When will the weather clear?

[stormywthr]

Thanks for the support from the two of you that have responded.

A brief synopsis:

Married for two years, he is 44 and an accomplished athlete with an ego that is overinflated even since he hasn't done much in the past years.  He blames me for clipping his wings and being a ball and chain when all I have ever done is encourage him to find or do something that he would like to concentrate on.  He has placed us in debt but he somehow manages to pay the bills but of course with the help of his wealthy parents that encourage him to not work when there is life to be lived and things to see and do.  Gifts of money continually bail us out of our predicament and then I am berated for my working and not contributing which is all I have ever done. 

He has spent practically every penny that I have made and I now struggle to find my goals within my job that are attainable due to the fact that he has depleted my monies.  I was wrong for maintaining a life insurance policy that I had since I was an infant and wrong for continuing my IRA contribution for my business and myself and also wrong for maintaining a savings account.  I have had to fight to maintain all of these things.

My curiosity got the best of me and I contacted some of his friends and found out that he has treated dogs better than the women he has been with and forced two of them to psychotherapy insisting that they are the ones with the problems.  I believe he is the one with the problems.

His parents are of German decent and they are very anal in their ways.  Spotless home, simple life but bank accounts that bail out their children. 

I have been demeaned for my thoughts and wishes and am not even allowed to do the dishes and laundry the way that I choose.  He thinks that he can do it all better than me.  I am to the point that I just let him and I get on with my day.  The constant little battles that he says I struggle with I believe are his own struggles.  The OCD and ADHD are overwhelming.  His constant need for affection and appreciation I cannot give when my own needs are not being met. 

I was abused by my brother and my father supported him and his lies.(Both alcoholics and woman abusers)My parents were divorced when I was two so I did not see the violence but my brother did.  My mother didn't know the extent of it until I was older and it was two late.  I pulled myself up by the boot straps and had to start over again and again.  My mother still is not there for me to this day.

I am afraid to go home tonight as I am unaware of the verbal abuse that will occur and the comments that cut so deep I feel as if I am bleeding out the second I walk in the door.

We attend counseling in the morning tomorrow.  The rollercoaster ride continues, when will the ride stop.  Do the N ever learn empathy for others?  Do they ever come around to reality?  I think that he believes that life is a fairy tale and there is always a happy ending as long as he is narrating the story.

Any input would be of great help.

[pennyplant]

Hi Stormywthr,

My experience with Ns comes from family of origin and workplace situations, not my spouse.  But the ones I do know don't seem to change much at all.  They use you up and then move on.  I have seen occasional twinges of guilty feelings from them.  But usually they then go on to do something mean or odd to cover that up.  My Ns seem to be creatures of habit doing and saying the same things over and over again like some kind of ritual.  Personally I do better when I don't have to spend time with them.  But that is not always so easy to accomplish!  If you thought at first that this person was normal and loving and you let yourself love them, well, it takes a long time for the new knowledge to replace your previous belief.  Especially since the idea that a human being could let you love them while at the same not letting him or herself love you.... well, that boggles the mind of the average person.  It hurts, too.  But that is pretty much what the situation is with Ns.  Pretty sad on so many levels.

There's lots to read about and learn here.  I've been here since February and it has made a huge difference in my life.  It has helped me to learn, or start to learn, to detach from my Ns.  This place has helped me to become stronger inside and less vulnerable to N-type people.  Sort of nip it in the bud.  Welcome, Stormywthr.

Pennyplant

[gratitude28]

(((((((((((((((((((((((Weather))))))))))))))))))))))))

You sound like an AMAZING person. You made it through a terrible childhood and have held on to your senses through this ill match you made. A huge congratulations on keeping money... it gives you many more chioces now.

My experience has not been with men, so I cannot answer maybe as well as you would like, but I will ask some questions...

Do you love him?
Why did you marry him? Was it maybe because of the childhood situation you lived through? You didn't exactly have good male role models...
Does he bring anything into the marriage?

It doesn't sound like there is much in this for you.After counseling, if there is no hope, I think it might be time to get your ducks in a row and move on... (and spend some time knowing and loving yourself for a bit before you decide who will get to share your life !!!)
Lots of love,
Beth

[Brigid]

Welcome Stormywthr,
I was married and now divorced from 2 n men, and had an n father as well (now dead).  I wish I could tell you there was hope for change, but the chances are slim at best.  Only very long and intense therapy holds any promise and most of them never feel the need or accept that they have a problem.  It is not that they truly love themselves, but really that they loathe themselves so much that they cannot look within and heal the damage which caused the narcisissm to appear in the first place. 

