What You'll Get Here

[gratitude28]

What you won't get here:

A nicer mom/dad/spouse/child... Or a way to make the person nicer

An answer to why you have had to go through this

An answer to why your N is the way he/she is


What you'll get:

A way to look at YOUR reaction tot he N and minimize the impact that the nasty words and actions have on you

An understanding of how your pattern of reactions has developed and can be changed

Support from people who understand and know you are NOT crazy or making it up



Why did I write this???? I think for the new people who are so shocked and amazed by the idea of what they have lived with that they need a bit of clarity on what can be accomplished in regards to a relationship with an N.
Love you all and look forward to reading more posts.
Beth

[Portia]

Good one Beth

I thought:

A nicer mom/dad/spouse/child... Or a way to make the person nicer

- Yes, they're not going to change. Although in understanding them, you might see them differently.

An answer to why you have had to go through this

- I have an answer: pure chance, bad luck. Life is not fair, life is complex and difficult. However, having a tough time makes a huge opportunity for learning: lemons / lemonade.

An answer to why your N is the way he/she is

- Probably their primary caregivers' effect, possibly something like physical brain damage. The why doesn't matter so much as accepting that they won't change.


What you'll get:

A way to look at YOUR reaction tot he N and minimize the impact that the nasty words and actions have on you

- Agreed. A place to ask yourself: "why do I even want to be around this person?" It's difficult when they're a parent, but the question still applies with a parent (you don't have to be around them).

An understanding of how your pattern of reactions has developed and can be changed

- Yes. Still working on this one Beth. Not easy.

Support from people who understand and know you are NOT crazy or making it up

- Absolutely!! When I first came here it was like I'd entered a parallel world and sometimes I had to push this new world away - it was too much to accept. It can be overwhelming. But what has happened to me here - I've had the encouragement and advice I needed to change my thinking and feelings - amazes me. I'm amazed.

Thanks Beth!

[October]

Love you all and look forward to reading more posts.
Beth

Thanks, Beth

What else will you not get:

Condemnation
Pathologising (making you feel you are the problem, every time)
Knee jerk reaction
Crazymaking


What else you will get:

Friendship
Support
Love
Truth, even if it is hard to read
Sanity
Acceptance
Encouragement

[Portia]

Storm you've prompted me to say,

October,

I think I disagree about not being condemned, or made to be the problem, or knee-jerk reactions or indeed crazymaking because even tho' it's my perception, I've seen all of those things. It's going to happen sometimes because, well, it happens. Most of the time though it feels positive; just sometimes the dynamics will lead to different behaviours that might appear unhelpful. But it's all helpful learning, just sometimes, and rarely, it doesn't feel like it.

Or is it just me that thinks that?!

[moonlight52]

I have  all but my "sanity" .

Really all you have said Beth is so true it's not easy to be "real" with yourself but it feels so much better.

What you have said about acceptance is so very  important .

Oops the first time I have posted in a while and little moonlet wants to go to the store sheeeeeeeeeeee hungry!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hugs to you guys 

moon

[Gaining Strength]

What you'll get:

A way to look at YOUR reaction tot he N and minimize the impact that the nasty words and actions have on you

An understanding of how your pattern of reactions has developed and can be changed

Support from people who understand and know you are NOT crazy or making it up

Beautifully written.  This is such a wonderful reminder of where I must direct myself.  - GS

[penelope]

Some really cools friends and a support system...if you're open to the idea, that is.   

bean

[WRITE]

But you might also get a bit of denial and enabling-type recommendations pushed at you. Because we are all struggling with that, or we wouldn't be here.

I don't like to see anyone given advice to behave meanly themselves! I know that's partly my idealism- sorry but if you had bipolar 1 you'd be pretty scrupulous too for those times you get out of control!- but I do think if I want a good healthy life then the foundation for that isn't for example in my case treating my ex how he would automatically treat me.

A nicer mom/dad/spouse/child... Or a way to make the person nicer

- Yes, they're not going to change.

people DO change, even if the change isn't enough for us to be able to be in a close reciprocal relationship with them, or even if we are so much engrained in a pattern together we have to disengage.

People change here- on the board- I have and most of the people who post.

Every time we share something new- language, a helpful concept, kindness- the ripples go out to those around us. Even stuff we don't want to accept or learn from at first.

