I am going nuts and need help!

[hounded]

First off. Thank all of you for reading and posting. I have just found this board and I hope that those of you who read this will react and respond honestly. I don't need my feelings spared, I need honest to God help from people who have suffered from verbally and emotionally abusive people.

I am an abuser. When I first heard that I was struck like a bolt of lightning - Who me - Your nuts! Anyway, I have done the most damage to my wife of 10+ years and my stepchild. I didn't know I was doing it. I was raised by two very nasty parents - who thought they were doing the right thing too.

My wife and I have been in counseling for over 18 months and yes I have had some significant growth. Our current counselor has my wife convinced that I'm narcissistic, I don't agree. I have reviewed what a narcissistic person does and I have 1, maybe 2 traits that fit. That said, I know I am an abuser, I don't want to be. DENIAL is big, but when given the opportunity to think about what is said - I usually change stream. 

The problem is I don't blame my wife if she left me. She is angry, unforgiving, hurt, and tired. She came from an abusive family and married a man much like her father. I was in so much denial that I didn't see the similarities between him and my father and me! I disliked both men and swore that I would never be like them. I was better, but still failed miserably. I have had to come to terms with my own issues and am still discovering more to fix. My wife added to them with her excessive spending and demands for lifestyle. I missed out a lot on my life working to keep her happy (80 hour weeks+). When she realized that no amounts of money was going to make her happy, our relationship went south and quick. Not because she was about money - just that she realized there was more to life.

We have additional kids together and my behavior toward them has been phenomenally different than with the first one. I still fight tendencies, but over all I have done much better. My wife's quote is 18 months ago I was a 10 on the abuser scale - today I am a 3. I thought - hey you should be happy look at that progress - Wrong - I know I need to be a ZERO. I try to rationalize my behavior- Something I wish I could stop (Any suggestions)

How do you get to be a ZERO on the abuser scale when the person you love and have hurt badly keeps challenging you? I don't blame her for having no more patience with me, again I couldn't blame her is she took the kids and left. Not for my behavior today - yes it is still wrong - just not so bad (or doesn't it matter - need help here) , but what I have done in the past. I know its right of her to have limited patience with my behavior, but trying to overcome all of my own issues is tough. (Writing this I know I am wrong here too). I just want to please my wife. I love her and I don't want her to leave. But maybe leaving is the best thing for her. I have a great relationship with my kids - I have tried to make amends with my stepson. I have admitted my mistakes to him and have tried to get him help for his subsequent issues. (wife still very angry over the raising of her son - even though she acknowledges that she abused him emotionally too)  - WE were to young and dumb the first go around. We are both smarter and more open minded. I'm still working on my open mindedness.

Sorry rambling - just trying to get out what needs to get out so a dialog can be started. I am wrong, I am tired of being wrong, I want to be fixed - but it is tough - have trunks to unpack. Tired of hurting those who love me - apologies aren't enough - actions only speak - and I can't seem to get enough positive days before being told what I am doing wrong. Confused - Dazed - In Pain - Tired!

As a side note - I'm not obsessive about my wife and I don't think she is perfect. My wife is getting healthier with her issues. I don't really have a problem with where she is at. I just trying to figure out how I can do better without hurting her anymore and not lose her. Being sick and climbing out of the hole is tough.

Thanks for reading and sorry if this is the wrong forum for my post.

 

[Hopalong]

Hi Hounded,

You sound very accountable to me, I respect that. I believe you, what you have been and what you want to be. You may still make some attempts at rationalizing, etc., but it's a hard thing for most humans being to look in the mirror with no steam whatsoever.

I will make some suggestions that just come from living, loving, losing and reading about this stuff until my eyeballs ache. Please take what helps you and leave the rest. And, welcome here. There are also many suvivors of abuse here, so you will learn in different ways.

My advice (I won't editorialize about why I give it as I've typed so much here lately):

I think you are on your way to a new life. A better life. I also think the path is so steep and rocky that you will be exhuasted and have bruised knees and sore palms when you get there. But the view will be good.

But I think you have the wrong goal. Not because it's bad to want her to stay, but because wanting her to stay diverts you from what will change your whole life, and bring you more happiness, peace and stability than you can achieve if preventing her from leaving is your only focus.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to save your family. In fact, it's an admirable wish. It shows that belatedly or not, you see what a great loss it would be. And families do matter.