I strongly agree that the best thing you can do for yourself is to go to individual counselling.  It will really help to make sense of all the crazy-making going on around you.  My therapist was my savior during that most difficult time of my life and I tribute him with helping me to understand what I was dealing with in the man I was married to and how my FOO had contributed to my making such poor choices for partners. 

Are there any children involved?  I have 2 children with my second ex, so I do need to maintain minimal contact with him for their sakes, but they are young adults now and can figure out the relationship they will have with him.

It is wonderful that you have maintained your own financial security.  I was a stay-at-home mom for 20 years when my ex suddenly left the home 3+ years ago and I began to discover all the lies and secrets.  I also strongly recommend you consider contacting a good divorce attorney and start keeping track of anything pertaining to finances, property ownership, investments, insurance, etc.  Be prepared to investigate him if necessary as they are very good at hiding and lying about their activities and behaviors.  I was able to get a good settlement for myself and the children by working with a very good attorney who hired a forensic accountant to investigate his business.

You are right about the whole experience being a roller coaster.  But you need to protect yourself and children if there are any.  It is a long and painful journey, but you can find light at the end of the tunnel by finding the strength within.  You've obviously needed to do that before, so you can do it again, but hopefully with some help.  I wish you well.

Hugs,

Brigid

[WRITE]

Hi S/W

comments that cut so deep I feel as if I am bleeding out the second I walk in the door.

that is so well put, and a lot of people here will recognise it.

Do the N ever learn empathy for others?  Do they ever come around to reality?  I think that he believes that life is a fairy tale and there is always a happy ending as long as he is narrating the story.

and this. You are entirely right- someone who is so insecure about themself they have to be the storyteller and they believe everything they say too...

Do they learn empathy? Depends how bad the Nism is, whether they will go into therapy & if that therapist is competent to challenge and support Nism, whether he can break the pattern of relating to you.

The fact is he's not meeting your needs right now.

I have never thought couple counselling much use unless the couple have individual counselling first or also.

How committed are you to stay in this verbally abusive relationship?

I left mine, ex went to therapy which has helped us maintain a relationship for parenting, but I've filed for divorce three years later, our marriage is over ( if it ever started! )

Good luck and I am sure you'll find loads of love and support here.

[sea storm2]

You have really come to the right place in order to find out what the source of your feeling of chaos and despair is.  You laid it out very clearly. The reason that you can tolerate your partners lacerating you continually is that you learned very early to accept this kind of abuse from your parents. You get hard wired as a child and these pathways have a familiar feel to them.
Your partner could be a narcissist and the best site I have found to learn about this in depth is Malignant Narcissist. If someone does not love you back you are in trouble if you don't leave. Be assured that history repeats itself and then detiorates. If the relationship is slowly destroying you, GET OUT. Crawl if you have to. Endure the pain.
I stayed for four years and finally my health went, my concentration went, my confidence went and I couldn't work. I knew I was under a lot of stress with the constant put downs and the denigration but not until I really collapsed did I realize that I wasn't capable of enduring another minute. Set boundaries with this person. See what happens. Even a small boundary. Observe. It becomes clearer as you take action.
Keep writing and there is lots of support for you here.

[mudpuppy]

Do the N ever learn empathy for others?

The short, and IMO, most accurate answer is NO.

Do they ever come around to reality?

See above.

The constant little battles that he says I struggle with I believe are his own struggles.

Projection is their stock in trade. If you know you're not crazy but you have someone who routinely tells you that you are you can pretty well rest assured they've got squirrels where their brains are supposed to be.

mud

[WRITE]

Hey mudpuppy, how's it going?

I wanted to ask you about this before, you don't believe any change is possible with personality disorder?

[mudpuppy]

you don't believe any change is possible with personality disorder?

Hi write,

I'm glad you made the distinction between a true personality disorder and mere personality traits.

The short answer is no I don't think change is possible.
However the long answer is, in those rare instances where someone has been made self aware enough, I believe they can modify their behavior somewhat. Usually not significantly and it is only behavior modification, not true change of the underlying pathology. If they are able to change significantly then its an open question whether they had a true disorer to begin with.
Far more common of course are those who are incapable of modifying their behavior any more than is necessary to stay out of jail or the morgue, although even those who cannot so restrain themselves outnumber those who can actually change their behavior enough to make it possible to live with them.
And the most common of all are undoubtedly those who feign repentance and pretend to change as a means to sucker their victims back for another round of bloodletting.

