Author Topic: Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people  (Read 3730 times)

reallyME

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Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people
« on: November 28, 2006, 08:30:47 AM »
As I read the posts on this board day after day, the one thing that keeps coming back to me is "Laura, these N people are NOT NORMAL, so why is everyone soooooooooo surprised when they say the cutting things they say and do the evil, cruel, punishing things they do?"

Do you all realize that some mental disorders can be viewed by heat imaging...in these images, you can actually SEE a difference in the brian of the non-normal human being.  Are people expecting someone with abnormal mindsets, to treat them in a way that someone who is normal would?

I think I'm to the point of wanting to just say, "Ok, you had a miserable childhood.  me too....so why do you want to keep reliving the pain over and over again, well into your adult years, when YOU DO NOT HAVE TO?"  I wonder sometimes if people who choose to stay in abusive situations, do not have a desire to "self-abuse" and maybe even a "death-wish."  Someone with a sense of healthy self-worth, self-esteem, will NOT stay with a toxic, crazymaking person willingly.  That would be the thing to work on...not "I need to get along with this N in my life, so maybe someday they will be able to love me the way I always needed...."  but rather "I need to go to the ends of the earth to find out WHO THE HECK IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AM and WHY I KEEP SUBMITTING TO THIS MENTAL, EMOTIONAL TORTURE...what makes me keep COMIN BACK FOR MORE, WHY DO I ATTRACT THESE TYPES OF PEOPLE?  WHAT DO I BELIEVE ABOUT MYSELF?  DO I WANT TO REMAIN THIS WAY THE REST OF MY DAYS ON EARTH....

Cause honestly, if you answer one of those self-questions "yes I go back to N because I DESERVE HER TORMENT" then, my opinion is, that since N doesn't seem to want the help anyway, YOU need to work on helping YOU.  It is time to learn some cognitive change in your thinking processes.  It is time to LET THE N GO FROM YOUR LIFE, at least for a SEASON, until you are able to stand against her/his darts, and end up STILL STANDING after the last one hits ya.  If you cannot do this ever in your life, then that is the guage that is set as far as continuing contact...I don't care if N is one you call MOTHER, FATHER, BROTHER, SISTER, PASTOR, TEACHER...if you are being abused in ANY way, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for staying in that situation. period.

I guess one might say this is me giving a WAKE UP AND FACE REALITY call to people.

When I first started counseling cwings, I told her this:  C, you need to FORGET THAT THIS WOMAN IN YOUR LIFE IS YOUR MOTHER.  SEE HER AS JUST ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.  Now, would you let a stranger or even a friend do to you and say to you what THIS WOMAN DID AND IS?  Of course, C said "no."  Welllllllllllllllllll, hmmmmmmmmmmmm, and  you let this other human treat you this way WHY????  Her response "she's my MOM"  My response "STOP SEEING HER THAT WAY!  When she makes those digs and guilt trips, she STOPS ACTING LIKE ANY TYPE OF PARENT FIGURE.  AT THAT POINT SHE BECOMES MANIPULATOR, CONTROLLER...and you are to see her that way and RESPOND (not react) to her, as you would to ANY PERSON trying to manipulate or control you.

Just because someone gave birth to you, it does NOT make them your MOTHER.   They were a birth accomplice, that's IT.  A MOTHER has a far DEEPER meaning than someone who pushed you into the world.  you only know this person as "mother" because that is what you were told to refer to her as....that does not mean that if you were horridly abused all your life by her, that she still is your mother. 

Now, it's up to you how you take what I just said, but it defnitely brings things back into some perspective in what you choose to do from now on.  Anyone can have a baby...that does NOT qualify them as a parent, mother, father.  A person you grew up with that tormented you and treated you horribly, just because you referred to them as sister or brother, does NOT MAKE THEM THAT.

That's how I see it and how I counsel.