So I would suggest that you instead make your goal strictly and determinedly, to:

interact with love and respect with your wife and children
stop defending yourself -- completely
be impeccably honest about everything you have done
keep your focus on your own behavior
study and get help in learning how to be present and to listen
ask a marriage and family therapist to give you specific training in empathic listening

Overall, make your goal to be the kind of human being you want to be NOW, not on controlling an outcome that may (or may not) result from the kind of human being you HAVE BEEN

If she decides to go, open your arms and do not clutch. Tell her, with deep respect, that you understand and accept her decision. Tell her you will cooperate with her in any way you can to ensure that you continue to be a loving father to the children and a caring friend to her.

At the same time, if she decides to go, it is right and fair for you to not be punished. Once a marriage ends, it does end. Every dynamic is new. And the past must not be thrown in her face.

If you are consistent in the respectful communication, and in loving, and in being honest, from this day onward, you do not deserve to be kitchen-sinked with your past either.

Her way of self-medicating through shopping will have to end. So if she leaves, negotiate fairly. You both need an equitable (not a punitive) settlement that does justice to her and the children and allows you a dignified if simpler life. You are not obligated to keep them in an upper-class lifestyle. You are obligated to keep the children secure, nourished and protected, in a safe and positive location where their education will go forward.

Perhaps she will stay, when she notices your commitment and your growth.
Perhaps she will not.

The way through this is to make being an honorable man, in your behavior, not in the labels you wear, for the rest of your life. That is what will bring you peace.

Welcome here. I hope it's a good experience for you. There are so many wise ones here.

Hopalong


Read When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron (ignore the Buddhist lingo if it's not for you)

[penelope]

hounded,

How exactly are you still being abusive, even if only a 3 on the scale?  I think that would determine whether your wife should give up - also, her feelings are the most important thing in all of this.  Does she still love you?  It is a bit N to think that you could get her back even if you get to Zero (Zero in this case being good - sort of ironic you chose that scale).  Cause that won't erase the past.

p

[WRITE]

I thought this was quite well-written what I've read of it ( haven't read the whole site )

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067a_qa.html

You can't know what the outcome will be for reconciliation though, just work on yourself and improve your life and the lives of those around you whatever.

As for the N label, well it's the new bipolar! People love to have a peg to hang everything on in our quick-fix world. If you are N it is quite a wide spectrum and the Ns I know/ know of don't usually go looking for support or help, they've been pretty defensive for a long time. Took my ex about 15 years to accept the term verbal abuse.

Habits take time to change, and commitment to persevere.

Good luck.

[moonlight52]

Hounded ,    



 I do hope the truth will set you free that is the only thing that sets anyone free.....................


m

[Plucky]

Maybe I am stupid, but I would like to think that hounded is actually trying to get better.
Without a long analysis, I would just say that if you feel your efforts to date are not being recognised, and that is hampering your ability to continue to improve, as well as killing your chances to stay together, why not bring this up in therapy?  That is the forum where needs should be aired.
Either your marriage has already been damaged beyond repair, or there is still some chance of salvaging it.  You also need to find this out, and T is a safe place to discuss it.
You will have to accept the result, even if it is not what you want.  You wil also have to accept the responsibility.  You cannot say afterwards, I really tried my best but she slammed me anyway.   She has gone through years of hell.  It just may not be in her to trust any more.  But if not, you both need to face that.
Good luck
Plucky

[Portia]

Hounded, welcome

Thank you for your thank you!
I’ll ask questions to encourage you to think differently, and because sometimes I don’t understand and don’t want to assume. I hope this is okay with you? I'll put your words in italics, that I'd like to ask questions about.

I guess you’re a verbally and emotionally abusive person, in your opinion?

I’ll say straight off that in your post above, you sure don’t sound like one, not in your post. Are you a ‘Jekyll and Hyde’ type person?

My wife and I have been in counseling for over 18 months and yes I have had some significant growth. Our current counselor has my wife convinced that I'm narcissistic, I don't agree.

So the counsellor has put this to both of you, together, and your wife agrees and you don’t? What does the counsellor say to you, in response to your disagreement?