That said, I do believe in miracles, but find them to be few and far between.

mud

[mudpuppy]

Hi jac,

My wife just had her second round of Taxol yesterday. Seems to be tolerating it better than the first round. Her ca 27 29 tumor marker has gone from over 400 at the start of chemo to 100 as of a little over a week ago. Normal is 38 or less. She has ten more Taxol treatments to go and then hormone therapy.
Her bone pain has pretty much resolved. Her biggest problem for now is anemia caused by the chemo; getting close to transfusion territory.

I'm hopeful, but cancer is nothing if not relentless.

mud

[stormywthr]

So,

We went to the counselor's, not sure how well the session went.  Of course everything that he said he wanted has nothing to do with sharing a relationship.  It was all about him and what he needs to contradict me and my needs.  He truely doesn't understand what it is about.  It being a relationship.

I question myself constantly as to whether or not to stay in this relationship.  We have no children.  There will never be any because he took care of that situation on his end.  Selfish to the bone. 

I have only started to save my monies.  I am unsure as to how much I will need to move forward.  I continue to try and struggle to save something that I am unsure that he wants to save.

Change has to happen on both sides, I feel as if I am the only one that has changed and in the process of this I have given up a part of myself.  He says he is a man of his word, that he wouldn't let me lose my individuality, that he would be there for me in my time of need, support me in my endeavors, the list goes on and on.... He has RENIGGED!! 

We both have come from completely different upbringings, there in lies the rub.  His world is painted with perfectionism (which wasn't so perfect) so therefore he projects failure toward me and my torrent life as a child and young adult for which I had no control.

My needs he continually avoids but yet expects his to be met constantly.  Viscous cycle of selfishness.  Am I selfish for my needs?  I believe I am just trying to communicate, problem solve to find a common ground so that things may be better.  Is this a problem for me?  While he constantly avoids all things that may be problems because his perfect world is not so perfect.

Thank you all for you comments, feel free to interject.

[hounded]

Hi Stomry,

First let me say how sorry I am about your situation. I so relate to your husbands insanity that I can only truly profess that you should run to the nearest attorney before the only way you can is by crawling.

As a man who has seen these types of men and has been ONE, the only way change will occur is if what they lose is more important than what they have. If you are the center of his universe - you may have an opportunity to salvage your relationship (MAY). Because IF he realizes that you are willing to leave, the Denial will attack him with a vengeance and his attacks on you will increase. If he DOESN"T care then you are better today leaving than 5 years when you are weaker and more alone.

Explanation:

IF he cares he will WANT to change. This has to be more than lip service to you. It will require INTENSE therapy and numerous discussions of the unhealthy behavior he has with his parents. It will also require him separating from his mom and dad's financial teet! The real question is does he value you more than the financial support he gets from his parents. Probably not - Sounds like a playboy. Real JOCKS enjoy such a false sense of being so early on that the ego just over rides all good choices. It seems that because a man is physically capable of performing a particular physical feat well that their BRAINS must somehow be better too. Unfortunately, their BRAIN is the last thing they work out. Ever notice the real successful athletes don't really look like athletes. Their intelligent, well mannered business people. The JOCKS are about the size of their penis, how many beautiful women can touch it, and how many notches they can put on their belt.

Is this really going to happen? His mom and dad have created there own bailing station and will presumably throw you under the bus before they take any blame themselves. I consider this there own buy off for their sins against their son. Instead on acknowledging their faults they will continue to bail him out to prevent ownership of problems. This most likely will not change - I'm sorry.

If he does not hold you as the center of his universe - you have no hope of ever finding happiness with this man. All you can do is find your happy place and hold on for dear life.   He has already put two former "girlfriends" in therapy. Are you just like them? Did you ask follow up questions about who they were and if their were any similarities. Also, if your H's friends are willing to give you the dirt, it probably means they are trying to help you without pissing of their friend.

Were you a PRIZE find? I don't mean this mean, but does he count you as a possession, a conquered land? Does he enjoy show boating you about like your the Queen of his Domain? If you can honestly answer yes to this questions, Do you feel like he will still hold you as a Queen when you are tired, withered, and older? Are the best years ahead or behind - PHYSICALLY? I ask these questions because your man sounds very vain? With vanity - he needs a Queen to make him look good. It is about image - RIGHT?