~Laura

reallyME

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Re: Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2006, 08:32:34 AM »
correction to my last post where I said, "that does not mean she is still your mother"  what I meant to say was "that does not mean she was EVER a mother nor ever WILL be"  This person may well have been the only idea you knew of a "mother" so you adapted, but that does not make it so.  Hard to face, hard to grasp and stomach, but true

WRITE

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Re: Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2006, 09:57:42 AM »
Hi Laura

how are you doing with the holidays? Do you still run a restaurant?

I read one of your posts about thyroid, overactive thyroid mimics bipolar.

I've been taking synthroid for an underactive one lately! ( still not worked out what's going on with the swings, but the the gland empties out in times of extreme stress was one explanation...)

***

Re your above post I have been thinking a lot about these things lately, I don't really regret as much as I think I did.

My mother was definitely a troubled soul and an imperfect mother, but here I am all these years later an imperfect mother myself, so I can empathise.

And though I have left my N ex and moving further and further away from him and his manipulative or difficult side, I don't actually want to lose that side of myself which loves no matter what.

I just think I've had to learn to do it healthily- for me too.

Before I was clinging and dependent as much as he was controlling and abusive.

I hold it dear as a principle- never write anyone off. I'm only human so sometimes I despair, but I don't want to get to a place where I am motivated by hate or anger or indifference.

My mother didn't love me because no one ever loved her. She was a troubled soul who suffered herself in the end far more than she put others through.

I don't feel any anger to her now, and if she was still here I think I'm at a place where I could reach out to her and though I know I would most likely meet with the denial and defensiveness and she wouldn't want a real relationship...I now know I can make those with other people once I've made peace with myself.

It's a process I think, an unravelling.

I re-read this TS Eliot yesterday:

"We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time."


Hopalong

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Re: Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2006, 11:16:37 AM »
CWings,
I think with Laura and all the other people in your life who give you kindness, support and understanding, you are creating for yourself a sort of life mother.

I feel that way about my circle of loving people. No single one substitutes for the kind of motherlove I wished I had. But as I get older, I'm looking at them all together as a very ample source of love. So I really feel I'm mostly recovered from my mother's inability to love well.

She did what she knew how to do.

And luckily, I now have people in my life who give me moments of love and affection, and inside myself, I add it all up, and I feel loved.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

WRITE

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Re: Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2006, 06:42:28 PM »
Hmm, well in keeping with the rest of my week the computer crashed as I was about to hit send on a long post! Hope this works...

It's been quite a testing few days, culminating in today the really bizarre behaviour today of one of my colleagues: she turned up 5 minutes late for a concert this morning, so I didn't get to brief her on the fact there was no piano and she had to use a crappy keyboard- I had been racing around at the last minute trying to allocate that, then I was busy with other last minute things! Anyway she told her boss I had done it deliberately to make her look bad, this is a project I have worked hard on and I love the kids and seniors, it was hard to be attacked and called basically unprofessional but it was also so irrational I stayed calm.

The only point I really wanted to smack her was later when she started giving me advice about how I should relax more...after having poured out all this rabid vitriol; she even said I'd been mean to her with a bunch of flowers I got- the children presented me with 2 and someone said is one for her, I said oh the children gave it to me, yes, you have it and she heard something quite different, as though I was being nasty.

I didn't know whetehr to get her flowers because I always get a lot of gifts and praise and affection, and I wondered if she'd feel left out, but there was no one to help me set up for the second concert so I ended up doing that instead. Makes me wonder if she really hates me but she calmed down more when I told her boss I don't want a job working there which came up during trying to resolve things. That is none of my business, btw, I'm self-employed! Maybe she thought I was trying to get her job, one of the questions she asked was if they wanted to get rid of her! No wonder her behaviour has felt so sabotaging with me lately...

It's been a week of irritations:

Had to talk to my neighbours after they kept me awake for the third consequitive night; she didn't seem too receptive but I was also concerned because there were 2 small kids running around ( it was 3 am ) and she took a while to answer, I think she was sleeping and they are unsupervisied, which explains the noises. Spoke to the complex manager about that.