The most profound effect of loving is on ourself- that sense of having done everything loving you can and being trusting that nothing was lost and the universe will send it all back for you.

It's hard to demonstrate, but let me give an example from my week:

this week, my ex bought a house. Less than 3 days before closing the insurance people called and said they made a mistake and the original insurance quote is now $500 a year higher, sorry. Ex reacted furiously, and said he was getting an 11 th hour blindside as so often happens here where there aren't many comlaints or regulatory bodies. Anyway he was shouting about it- at me!- and left. But the next day when I saw him he told me he went home and wrote an impassioned email to the office manager saying he was upset that they have handled all his business in the states and he is very disappointed to be blindsided at the last minute during a stressful week. He said 'even if they don't listen I felt I had to tell them'.

Yesterday he received an apology from the office manager and an agreement to honour the original quote. He responded with a thank you and said he will continue to do business with them.

I heard him tell the realtor about it at the signing and say ' appealing to people's better nature works better than getting angry!'

This all may seem like nothing much- and for me he still yelled at me when it's no business of mine ( I did get an apology btw- took him about 12 years to learn how to do them! ) But he went away and thought it through and applied a different softer logic to the situation, made himself vulnerable, and received the benefits of that- feeling better, developing a sense of agency in a 'helpless' situation, and finding resolution and fairness.

Many people do not believe life is going to be fair to them. They don't believe there's enough. And that's why even the most pleasant person can change in an instant and become angry or mean or controlling. They believe if they show vulnerability someone will see that as weakness and take advantage, when in interpersonal relationships more often showing your vulnerability leads to the other person recognising theirs and behaving more reasonably or kindly.

The N person who 'gets' all this is starting to repair a most fundamental part of their problem- someone took advantage of their vulnerability and while they will never give anyone that opportunity again they will mourn their lack of intimacy- and try to compensate for it with controlling manipulative behaviours.

And that's something else too- can personality disorder change or be healed? I'll write some more about that on the N parents thread.

[Portia]

  Write

A nicer mom/dad/spouse/child... Or a way to make the person nicer

- Yes, they're not going to change.

I agreeeee with you! Of course people can change their behaviour. Do you think they change their neural connections too? Who knows. Don't want to go there on this thread.

However..............................what is helpful for a person to hear at one point may not be helpful to another person at another point.

I was thinking of people who maybe Beth was orginally addressing with this thread - people new to the ideas and shocks of personality disorders.

For them it appears, to me, helpful to concentrate on themselves and not on trying to change someone else.

Yes my response may be wrong in some ways. But it may be more helpful to some people than a debate.

As for Storm's phrasing, i think she means that you might also get recommendations pushed at you which are made under the influences of denial and enabling in the member here. Not that the member would be recommending denial and enabling.

I guess my observations would be: hey we're all human and fallible here and just trying to help ourselves and each other out where we can.

[WRITE]

my response may be wrong in some ways. But it may be more helpful to some people than a debate.

why is it wrong?

I don't think there is right or wrong for this- it's an overall and it's the mix informs what decisions we make about what we're going to do in a given situation.

And that's fluid I think too over time.

Not sure what you mean by debate P? I don't think I'm being argumentative, and I certainly wouldn't point out individually where I thought people were giving others negative advice! Though I would have done a couple of years ago...so I guess I've learned to shut up a bit!

people new to the ideas and shocks of personality disorders.

yes, it is a revelation to find a label which fits, but that is also all it is, 'a hook'. It's still a process of extrication from your own individual circumstances. I don't think there's any magic formula which works for all situations?

hey we're all human and fallible here and just trying to help ourselves and each other out where we can.

that's true for everyone.

I think itwas the most enabling thing I ever learned: we're all exactly the same underneath. Even the Ns!

[Gaining Strength]

The most profound effect of loving is on ourself- that sense of having done everything loving you can and being trusting that nothing was lost and the universe will send it all back for you.

Thanks for that reminder.  One of my favorite prayers is one attributed to St. Francis that says in part, "... seek no so much to receive love as to love..." with the implication that it is in loving that we are loved.  When I keep this in the forefront of me mind I improve. thank you for that Write - love -Gaining Strength

PS

Many people do not believe life is going to be fair to them. They don't believe there's enough. And that's why even the most pleasant person can change in an instant and become angry or mean or controlling. They believe if they show vulnerability someone will see that as weakness and take advantage, when in interpersonal relationships more often showing your vulnerability leads to the other person recognising theirs and behaving more reasonably or kindly.