My wife's quote is 18 months ago I was a 10 on the abuser scale - today I am a 3.

What does the counsellor say? Is the counsellor also monitoring your wife’s behaviour? Are you giving your wife points out of 10 too?! I’m just wondering if the whole relationship is made your responsibility, when any reciprocal relationship takes two people responsible for their own parts in it. 

I thought - hey you should be happy look at that progress - Wrong - I know I need to be a ZERO.

Who should be happy – you or her? Who do you need to be a zero for – you or her? I’m guessing here you mean she isn’t happy and she thinks you need to be a zero. If so, I’d like to know what you think about yourself.

I try to rationalize my behavior- Something I wish I could stop (Any suggestions)

Can you give us an example please? Do you get angry, shout and swear and then say it’s because you’re tired, for example?

How do you get to be a ZERO on the abuser scale when the person you love and have hurt badly keeps challenging you?

What do you mean by challenging you? Is she baiting you so that you get angry?

I don't blame her for having no more patience with me, again I couldn't blame her is she took the kids and left.

You speaking here sounds so unlike any narcissistic person I’ve known. I’ve not known anyone with N tendencies want to take responsibility as much as you seem to want to.

Not for my behavior today - yes it is still wrong - just not so bad (or doesn't it matter - need help here)

Can’t answer your question there I’m afraid. I don’t know if your behaviour is wrong or not. If behaviour hurts others, then it hurts others. I still don’t know if it’s ‘wrong’ though. Is it wrong of me if I shout and swear at someone who is constantly using sarcastic remarks to hurt me? Grey areas. 

, but what I have done in the past. I know its right of her to have limited patience with my behavior, but trying to overcome all of my own issues is tough. (Writing this I know I am wrong here too).

I don’t think that I would leave another person today, for things that I know have happened in the past, if those things aren’t happening now. It depends of course, but leaving for past events? Unusual.

Why were you wrong writing that above? Overcoming bad behaviours is tough. Is that wrong? maybe I misunderstood there (it’s easy to misunderstand when we only have writing!)

I just want to please my wife.

Does she try and please you sometimes too?

I don’t think this is the wrong forum for you Hounded. You sound hounded. This is a forum for people who have been ‘voiceless’ at some point in their lives and from what you say, I imagine you were a voiceless child?

I hope you will post more here and in doing so that you will come to feel less nuts!

Welcome hounded .

[hounded]

Thank you all for your thoughts and comments.

I went home last night and asked my wife to take a Narcissistic test for me, which she had no problem doing. The problem was when she was done it said I wasn't, but she still believes that I am based upon our last therapist. It's OK.

As to trust - My wife doesn't trust me at all. I don't blame her for not trusting me. I DON'T TRUST ME!

AS to divorce. I love my wife and she says she loves me. She shows me the best way she can right now. That is where I get in trouble because one day she will shower me with affection, then complete remove it the next - this confuses me and then I feel hurt, then I ask her why she pushed away and then she gets defensive about why I would even ask. She says that my asking is abusive to her. Which then gets me upset because I can't rationalize asking her a simple emotional question would be abusive. Reading some of your post on other topics and some of the reactions in this stream, I realize that to her it is and that is all that matters right now. Learning  to give up my rights (not sure this is the right word), for now, is OK. It is hard to do, but I understand she needs to be able to come in and out of our relationship as she needs to. I just need to learn to keep my mouth shut and my emotional desires in check. Still like a child with this at times.

AS to our children, their awesome and I wouldn't purposely do anything to hurt them. That said, I realize subconsciously, I still can do harm if I'm not careful. If we were to divorce, I have tried to share with my wife that access to our children is the most important thing, money doesn't matter - We couldn't maintain our current life style - but then again I don't think we need to now anyway. Our kids are great and loving, losing them everyday would be hard.

I am a survivor to. I was physically, emotional, mentally, verbally abused and manipulated as a child. Both parents were extremely hurtful to me. You name and they did it. I did not realize but I used their treatment of me as a measuring board to my behavior. Past 18 months realized that even if I was 200 times better than them, I was still failing miserably. I haven't spoke to my father in 15 years and speaking to my Over-Bearing and Overly-Bonded Mother is like raking your tongue over glass - Devoid of love - Just Guilt and where's the money. I haven't had any good role models until this year. WOW - big statement - Finally found some good men to emulate.

