Author Topic: When do you reach out after a fight? (was advice for middle-age relationships)  (Read 4655 times)

Dawning

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Hello everyone. 
Happy 2006 - what's left of it... :o
I haven't posted in awhile and my prayers are to all of you on the board working through living with/dealing with N's.

I've dealt with my whole family - N's mostly - in creative ways over the past two years...with *your* help.  I feel strength as I've never felt it before and I am not as sensitive or as easily prone to feeling sorry for myself, crying or succumbing to massive acute depression.  I think the meds have helped too - to a degree.

As things progress, I'm finding that the big issue in my life has to do with being clueless as to how to deal with damage-control (or not) when a fight erupts in a relationship - I'm talking about the intimate kind of relationship where sex and touching are involved.   I'm not sure if this is the proper forum to discuss these things in detail.  However, as a recovering ACON, I've lots of questions and very much welcome feedback.  Does anyone know a good forum?

Thanks.  And sorry for not participating in the forum this year.  I'm still around though, still alive and sending my love to you all.

Dawning.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 03:52:38 AM by Dawning »
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Hopalong

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Re: A place to receive advice about sexual relationships in middle-age
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2006, 11:51:35 PM »
Well celibate old me isn't going to be much help, but I wouldn't be offended.
I'm sure you can ask your questions here. Intimacy and sex are part of the equation.
Maybe if people get uncomfortable, they could just skip over this thread, and not read it.
That would probably be the best solution.

Are you talking about "make-up sex"?
I hope you'll find wise advice here.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Dawning

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Re: A place to receive advice about sexual relationships in middle-age
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2006, 02:38:17 AM »
Quote
Are you talking about "make-up sex"?

Thanks, Hops.  By make-up sex, I am thinking that it has to do with using sex to solve intimacy issues but, actually, I've never heard the term.  What does it mean?

I am frustrated now.  I have so many voices inside my head.  The loudest one is saying, "don't dance this dance with him, it will just make your life worse."  The other, almost - if not just as loud voice is saying - "look...you just got an email from him today and that means he is reaching out even if it was just one sentence...the least you could do is reach out to him but....but...but...that would mean dancing that god-awful dance.  I want to be nice, kind, affectionate and loving but I am really doubting if it is in my best interest to do so.  Eventually, we will be living closer to each other and I want to maintain friendly relations but it has only been 4 days since he sent an email that shocked me in its angry tone and basically told me that *he* would call *me.*  He has his valid points to be sure (we are often in completely different moods when we talk on the phone because of the 17 hour time difference) but this is what is really hard to write:  I am afraid of being the object of someone's experiment with emotional vivesection.  :shock:  I'm sorry if that sounds too dramatic.  I recall him telling me once that there was an "experimental" element to this relationship.  I guess I just don't want to experiment anymore.  I've told him that but then he tells me that I misunderstood what he meant when he used the word "experiment" but it just doesn't get any better.  He feels misunderstood and sulks and I feel like I am an idiot cause I don't *get it*.

Sorry for rambling.  I'll just go ahead and post this...I have to get back to work.

Love,
Dawning.


« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 03:03:03 AM by Dawning »
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pennyplant

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Re: A place to receive advice about sexual relationships in middle-age
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2006, 03:17:43 AM »
Hi Dawning,

We have never met as I came to the forum this year in February.  But I must answer your post as I feel that you might be going into a dangerous area here.  This person you are considering being intimate with does not have your best interests at heart.  Your doubts seem valid to me.  So, my advice, with only knowing just the information you have posted in this thread, is that this person doesn't belong in your life.  It is more than the 17 hour time difference.  He's got "issues".  He is not very far along the learning curve when it comes to relationships.  I just think you might be beyond hurt if you go along with him.

What would you get out of this?  How would you benefit?  You are important to this equation too.

Pennyplant
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

Brigid

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Welcome back Dawning,
I admit to being a little confused about what help you are looking for. 

Even though I didn't realize it for 22 years, my xnh used sex as his source of control in our relationship.  In our case, he withheld it from me by giving all kinds of excuses as to why he wasn't in the mood--too tired, too stressed, his meds reduced his libido, he was getting older (this was in his 30's), etc., etc.  What I finally found out after he left me for another woman was that he was very interested in sex, but only when it involved pornography and masturbation.  There are others here who have had many different kinds of negative experiences regarding sex and n personalities.

I am now in a healthy relationship where intimacy is not used as a tool or bartering chip.  It is a very natural and loving expression of how deeply we care about each other (also a very frequent expression of that love  8)). 

