want to.  I look around my life and see that the belief is NOT there. 
And all the positive thinking, all the self affirmations, all the white-knuckle-just-hang-on-it'll-get-better placations have NOT changed anything at all.

I understand and fully believe that what I do is NOT as important as WHO I AM.  We are Human Beings, not Human Doings.  My behavior should be a reflection of who I am.  Another quote of Walcsh's (from Conversations with God, Book 3) is :

  "Every act is an act of self-definition.  Everything you think, do, and say declares, 'This is who I am.' "

What I cannot reconcile in my own heart and head are the contradictions that arise in the execution of those acts.
Paradox, I can deal with.  Contradiction is another matter.
My search is for a sense of understanding.  A feeling of peace that everything that can be a conscious choice, I am indeed choosing, and that I am making the best choice possible in the moment.  Allowing room for mistakes, for unforeseen circumstances, for non-choice options, etc, is acceptable, but I need a sense of belief in a foundation of Self.

community is vital, vital, and that we need to build it intentionally, not accidentally, into our lives, so we can share good times but also have a bulwark against illness, divorce, grief, poverty, crisis.

Yes, yes, yes, I fully agree.  In this way, what we do IS extremely important.  But without a sense of self as a foundation, individuals cannot build healthy community. IMO.
If I cannot trust myself, I will NEVER be able to trust others.  Period.

Portia, the "settling" comes in when I don't get the job I wanted, there isn't money for groceries, or my phone calls arent returned.  It's in the choiceless events.  I seem to find so many of these, I can no longer see where my choices DO lie. I know i can't control everything.  I just can't trust my own judgement to believe in myself.

My ability to trust my own judgement about what is and is not acceptable is severely lacking.

Not acceptable to who? I don’t think I understand here. Can you say more please?

Acceptable to me, of course, and the world where I have no choice but to be what others expect me to be.
(the working world, specifically) and the financial resposiblity world. 

Sorry about the confusion caused by my reference to "coming down the pike".  It's a phrase I picked up from my mother without ever thinking that others wouldn't know what it meant.   

(even if you think it means a fish!)   

Cannot tell you all how much this dialogue means to me.  Every day i log on with an expectation of having been ignored, told I'm only having a pity party, told that I made my bed, now I have to lie in it, or worse, told I'm crazy, need to leave.  (old tapes of rejection fade slowly)

Thanks for the hugs.

~dragonsamm~

[Portia]

Wow

a hug for a great thoughtful thought-packed absolutely brimming over with "I am-ness" post 

(((((((((((((((dragonsamm)))))))))))))

Don't have much time at the weekends but i want to reply and will do....later...just wanted to say: I did that quiz in a magazine and twice I wanted to throw it across the room in frustration! The descriptions of the so-called 'tensions' are the most interesting part. And I disagree, the questions aren't all phrased as absolutes: just because you might disagree with an absolute idea doesn't mean you think the opposite, absolutely.....the questions are worded very carefully. Hey if you like I can send you the magazine text on email (I see your email via the wee white envelope). Let me know if you're interested.

I did a quick look on Wilber and found:

Absolute and relative truth
Wilber accepts the two truths doctrine of Buddhism. It maintains that, to avoid philosophical confusion (or "category collapse"), we must clearly distinguish between the absolute truth of emptiness and the relative truths of form. All of Wilber's AQAL categories — quadrants, lines, levels, states, and types—relate to relative truth. None of them are true in an absolute sense. Only formless awareness, "the simple feeling of being," exists absolutely.

"the simple feeling of being" i agree, at least it SEEMS absolute . Those choices and the stuff of everyday life are all relative and complex I think. More ....follows...at some point.

take care!

[Hopalong]

Hi! Hi! I have an opinion! (Well, two.)

P and D: Philosophy is to my brain like math or chess. I do not have that hemisphere. The whichever-is-the-fuzzy-half of my brain is very impressed though, waving madly across my inner-cranial space at a vaguely planet-like thing floating over there that appears to have a sort of brain-hemisphere-like shape...but it's kind of ghostly. However, my half-brain is so happy to see you two talking this talk together! 

Dragon, my other opinion is that you could always look in the mirror and say:
Hops loves me.