Jac, I'm sorry that you may feel like I'm a stalker or whatever it was you called me. Pop out of no where asking for help from a group of survivors, I can understand your concerns. As to the truth if that, I can only say stay tuned and stay openminded. I'm not a bad person today, I was a bad person before, Therapy was about healing on all sides - not just to keep my wife. And no, I could not imagine a woman wanting to stay with me becasue of my past behaviors. Once realized - I have tried in earnest to overcome and stabilze. I posted here because I really want honest opinions about behaviors - more insight the more opprotunites to slove and heal.

Again, thanks again for your comments and your thoughts. God Bless everyone of you.
 

[hounded]

Portia,

The scale from 0-10 was my wife's identification of behavior over the past 18 months. It probably had to do with an argument over growth and how she honestly perceived my growth. Sometimes she gets angry (this is new for her - she is learning to speak her mind)  and says things that completely demoralize who I think I am. So, she rated my success to date. The desire to be a zero on the scale is my own desire- not hers. I want to be healthy, not angry, resentful, or depressed. I want to be happy with  what I have and live out my life loving and caring. Struggling to overcome my own issues, while trying to modify behavior that would satisfy her is difficult.

Trying to make my wife happy, right now, actually our whole married life, is like looking for treasure and someone keeps moving the X on the map. I have asked my wife to PLEASE write out her desires/needs for me so that I can have something visual to go by. Her response is "that is demeaning to her, she shouldn't have to write anything down, I should be able to remember". Problem is - today it is X, tomorrow it is Y, and so forth. Trying to stay focused on my own healing, business, paying bills (she is stay at home Mom), and her needs of survival is hard. She tells me that I only think of myself. I could give countless examples of this not being true - but it doesn't really matter.

As to the counselor - he first started off by trying to get me not to bite on her button pushing. Then he went into allowing her not being responsible for her actions. In one session she would make a comment - I would do my best to modify behavior specifically for that need, just to be told in counseling a month later that no one asked me to and no one could remember the comment anyway. Basically, my wife would be happy with that progress and move on to something new - but forget that she ever asked for it to begin with - She says it is my perceptions that are screwed up - She probably is right to a point - but when someone says something - I'm pretty good at bouncing it through my thick skull. The counselor said it didn't matter - It is tough when I am being held accountable, but the counselor is not holding the other one accountable. Plus he doesn't give advise - he believes in making a statement and letting you figure out what it means. I have told my wife that I am done with him and moving on to someone else. I have asked her to find someone new too. But that is up to her. The counselor has admitted to being an abusive person too and has learned how to be different. I think he misreads me, based upon his own perceptions. Anyway - dead issue - moving on to hopefully a better one.

Again, the answers above - Please do not take them as excuses for behavior. I still have anger issues and emotional needs issues. I don't really feel that I am an abusive person anymore - My wife feels differently. So, I try to accept her label and keep digging for what I need to do. Honestly, I wish my wife would spend more time on her therapy than she seems to on mine. Again though, I'm thankful she is still in there trying at all. This is where I get screwed up. Too much for my mind to deal with! The only blow ups we have now is when she unexpectedly withdraws, then waits until I ask for an explanation then - raises her voice and (what feels like) condemns me for my behavior. I am trying to understand her pain and hurts, I know she doesn't mean to lash out. I am trying to get her to understand that she is angry and that like me needs to do something different with it. Still work in progress here.

AS to my behavior today. I do not swear - occasionally something will slip out but it is not directed at anyone. In the past - yes I did swear at her and I understand that was my own cowardice not wanting to lose an argument - overpowering was what I had learned. This I'm not doing anymore. I believe that I am a worthy person - a good person - and I tell myself that every day. God made me for a purpose and it wasn't to be a piece of dirt, nor an abusive person. I have to remember that I am a worthy person because old feelings come back of parents constantly telling me what a piece of #$% I am. I have a successful business (am very well respected by my clients as an honest, ethical, and sincere person),  and have been successful in providing for my family - providing my wife the opportunity to stay at home with the kids over the past eight years.  I am learing to be a better listener and yes - I am very empathetic with her and others. I do feel other people's pain, I try to help others with their hurts - I believe God has actually brought hurt people to me for my help. I am very open to doing this, it is something I want to do. Just some much damage from before. I would love to take my wife's pain and carry it so she wouldn't have too.