If the man in your relationship is using sex to either pull you in or hold you there, that is not healthy or loving.  Please examine all aspects of your relationship and your role to determine if it is working for you or if you are the only one doing the giving, caring, loving and maybe rescuing.

Brigid


Hopalong

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Hi Dawning,
Glad you're feeling strong...is blunt okay?

There might be another way to look at the fight and the threatening things he says to you about "experiments".
(This fight is an opportunity for me to decide I don't want to be in this relationship any more....)

"Dear X,
You're right, I'm not understanding you. Our recent conflict has helped me realize that I'm not the right person for you, nor you for me. Please don't call or email again. I am not willing to be in this relationship any longer."

Dawning, my last Nbf was subtly sadistic, controlling, experimental, and witholding with me. If I could convince you, I would do all in my power: You don't need this kind of man. Whatever early learning convinced you to plead for the attention of someone with a cruel streak, you can unlearn that.

Your life and your time are precious. Spend them in ways that nourish and heal and support you. This man will not do that.

I'll swear it on a stack of anything you like.

Hops

"Make-up" sex is simply when people fight or hurt each other and then have sex to reconcile, which makes it dramatic and intense. Took me a long time to recognize that that sort of passion was in fact not a turn-on. I began to see it as a sick cycle, and I believe it was.
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

penelope

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hi dawning,

Something that has helped me is to separate emotional intimacy from sex, which are not even close to being the same thing.  When I speak of intimacy, I'm always talking about emotional intimacy - wanting to understand the other person, seeking the acceptance that comes from expressing oneself, and having the other accept us as we are.

If all that is working, the sex seems to follow, in my experience.  I hope you discover this answer in your heart.  That you seem confused and hurt is a sign that something's amiss.  I'm glad you're reaching out for help here.  Please keep working though this painful experience to find your answer.  It may be painful too, but relief eventually comes.

love,
bean

Dawning

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Good morning! 

Thanks for those replies.  Sorry for the confusion about the sexual aspect.  The issues brought up concering power and sex have not come up that much because we live very far away from each other and have been having a long-distance relationship.  What I meant in the opening post was just that I am in a relationship that is, more or less, at the semi-beginning stages and that it is a sexual one (ie, not problems with a relative N, friend N, etc).  Again, sorry for the confusion. 

I am not sure this guy has full blown out Nism.  In fact, I am not sure of anything but that I have me (and this board and a handful of caring friends).  It is true that I have issues of trust but consider the fact that for much of my life I had no positive relationships and, when I changed myself, the positive relationships started appearing; that was a little over 2 years ago.  However, the one glitch seems to be that - having been abused by my father (pre age 4), moved away from him w/out getting to say goodbye and then being completely neglected by him for the rest of my life and that my mother never remarried but seems to have done one of those *covert incest* things in addition to her Nism - well....I doubt myself alot when a fight erupts in a relationship.  I am getting better but this guy...whoa!  I can't tell how he feels.   I have sensed a double standard for awhile now.  What does he mean when he says, "your past important?  go find some other tolerant fool." in his last letter.  Is he right?  Am I just acting out my pain.  Well, sometimes.  But I can guarantee you that I am not doing it everyday.  Maybe once or twice a month, I may get down about something (as he does....as we all do.... :x)  Why can't he see that?

There is very little to do with sex and power in this situation.  I just feel like I am being emotionally experimented upon.  When things go his way, he is all smiles and content.  When things don't go his way, he lashes out - sometimes with quite angry words.

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What would you get out of this?  How would you benefit?  You are important to this equation too.
Well, Pennyplant, I would get a family.  I am 42 now w/no children and no family.  He has an educated mother and father.  A sister and brother in law who own their own home and he has a pre-teen little boy who I get along well with.  I also got on well with the little boy's mother and her husband.  I benefit by feeling that, when things are going right between us, that I am not that slow-running gazelle on the serengeti that gets eaten up by the lion; that I have a place and I am protected and aided from the continual abuse that my mother attempts to dish out.  And that I am needed; that I have a place...Oh, heavens...it is starting to feel like such a farce.   :(  :o

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When I speak of intimacy, I'm always talking about emotional intimacy - wanting to understand the other person, seeking the acceptance that comes from expressing oneself, and having the other accept us as we are.
Yes, penelope...I understand intuitively. 

After receiving his shocking email, I wrote one back....I feel my reply had grace, self-respect and an acknowledgement that I am not perfect nor are my expressions...and nor are his as well.

Yesterday his email said, "I hope you are okay." 
Is that a question or is he playing games with me or is he genuinely concerned or is he trying to pull me down or is he saying the relationship is over?  I don't know.  I don't expect anyone here to know either...just thanks for listening and offering any feedback.  One friend here said, based on what I've said, that he feels upstaged.  What does that mean (in  non-theatrical terms) and why is it so threatening? 