Hops

[moonlight52]

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Samm Portia Hops Beth Brigid October))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))


Wilber accepts the two truths doctrine of Buddhism. It maintains that, to avoid philosophical confusion (or "category collapse"), we must clearly distinguish between the absolute truth of emptiness and the relative truths of form. All of Wilber's AQAL categories — quadrants, lines, levels, states, and types—relate to relative truth. None of them are true in an absolute sense. Only formless awareness, "the simple feeling of being," exists absolutely. [/color]

"the simple feeling of being" i agree, at least it SEEMS absolute . Those choices and the stuff of everyday life are all relative and complex I think. More ....follows...at some point.


"I" have come to a place of seeing or thinking through my heart the combination of heart and mind and feeling and thinking do not cause distress or very little............

"I"CAN SEE THE PARADOX AND CONTRADICTIONS BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE WE ARE A PLANET OF FREE WILL AND DUALITY BUT ALSO THERE IS A "PLACE" BEYOND.

"I" accept the paradox and  contradictions  and ask fewer questions this does not mean "I" know anything.

It means "I" am Here we are Here what ya want to do what ya want to feel "I" feel there are choices and safety no matter what happens "out there".

"I" feel this way when I do not look back I feel this way in mediation and prayer thats a whole other FISH .

"I" see the wholeness of isness I feel the circle.I do not know if this translates "who" or where I am .But thats all the think a dee think I have to play with today.

 The simple feeling of being IS THE ISNESS .It can be both and simple and ok.Until it is not but thats ok too.

   moon

Samm the I am ness is all over the place A great source for seeing self that I love would be the Marx Brothers I can not get enough of them .
Also I am in Love forever with Mr George S. Kaufman. 

[moonlight52]

((((((((((((((((Samm))))))))))))))))))))))))

I sat in on  a conference with Walcsh really dynamic guy one of the most interesting speakers at the seminar .
This conference is called Celebrate your Life Mr Walcsh attends every year.

moonlight



p.s. Also he is a funny guy 

[dragonsamm]

Moon,
That is so cool!  This man presents a strong case for the discovery of reasons to Celebrate one's life.   From where he started (before his books) to where he is now, he shows a ton of hope for the rest of us.  Unfortunately, I don't have anything to say that would sell books the way he has, so I have little real hope for such things.
I would still listem if I had the opp to see him, tho

thanks
~dragonsamm~

[October]

October

How do you know if your nose is really, really clean....... ?

I can't see the back of my knees, but I know they are clean.   

[October]

I DO mean it that identity is found more in what you do (how you interact with others and the world) than in the abstractions your brain comes up with....but I didn't mean to dis thinking as an activity, and I couldn't agree with you more about paradox, living with ambiguity, accepting the generality that we don't know what's going to happen. The only happy answer to this rule of life, imo, is the stance we take to it:
curiosity v. terror
hope v. pessimism
action v. stagnation

I think the network of human relating is more important than any of it, for altruistic and selfish reasons. Altruism explains itself, and the selfish part is, I think when we are young and well enough to tie our brains in knots, we may take for granted that we'll always have that luxury. But living with such an old woman (and knowing her friends) has brought home to me that community is vital, vital, and that we need to build it intentionally, not accidentally, into our lives, so we can share good times but also have a bulwark against illness, divorce, grief, poverty, crisis. WHAT a difference it makes.

I've observed it so much this year in my church family, as several have died and others have been very ill. What a comfort it's been to see how practically and emotionally people in the community "flow in" to shore up the weak or hurt places in another's life.

Hops

I wish my church was like that.   

I think you are right that we define ourselves largely by those around us.  Mostly we have a vast circle of acquaintances, and a select inner circle of close friends or relatives.  I find myself in a very difficult position because of the agoraphobia connected with ptsd.  I have no acquaintances at all, and three friends and perhaps two relations in my inner circle.  This is not healthy, I know, but I am finding that the numbers are reducing, instead of increasing, and my reaction is to close down even further. 

What I mean, I think, is that if you, anyone, wants a healthy sense of self, then find healthy people to share your time with.  People who do not use you, or mistreat you, or even speak disparagingly about other people who are not present (because the chances are they will do the same to you behind your back.)