My situation:

I have discovered over the last couple of days that both of my parents were "N's" from hell. I had many characteristics of both, but generally disliked both for their behavior. I was in denial about actually having these tendencies. With that said.

I have or had enough male friends who are screwed up - just like the situation your discussing -  ToHnestly say that you have a much better chance of restarting your life on your own than staying with the one you have.

If you've read my post - I am trying desperately to keep my wife from leaving me, but acknowledge she has every right to based upon my past abuses and current mistreatments - I don't want to believe what I do today is abuse - She says that it is, so I need to go with her on this - It is her feelings that are much more important than mine right now. IF YOUR HUSBAND CAN THINK OF YOU LONG ENOUGH TO MEASURE THE CONSEQUENCES WITHOUT YOU AND IS WILLING TO THROW EVERYTHING OUT EXCEPT YOU FOR YOUR HAPPINESS AND HIS, THEN - JUST MAYBE- YOU HAVE A CHANCE.

I am firm believer that God does not want us to divorce, but I also believe that if your not walking with God and you do not plan to walk with God, God allows the one trying to be righteous to leave. We all deserve happiness - even the "N's", we should all be sympathetic to all who hurt and been hurt, but we don't need to just brush the abuses away.

Please find a good attorney and meet with him, her, or it. Whichever is the best one. Make sure you get a good one. You don't have to hire him, you just need to find out your rights. Your husband has no money, will have no money, except his parents, and they too will bail him out of this. If your alone, you need to look for security in all the right places today. Your husband will allow you to stay as long as you provide some comfort, verbal punching bags do provide good comfort - Don't they?. Once you begin to hold him accountable for his actions and he does not like it, he will not stand for it, and your life will quickly move towrds a nasty divorce situation. It will be the only thing he can do for survival. More than likely he will vain love and be plotting your downfall with his parents. They will stand united behind him - not you. You will be the one who looks like the evil one. So you need to be prepared NOW.

Sorry this is long winded. Also, this is only my opinion and should not be followed just because I'm typing it. I will pray for you and hope that you can begin to have some peace moving forward. And Remember - NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENED IN YOUR LIFE - YOU ARE WORTHY! AND YOU DESERVE HAPPINESS!

hounded

[condeezi]

dear stormyweather - i am posting a reply because i too would like some advice. was in a marriage with an N, then a relationship for 4 years. i feel traumatized by it. the marriage wasn't as bad, because i had detached myself from it emotionally for a long time prior to divorcing him. but the damage i feel from my ex-bf's "problems" continue to haunt me. i know now that i wasn't at fault, and everyone kept telling me that they couldn't believe at the things i put up with. the hardest thing is the realization that he didn't really care about me at all, that he could walk away and not look back. that he has found someone else (actually on his second)that again, again, the person who said they loved me and whom i really loved, didn't really care about me at all. that he lied while we were together to make himself look better, that he lied since our breakup. that things have happened that merited a call if he cared.  it has been nearly impossible to get past this, to start to feel like i am not sleepwalking. i avoid places i might run into him, especially since he has someone new. he has made it a point to rub it in my face. i want to get over this - am even considering a move to another city.

[stormywthr]

Hounded - let me say that I feel that everything that you have stated seems to feel the way it really is for my jock H.  I feel like a trophy that he gets to walk around showing off.  He has had I don't know how many women prior to me, but as to what his friends tell me, it was quite a few all at the same time.  I was one of them.  Little did I know until after the fact.  Trust, and he wonders why I don't trust him. I have never told him that as it would start a fight again, something that we cannot talk about as it would point out his inadequacies as a person.

As to the monies, he will never separate himself from their pocketbook.  It is alway from his mother, poor W, here is some $, that will make it better as he snatches it out from underneath me to spend at his will.

As to my leaving, that is my fear that he will attack me further and leave me with nothing to fend for myself.  I am self employed and he can turn my career upsidedown and trash me as a therapist so I am holding on as long as i can and doing what I think is right for now.  If he doesn't wish to change to make things better then the time bided by my saving $'s has only helped my situation.

Condeezi - start a post of your own and we can talk, I have to get to client right now but would be willing to input

[Hopalong]

PennyP,

I think this is the kernel:

Especially since the idea that a human being could let you love them while at the same not letting him or herself love you.... well, that boggles the mind of the average person.  It hurts, too.

IMO, you've just done the Readers Digest version of what the N-aftershock is about. A huge service.

thanks,
Hops