Honestly, I feel like replying back to him, "why wouldn't I be okay?"  Is there something wrong with me (or you, or you or him or her or...) that is so inherently different from the rest of humanity?  I really don't think so.













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Hopalong

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Dawning, hon...

You wouldn't be okay because

Quote
"your past important?  go find some other tolerant fool."


is a cruel, insensitive, unkind and mean thing to say. It should HURT if someone you're close to speaks to you with such contempt.

This is not registering with you because you were trained to think it's okay to have your heart violated in this way.

This is why, somehow, you were drawn to this particular man. Maybe this is where your liberation begins.

I think this is what you can learn.

After my first marriage I flung myself into another to escape my FOO and to escape being alone. It was worse than the first and I deeply regret it.

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Dawning

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Quote
After my first marriage I flung myself into another to escape my FOO and to escape being alone.

Hops, what is a FOO?

Thanks again for the replies.  Glad the board is up and running again.   

Love,
Dawning.
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Brigid

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Re: When do you reach out after a fight? (was advice for middle-age relationshi
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2006, 11:29:46 PM »
Dawning,

Quote
Hops, what is a FOO?

Family of Origin.

Brigid

penelope

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hi Dawning,

Have you thought about what if you didn't reply to anymore emails?  At this stage of the "game," there's too much (valuable!) stuff that might be lost in email. 

Mostly I was thinking, tone, empathy, intent, all that....

Or is it just terrifying to think you may have been duped by this guy?

From one who's had at least 4 or 5 "email" type long distance relationships that turned into disasters...so I may be projecting my own stuff here.  Just thought I'd better ask though.

At this point, if I ever had something important to say to someone - a lover, friend, boss, coworker, etc - that I would fear might be misinterpreted - I'd never say it in email.  I'd call.

hugs,
p bean

Dazed1

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Re: When do you reach out after a fight? (was advice for middle-age relationshi
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2006, 01:15:06 AM »
Hi Dawning,

I relate so much to your post.

I am around your age and I too have no children and really no family.

The email you discussed reminds me of a past relationship I had.  I saved my ex-boyfriend's emails because I thought they were good material if I ever decided to write 'Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe, Part II'.  In fact, your email sounds like something from my relationship with said XBF.

While I laughed at your image of a "slow-running gazelle on the Serengeti", I think that image may lie at the heart of your quandary.

I apologize if I'm being presumptuous, but I think you truly view yourself as a "slow-running gazelle on the Serengeti".  Deep inside, do you view yourself as being inferior and in a weak position?   Do you feel grateful for the crumbs that he throws at you?

You sound like a wonderful person with a lot to offer.  Please don't settle for crumbs.

Your discussion about what is the true meaning of his email and trying to discern the real meaning of the things he says:  yep, that was my relationship with the above referenced XBF.  Please forgive me for offering unsolicited advise, but having been through a similar relationship, I'd say get out now.  He will probably cause you more pain and leave you drained.

Please go with your loudest voice that says "don't dance this dance with him, it will just make your life worse."

Therapy has helped me immensely.  Having had about 1.5 years of therapy, I feel much stronger, clearer, have learned about boundaries and (hopefully) I will never again be in the type of relationship that I had with my XBF. 

In therapy, you can learn about boundaries so that you will know when someone is not treating you right and you can learn how to deal with disputes without feeling stepped on or stepping on someone else.

Please don't be hard on yourself.  IMHO, if you get rid of this guy and find the right therapist, you will no longer feel like "slow-running gazelle on the Serengeti".

All my best,
dazed




Dawning

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Quote
At this point, if I ever had something important to say to someone - a lover, friend, boss, coworker, etc - that I would fear might be misinterpreted - I'd never say it in email.  I'd call.

Precisely.  Makes sense to me.  I told him, however, in an email two things: 1)that if wanted to send me a harsh, verbally abusive email to at least write *Do Not Open At Work* in the subject line.   :o  Interesting also that he was starting to leave very, very long msgs on my answering machine until the message time ran out and was cut off so 2) I told him to stop doing that too.  He has done neither.  We had one phone call about two weekends ago (I called him and he called me back...twice as we mutually agreed) but nothing since then and we used to talk everyday.  Granted, I was calling the guy at all hours which was selfish of me so that is what I learned.  Not talking to him everyday is hard in some ways but getting easier in others.  I see where I have erred.  It is hard to tell is he sees where he has erred.  And each time I start thinking about what is going on in his mind, I get distracted from the moment - which is really important.

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Or is it just terrifying to think you may have been duped by this guy?