I hate to be defeatist, but I feel at present as if I can do none of this.  But this is the right way, I am sure.

[IamNewtoMe]

have no acquaintances at all, and three friends and perhaps two relations in my inner circle.  This is not healthy, I know, but I am finding that the numbers are reducing, instead of increasing, and my reaction is to close down even further. 

What I mean, I think, is that if you, anyone, wants a healthy sense of self, then find healthy people to share your time with.  People who do not use you, or mistreat you, or even speak disparagingly about other people who are not present (because the chances are they will do the same to you behind your back.)

I hate to be defeatist, but I feel at present as if I can do none of this.  But this is the right way, I am sure.

Hi October, I have missed much of this thread (a lot of it is over my head!), but I wanted to chime in because I can relate so much to what you just said. I know very few people, and I find my circle getting smaller as I decide not be be a doormat. Sometimes I feel like only person I have to talk to is my husband, and when we fight (a lot lately), I feel totally isolated.

The way you suggested is the right way, I am sure, too.  When i hear you say it, and you are troubled that feel you can't do it, I think, "Of course October can do it!  She's nice, I like her, she will get there eventually."  So I say this to myself a little, too.

On edit:  I replied to October, but thinking on this more, I realize how much I like so many people here.  Good people, nice people, caring and thinking people here in cyber space.  Gives me hope for finding soem in 3D someday. 

[Hopalong]

Hii October,
I'm sorry I forgot about your agorophobia.
Can you invite a few people in?
That way you're in your own comfort zone.
Maybe you could find an opportunity for service by hosting a small potluck meeting.

On Nov. 7 I'm going to a call-up-undecided-voters party, for example. People have signed up online to host small gatherings. So I'll meet new people, we'll all be busy, and we'll have a purpose/activity to do together, which always eases the way.

Wouldn't have to be political, but small meetings focused around social action can work that way too, I feel. Don't have to become a wild-eyed anarchist or spend more time than you want...you're in control.

Hope that might be helpful, and for New, too.

love,
Hops

[October]

Hii October,
I'm sorry I forgot about your agorophobia.
Can you invite a few people in?
That way you're in your own comfort zone.
Maybe you could find an opportunity for service by hosting a small potluck meeting.

   Erm, I think that is one to think about.   

The sad thing is, I have acquaintances, neighbours and such, and we get on very well.  But somehow or other, the divorced single parent never seems to be remembered when it comes to get togethers, fireworks, suchlike.  They remember me if they want clothes altering, or cushions making, but never if there is any social gathering.  Maybe I should think of having fireworks myself.  Hmm...

[beexus]

What a lovely question.
I'm new to this forum and still haven't figured out how to post, but at least I can reply.

I like your question very much and I hope my answer can inspire you a wee bit.

How you find yourself is by giving yourself permission to be completely uncensored and trust your intuition.

 In other words...what would you honestly choose if you didn't have to be practical? what would you honestly choose if you didn't have to be considerate? what would you honestly choose if you didn't have to account for your actions? what would you choose if money didn't matter? 
what would you choose if you didn't have values and morals? what would you choose if it was all about you?

I think it's all in the small things and in being utterly honest with yourself...your deepest gut instincts.

Just some thoughts...
I wish you well.
Thanks for your time.

[Portia]

Hi dragonsamm

I agree with Hops about connections with other people - very important. By interacting I think we find ourselves, but the interactions are necessary. Talking to oneself has its place too of course but we can get locked inside our own heads!


Hops,

i reckon you can hold your own in any philo/psycho/social conversation! Yes you can. Ego-chatter.

I do look in the mirror and say: “you’ll do” . Acceptance!


Moon

The simple feeling of being IS THE ISNESS

I am, you are, we are, it is – could be a nice chant / incantation / invocation ?


((((((((((((Iamnewtome))))))))))))


October

okay...maybe my nose-cleaning rituals are somewhat over-the-top I like a very clean nose


Hi Beexus

and welcome I like your questions. (Help item for you if you want it: want to start a new thread: click ‘New Topic’ the button just above the top post and it’s yours).