So I may need to move again ( just unpacked all the boxes! ) if it's an unpleasant situation. I really can't cope with being unhappy at home.

One of my guy friends asked me to go out, I wasn't surprised as we have been getting closer, but then he must have changed his mind because he invited mutual friends to join us, then must have changed his mind again because we ended up sitting separately from the group and chatting on our own. By the time he walked me back to my car I had no idea what was going on!

My computer broke so I have to check emails and use the web at my exes, interesting how at one time I would have been paranoid in case he checked what I'd been writing, now I don't care, I don't even think he does either.
But the back-up disc is missing in the recent move so a lot of admin to catch up if I can't recover the data from the old hard drive...

Called my doctor for an appointment, the administrator wouldn't give me one unless I told her the nature of the problem; I said I just need an ordinary consultation, she said she needed to know so I said I needed to get a new doctor then! I'll write a letter to the doctor in a minute see what's going on with them...he's a nice guy I can't believe he would authorise his staff to be rude to patients! Leaves me without a doctor again if we can't resolve it...

Interesting how therapeutic it is to write all this down knowing someone will read it- it's more therapeutic than just writing it in a journal for myself?

I now have people in my life who give me moments of love and affection, and inside myself, I add it all up, and I feel loved.

interesting point Hops, it is the adding it all up.

My life feels unsubstantial in love and support in places, but for once it's not sending me into a tailspin of old negative thoughts about being unloveable or lonely. I just keep doing what I need to and ploughing my way through the days, and trying to have some fun and spend good time with my son.

I just keep taking the crumbs here and there and I hope ( even if I am not entirely certain ) that things will pick up somewhere along the line.

I've got enough income, my health is okay, my ex and son are doing better, it's been a beautiful autumn.

How's everyone else doing?








reallyME

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Re: Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2006, 08:21:42 PM »
Yes Write, I still own/run the restaurant.  I'm doing much better now that my thyroid meds were increased and I started taking a good multivitamin

tremusan

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Re: Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2006, 12:26:32 AM »

Laura wrote:
**As I read the posts on this board day after day, the one thing that keeps coming back to me is "Laura, these N people are NOT NORMAL, so why is everyone soooooooooo surprised when they say the cutting things they say and do the evil, cruel, punishing things they do?"

Do you all realize that some mental disorders can be viewed by heat imaging...in these images, you can actually SEE a difference in the brian of the non-normal human being.  Are people expecting someone with abnormal mindsets, to treat them in a way that someone who is normal would?

I think I'm to the point of wanting to just say, "Ok, you had a miserable childhood.  me too....so why do you want to keep reliving the pain over and over again, well into your adult years, when YOU DO NOT HAVE TO?"  I wonder sometimes if people who choose to stay in abusive situations, do not have a desire to "self-abuse" and maybe even a "death-wish."  Someone with a sense of healthy self-worth, self-esteem, will NOT stay with a toxic, crazymaking person willingly.  That would be the thing to work on...not "I need to get along with this N in my life, so maybe someday they will be able to love me the way I always needed...."  but rather "I need to go to the ends of the earth to find out WHO THE HECK IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AM and WHY I KEEP SUBMITTING TO THIS MENTAL, EMOTIONAL TORTURE...what makes me keep COMIN BACK FOR MORE, WHY DO I ATTRACT THESE TYPES OF PEOPLE?  WHAT DO I BELIEVE ABOUT MYSELF?  DO I WANT TO REMAIN THIS WAY THE REST OF MY DAYS ON EARTH....

Cause honestly, if you answer one of those self-questions "yes I go back to N because I DESERVE HER TORMENT" then, my opinion is, that since N doesn't seem to want the help anyway, YOU need to work on helping YOU.  It is time to learn some cognitive change in your thinking processes.  It is time to LET THE N GO FROM YOUR LIFE, at least for a SEASON, until you are able to stand against her/his darts, and end up STILL STANDING after the last one hits ya.  If you cannot do this ever in your life, then that is the guage that is set as far as continuing contact...I don't care if N is one you call MOTHER, FATHER, BROTHER, SISTER, PASTOR, TEACHER...if you are being abused in ANY way, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for staying in that situation. period.