If my wife left me today, it would be based upon past hurts. She doesn't want to be hurt anymore and the roller coaster that we have been on has been most painful for her. As a man, we deal completely different with emotional pain (not usually healthy). If I met my wife today and courted her, she would be extremely thankful for the man I am. She just has to many memories of the man I was. That I am truly sorry for.

Again thanks for you questions. I hope I answered them.

[Portia]

Hounded,

hope you're feeling less nuts today. You sound pretty good to me. Thanks for your posts. I think you express yourself clearly and well. If I get any emotion from your posts, it is frustration and feeling tired. Some confusion?

I hope too that you have an idea of what it means to you to be a 'good enough' father and a 'good enough' husband? Nobody is perfect, we're all fallible and human. You’re trying so hard, that shines through.

Glad you have some good role models and I really hope so much that they can help you trust yourself! I hope you can get to know yourself and know that you are not 'wrong', were never wrong: you were treated badly and maybe you've treated others badly, but that doesn't make 'you' wrong as a person! A mistake is not a person, it is a event.

I have told my wife that I am done with him and moving on to someone else.

Great news! This is what I wanted to say earlier but didn’t: please get your own therapist and work through your issues alone, away from your wife. I’m so glad to read that you’re going to do this.    I think if you start looking after yourself more, other things – your relationship with your wife, your own view of your behaviour, your actions themselves – will fall into place. I think you’ll gain so much from having your own therapist.

Please post more if you want to.

I'm sorry about your parents treatment of you ((((((((((((((Hounded)))))))))))))

[penelope]

hi again hounded,

that was me that commented about the scale - Portia may have as well, tho.  

Anyhoo.  I just wanted to say that reading your thoughts here, you do not sound very Narcissitic to me.  If anything, maybe you have a healthy level of Narcissism?  Where'd the test come from?  Is it valid?  Is the therapist's comment valid?

Your wife does seem to have a problem trusting and communicating, based on what you've described here.  That is a real problem.  Your behavioral moving target is nerve-wracking, I'm sure.  I think it's sweet that you asked for her to write down her needs so that you could try to understand.  That she declined and said "you should just know" is a sign of emotional immaturity, in my opinion.

This relationship can only work well if both of you are willing to grow and change and adapt.  Keep posting here, and try not to beat yourself up too much.  Maybe you should find an individual T for yourself, for support?  you deserve it if you came from an abusive home.  You deserve to heal and you deserve to be human, like the rest of us.  

hugs,
p bean

p.s. hmmm  I missed the comment jac made about you being a stalker, maybe?  where is that?

[hounded]

Thanks Portia and Penelope. I do feel stronger today, not sure why. Realizing that I have to stand up for my feelings, while not steping on others is tough. If only we could click our shoes three times and wake up normal and happy!

Really enjoy reading everyones post about everything. Makes me feel like I have company and am not alone.


Thanks

[hounded]

Dear Jac,


Thank you for such a thoughtful and well detailed response. You have every reason to question me and my post. I greatly appreciate your insight and wisdom from past experiences. You were right on most counts - except that I truly do want to change and have done so to a certain point. I also know that if allowed, I would probably slide back into those types of situations that would be hurtful to my wife or anyone else that I had a deep personal relationship with. I am glad that she holds me accountable, painful at times, but necessary. 

I came here looking for others who could empathize with both sides. As in all walks of life, just about everyone here has a different opinion based upon their place in life, health, and experiences. I believe based upon your response, that your life probably shadows my wife's life with me. So, I know anything that you can share can help me in trying to better understand my wife's pain and frustrations. I empathize greatly with your plight, I to empathize greatly with my wife's plight. I don't need to stay married to continue hurting my wife, this is not the plan. I truly cherish my wife and I have great sorrow over treating her the way I did and have. She is hurt and yes at times I am inpatient with the reattachment of our relationship. I fully acknowledge that this impatience is my problem, not hers. I just don't know how to deal with it effectively on a day to day basis.