This describes me so well. (Well except the part about "the most pleasant person.") I was unaware that I felt vulnerable, that I expected people to cheat me and that my angry reactions were out of line.  This spring I read something about the entitlement sense of narcissistic people and I was struck by a lightening bolt, recognizing myself in those words.  But WRITE your description gets to the source of that entitlement - a feeling of having been cheated and belittled from early on.  That wretched state of being cheated out of affection, love and nurturing as a child does leave fear and mean spiritedness - no doubt.  All the more important for those of us so damaged to open up to the love available elsewhere - but always with very thick filters to protect us until we develop excellent boundaries.  That's one of the gifts of this board - it serves as a great safety where we can receive true encouragement and support and if we get something that seems untoward we can pass it by.

Thanks again friend.

[Portia]

Hiya Write you sound up and good today

why is it wrong? To say people don't change...well it sounds absolute and people do change in some ways but I think not in others. It depends.

Debate? Well I just didn't want to go on and on explaining what I meant! When you said 'people DO change'.

I certainly wouldn't point out individually where I thought people were giving others negative advice! Though I would have done a couple of years ago...so I guess I've learned to shut up a bit!

Not sure is this is 'bad' or 'good' or neither? Sometimes we do it (did I just do it?) sometimes not? Is that okay?

I don't think there's any magic formula either! It depends.

we're all exactly the same underneath. Even the Ns
Umm. To a certain extent yes but exactly, I don't think so but now I'm debating! I suppose that's okay. *sigh* at myself

[WRITE]

you sound up and good today

I've been ill for a few days- isn't it wonderful how you suddenly appreciate that most taken-for-granted thing health afterwards ( for a few days at least  )

I see what you mean, I think, in terms of the board a lot of us have been hanging around waiting for people to change for ever. I guess to clarify my position ( in the debate?! ) I am not advocating that- in fact I don't think I am entirely at the place I will come to which some others are here, where relationships are completely open to love but the boundaries are what comes from us naturally in response to what others are doing and our reactions.

With the El Crusho guy when some of you were saying oh well if he isn't into you then you don't need to be getting more involved do you....all I was thinking was I really am into him and I wonder what he looks like naked! It took a few pushes from y'all to get me into a healthier place of ' see what he does and respond only to that, not what you want to happen ' etc.

I'm getting better but not quite in place, I still don't love myself enough is I suspect why. And when i project my suspicions/ motivations/ desires I'm still trying to influence an outcome too much. I can't be truly vulnerable until I am no longer opening up old wounds, bit longer healing time required!

( sorry to keep using 'I' scenarios- it's just I really don't feel 100 % comfortable describing others and emotions...I can only really know how it is for me, but I am really interested in how it is for you- so yes, it's okay Portia! )

This is put better by GS, thanks GS:

All the more important for those of us so damaged to open up to the love available elsewhere - but always with very thick filters to protect us until we develop excellent boundaries.  That's one of the gifts of this board - it serves as a great safety where we can receive true encouragement and support and if we get something that seems untoward we can pass it by.

[moonlight52]

Write,

I am so glad you are doing well today and feeling better .

Wanting or trying to control outcomes is a problem for me .

When I can see I am doing this I know I am not being here and now.

I believe people are not all good or bad and am not comforable with judgment this has helped me in ways and also kept me soooooooooooooo
stuck in other ways.

Back to the lemons and lemonade theory.

thank you Write Your kindness is shining for others to see

moon

[October]

Storm you've prompted me to say,

October,

I think I disagree about not being condemned, or made to be the problem, or knee-jerk reactions or indeed crazymaking because even tho' it's my perception, I've seen all of those things. It's going to happen sometimes because, well, it happens. Most of the time though it feels positive; just sometimes the dynamics will lead to different behaviours that might appear unhelpful. But it's all helpful learning, just sometimes, and rarely, it doesn't feel like it.

Or is it just me that thinks that?!

I remember those things happening a while ago. But I have only been back a short time, and since coming back I have had nothing but love and support.  Maybe it is still honeymoon time for me.