I guess one might say this is me giving a WAKE UP AND FACE REALITY call to people.

When I first started counseling cwings, I told her this:  C, you need to FORGET THAT THIS WOMAN IN YOUR LIFE IS YOUR MOTHER.  SEE HER AS JUST ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.  Now, would you let a stranger or even a friend do to you and say to you what THIS WOMAN DID AND IS?  Of course, C said "no."  Welllllllllllllllllll, hmmmmmmmmmmmm, and  you let this other human treat you this way WHY????  Her response "she's my MOM"  My response "STOP SEEING HER THAT WAY!  When she makes those digs and guilt trips, she STOPS ACTING LIKE ANY TYPE OF PARENT FIGURE.  AT THAT POINT SHE BECOMES MANIPULATOR, CONTROLLER...and you are to see her that way and RESPOND (not react) to her, as you would to ANY PERSON trying to manipulate or control you.

Just because someone gave birth to you, it does NOT make them your MOTHER.   They were a birth accomplice, that's IT.  A MOTHER has a far DEEPER meaning than someone who pushed you into the world.  you only know this person as "mother" because that is what you were told to refer to her as....that does not mean that if you were horridly abused all your life by her, that she still is your mother. 

Now, it's up to you how you take what I just said, but it defnitely brings things back into some perspective in what you choose to do from now on.  Anyone can have a baby...that does NOT qualify them as a parent, mother, father.  A person you grew up with that tormented you and treated you horribly, just because you referred to them as sister or brother, does NOT MAKE THEM THAT.

That's how I see it and how I counsel.

~Laura**

[TREMUSAN Writes:]
From my own experiences and opinions formed....  it's the hope that mommy will be the mommy we deserved...... and still desire on some level. Or the daddy or caregiver of whatever type involved in an unrealistic expectation issue.   We have little children inside of us raging or crying..... most certainly HOPING.  Not sure who's quote it is but.... "it's hope that kills us."  And I believe that. 

Giving up hope is so hard, so painful.... most of us can't do it.  Re experiencing the primal moments of our pain......and sinking into the depths of our sadness... then giving up hope of ever receiving what we most desire and spend years, perhaps entire lives, trying to attain.   That's very painful work and, even though it promises deliverance from our pain.... it's too hard to face and force ourselves to go through the majority of the time.  JMHO.  Tremusan

WRITE

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Re: Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2006, 03:29:31 PM »
Yes Write, I still own/run the restaurant.  I'm doing much better now that my thyroid meds were increased and I started taking a good multivitamin

that's great Laura. I've also dropped around 40 lbs since I've been on the synthyroid, great side-effect for once!

this is the "place" of no "struggle"
When we focus on the wanted outcomes this I think causes pain.


spot on Moon, especially with new relationships I think, when you have no way of knowing- for good or bad- but project all sorts out ( desire, attraction, wish-fulfillment, reactions, anger, pain etc )

I worte absent-mindedly to someone the other day: the things which are important are the same as ever- relationships and finding something meaningful to do. But I missed out- being who we can be!

reallyME

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Re: Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2006, 02:07:59 PM »
Write, even though I feel better on the increased dose of Synthroid, the sleep doc is sending me for tests for Sleep Apnea.  I'm pretty sure that I have a real problem with this.

~Laura

penelope

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Re: Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2006, 10:53:39 AM »
hi all,

Moon said:

Quote
I can operate right now with people I trust that have my best interest at heart and understand that I am building that strength within.
and
Quote
How is everyone  doing on this question ????? 

moon

I am still struggling with this mooner.  I want to get to this place you describe.  It is so hard!!  thanks for asking, though.

see my thread titled "Revenge Thinking" for more details, please - if you like


laura,
I understand what you're saying, it is so hard to let go.......