Yes.  If he is doing it consciously then...whoa!  Somehow, I think he is not.  But...something about this idea, pbean, gives me pause.  And one of those feelings in the heart that doesn' t feel so hot.

Hi Dazed1:  first,  I'm gonna get my hands on that book now.   :lol:  Thanks for the (indirect?) recommendation. 

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Deep inside, do you view yourself as being inferior and in a weak position?

No, I'm afraid not (*unless* I feel picked on by a group).  But I do feel that I am getting older and can't run (away...oh gawd...the truth light is flashing) as fast as I used to.  So my natural instinct is to look for a group where we stick together.  Usually, that's the family, right?  But, in my FOO, no one stuck together and they are not people I would even consider turning to.  I also might add that things may get better when I move to the only country I can claim citizenship (the usa) for I have been living in Asia on my own for 15+ years and Asia has very conservative family values so, while they may quarrel and bicker and be codependent as h*ll, they do appear to stick together.  Then, again, *he's* got that kind of family too.  I feel like the outsider.
   
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Do you feel grateful for the crumbs that he throws at you?
No, but I do feel like my existence is validated on some weird level (like an old program still running).   And maybe this is what is making him mad.  I feel so bad saying this but: maybe all he has to, or wants to throw, are crumbs.  And I will speculate no further (edited: except to say that it is here where the habitually pattern presents itself most alarmingly.)  Who is mirroring who?  Scary.

I've written several emails and haven't sent them.  Right now, I am aiming for damage control and some individual growing space.  It is SO sad when you can't communicate openly.  This seems to affect me SO much.  Its sadness seems to paralyze me sometimes into a state of curling up on my sofa listening to NPR everynight over and over again.

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Please don't settle for crumbs.
Thank you SO much for the reminder.   :)

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Therapy has helped me immensely.  Having had about 1.5 years of therapy, I feel much stronger, clearer, have learned about boundaries and (hopefully) I will never again be in the type of relationship that I had with my XBF. 

In therapy, you can learn about boundaries so that you will know when someone is not treating you right and you can learn how to deal with disputes without feeling stepped on or stepping on someone else.

Yes, therapy.  I was in it from 1999-2003 with the same woman once a week.  It was some members of this board who helped me wean myself from her "moribund" approach.  The next guy was a nutcase who was trigger happy with the meds.  One doesn't have a lot to pick from in western psychotherapy where I am at.  To tell the truth, I am a little burned out on psycho-therapy.  Of course, it is an option and when it works and you've found a good one, hoorah-hoorah.  So, hoorah to you and others with a good therapist.   :D

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Please don't be hard on yourself.

Thank you.  More than several people  have told me this.  Except, of course, my mother who seems to be sensing something is up between he and I and is starting to play her little games.  Lovely (rolling eyes).  I don't know what the next days or weeks will bring but, having to fend off her Nism, is one big pain the a*se.  :x  How can someone delight so much in another's sadness?  Or even their wordless "feeling" of sadness...  Never mind, not worth my precious time and energy. 

Finally,  (((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))  thanks for replying.

I am sorry if I sound glib or acerbic right now.  Frankly, I am just now becoming aware of this voice.  It feels like a new way for me to deal with this acute pain deep inside.  Writing it out (even if all of it doesn't make sense) and getting feedback is a big help as I am quite sure everyone on this board knows.  I do appreciate it. 

 :x And, while I am at it, I might add that this man (my age)  is still financially dependent on his parents (a little jealousy there from me), has had no stable employment or housing for as long as I have known him, can be incredibly romantic *and*, believe it or not, helpful, blows up around others (not just me) occassionally and seems to be okay with it in the long run.  This is the part I do not get.  So help me, I do not get it.

Much warmth and care (((((((((to all)))))))),  :)
Dawning.













« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 04:46:08 AM by Dawning »
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Hopalong

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Hi Dawning...

What a loving post. I like your voice.

I think "romantic" is a key thing to examine. I think that's a sickly syrup we all were fed while hypnotised by something on a TV or movie screen, with Fabio reading a bodice-ripper to us in one ear and ersatz diamonds being poured gently over our palms.

Bodice-rippers always end just as the bodice is ripped and long before someone has terrible morning breath or a bill is overdue or the baby's sick.

Diamonds are cold stones from hot places with slave labor.

I think once you deconstruct "romance = love" you'll be okay.

I see nothing wrong with romantic gestures, I enjoy them too...but I think Fabio is a mesmerist and isn't telling me healthy things. So I tickle him on his fabulous pecs and try to snap out of it.

I do believe love is real, though, dear Dawning. I think it has more to do with honest hands and consistency, though.

Hugs,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."