In dealing with my pain, I just recently found a place that could allow me to express my hurts from my childhood abuse, while my wife can find just about anyone to listen and console her. As a man, it is difficult to find qualified, good, Christian men who want to listen and willing to help direct. I guess part of it is, my wife has no problem telling me to get over my childhood abuse - like it was a snap of the fingers, but her recovery of my abuse should be a life long struggle. I'm not patronizing her statement or her feelings, it is just I am trying to reconcile what I see as a double standard at times. Maybe I deserve it, probably do.

Every significant woman in my life hurt me, this led to a misogynistic lifestyle. I was not aware of it until last year. When presented with that, it felt like a huge slap in the face - I loved women - or so I thought. No, I loved sex. That was what my dad taught me. I realized, boy was I wrong about women. It was only then that I truly realized how wonderful my wife really was. I thought I loved her and respected her. Boy was I wrong. I realize that no one deserved to be treated like I treated her. I fully acknowledge the pain and abuse I laid done. I have repented and have worked hard to overcome.

Our last therapist did not provide a safe haven for either one of us and it created more hurt feelings. I had left him once and she talked me back into his office. Boy was that the wrong thing to do. We had several things going right, just went for some clean up and the wheels came rolling off. I start a new therapist today and I pray that she will be able to walk me through the  final stages of my therapy. Please don't get me wrong, I know I will always be under attack from my formal training as a monster from my parents. It is why I am desperately trying to rid myself of that inner child who likes to overpower anyone he deems a threat. I tried to kill myself as a preteen, didn't work - obviously. Anyway, after the attempt - my parents sought no help - just blamed me for being a rotten piece of *$%. That was the child that resided in me until today. I am painfully aware of my actions and take responsibility for them. I in no way want anyone here to believe that I need sympathy for my actions towards my wife or children.   

I am concerned about my feelings, I never had any until I took them away from my parents. Wish desperately I had better role models - but didn't. This is and has been a painful experience for all concerned. Anyway - I headed to my new T now.

Again thanks Jac - I really do greatly appreciate your comments and concerns. Anything and I mean anything - Please feel free to say.

[stormywthr]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you squeeze an orange, orange juice comes out - because that's what's inside. When you are squeezed, when someone presses your buttons if what comes out is blame, intolerance, bitterness don't accuse that person - that's what's inside of you
W. Dyer

That is so true.

Hounded, thank you for your input to my post.  You seem to be an honest person trying to make changes and you are correct, both persons must be held accountable.  It takes two to tango, but if one person is trying to do all the dancing and the other is only stepping on feet, how uch fun can the dance be.  In order to orchestrate the dance both parties must be held accountable for the change, one must acknowledge that change has occured.  What changes has she made to acknowledge your hard work?

I hope your new therapist can work with you and help you to put things in perspective.

It takes a real man to admit that things are wrong and need change.

I don't ever believe that I have forgivin my family for what they have put me through.  I had to reflect back for myself and find who I was before all the turmoil had occured as a child.   This is where I wanted to be, was a good and kind and gentler person before the turmoil and abuses. How naive things can be in a child's mind, but isn't it the children who are corrupted and the naivity spoiled.  Only we can change that pattern. It's good to see that you have been trying to correct this in your children and step child.

Your wife having been abused before, she must love you to want things to work, but the old saying that you hurt the ones you love the most, you have learned something from her and should value that.  You have the ability to grow together and make things better.  Communication is crucial.  You have apparently been able to listen and are trying to improve all things, I commend you for that, it has got to be difficult for you as well as for her.

I hope someday the two of you will be able to dance together again.  If not, at least you can say you got to dance with someone you love.

[Plucky]

Quote
Maybe I am stupid, but I would like to think that hounded is actually trying to get better.

It's interesting to see that so many people here are willing to embrace Hounded's post with open arms and without a word of question.  I actually think it is WISE to regard an abusive (or formerly abusive person's) claim of reform with suspicion.

Jac,
I imagine that your very negative experience with your ex caused you to post this little slap in the face.  I can see from your subsequent posts that you have changed your mind -

It's touching and inspiring to converse with a man who is on the road towards healing.

So I will extend the benefit of the doubt to you, as I did to hounded.

Plucky