Normal.  I just want normalcy.  yes

bean

tremusan

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Re: Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2006, 02:59:41 PM »
Hi tremusan

I read the cover of a ZEN book once and then  I did not need to read the book ..........

The tittle was "Give up hope and abandon the abandonment'

This of course leads one to the vastness ......the isness is .......beingness .......acceptance..... this is the "place" of no "struggle"
When we focus on the wanted outcomes this I think causes pain.But what do I know .I am just goofing around trying my wings for the first time.

So yes perspective helps but freedom is beyond thought and the words............

It the vastness within and without....... surely it is or is it a dream......... you may choose but "it" is eternal.

moon

Tremusan writes:  I'm not necessarily touching on Zen here, lol.  This is more along the lines of German Natural Feeling therapy... and how hard it is to do the work...... to let go of hope.  Literally, let it go. 

Zen is about accepting everything that comes our way.... and being grateful for the experience.  Focusing on the present moment.  We can't experience good.... without the bad.  It comes hand in hand and we chain ourselves if we attach ourselves.  Tremusan

seasons

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Re: Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2006, 05:26:10 PM »
Hi Laura,

Is this where you are? I mean able to see it for what it really is? Have you stopped being the victim? I'm curious because your post was so loud and clear, I wanted to scream it from the roof tops.

Letting all the labels and guilt go sound so healthy for the human spirit.

Thanks for your post. (seasons)
"Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak Kindly. Leave the Rest to God."
Maya Angelou

reallyME

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Re: Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2006, 09:17:15 AM »
Seasons,

You asked if this is where I am...well, more than ever, yes.  I must be honest and tell you though, that I still sort of find myself imagining that this person, my former-mentor/spiritual mother, will come back into my life.  I realistically and logically KNOW that this might never happen, but there will always be that feeling of "why was I not good enough, why couldn't I measure up, and yet her new "catch" seems to?"  The truth of the matter is, the new lady is most likely very borderline, which fits PERFECTLY with n's.  So, if you look at it that way, it's a HUGE COMPLIMENT to me, that I was not as borderline as this new person, and, thus was not able to be as easily victimized.

I no longer expect N to react normal.  She has not contacted me since I told her new "catch" NEVER TO CONTACT ME AGAIN.  I guess they are both joined at the hip now, so if you dis N's friend, N disses YOU.  Go figure.

Personally, I do not believe it's possible to ever FORGET an N.  As much as we can disdain them, there were also things that DREW us to them...and, because WE are the more normal ones, WE have NOT forgotten our feelings of LOVE, CARE, CONCERN, BONDING toward that person.

This, again, is why I recommend that, if  you are not in a place of knowing deep inside who YOU are, and able to not let another person, N, try to DEFINE YOU, then STAY OUT OF ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL CONTACT WITH N, until you can.  If you are going to talk to a master manipulator/controller, you MUST know and be SECURE in your own identity, or THEY WILL SWAY YOU, I PROMISE AND GUARANTEE!

Ok that is my ramble for the day.  I'm heading to a Christmas program with angels that go from ceiling to floor.  I will tell you about it when I return.

Blessings to all!

~Laura

Hopalong

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Re: Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2006, 02:59:51 PM »
Laura,
I know one day you won't even worry about the labels any more. Your own love and compassion for yourself will just guide your feet. TOWARD kind people, TOWARD a real appreciation of your inner gentler self. AWAY from what is not kind and supportive.

I hope your heart was filled with angels today, and that you'll be feeling their loving wings around you tomorrow, too.

Moon,
You are so good.
Hope up north is a wonderful place and you have a great day.

It's sunny here...same sun shining on all of us.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

reallyME

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Re: Please stop trying to get normal reactions from abnormal people
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2006, 08:22:17 PM »
oh Hoppy, I will always be interested by "labels" because I'm fascintation with abnormal psychology and the workings of the mind.  I found out today that the girl whom we hired, was diagnosed OCD.  Interesting to be working with someone with that.

~Laura