Author Topic: Letting go of Mom although the issue of inheritance niggles.  (Read 8834 times)

surf14

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Letting go of Mom although the issue of inheritance niggles.
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2004, 03:33:59 PM »
To Seeker,
 Yes, when there is a recurring pattern in life and we continue unawares going for the same bait one has to wonder  why the eyes aren't open.  In the case of 'mother' I don't know if others can relate to this but it seems so basic that a mother would love and nurture her kid that  the kid (me) keeps expecting that she has finally understood and is acting like a mom should.  Like I say, I haven't been back there nor have I seen her much for 25 years (I couldn't bear to) so have built a healthy life and healthy friends here where I live.   I seem to forget her basic character and am always brought up short when the N rears its reproachable head.  Aloha
"In life pain is inevitable, suffering is optional".

rosencrantz

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Letting go of Mom although the issue of inheritance niggles.
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2004, 03:41:08 PM »
When my father died last year, I mentioned to my mother that I was very keen to have a cutting from the crab apple tree in the front garden to plant and grow in my own.

I guess you can understand the thoughts and feelings behind that wish.  You may not know exactly what they are but you'll have a feel for what that's about.

My mother - (you need to understand that she won't have anything done to the house which is practically falling down and won't pay anyone to do anything...) suddenly prioritised the garden and arranged for the tree to be chopped down.

 :shock:

Now, if I said anything about this to anyone they'd say I was being paranoid (BTW my mother hasn't told me - the social worker told me - she didn't know the history, it was just a statement of fact to her - she admired the fact that she'd actually got something done!!!). When I got off the phone from the social worker, I smply stated it as a fact to my husband in much the same way as the social worker had - and his face was a picture - and I said "You know, don't you".  HE knew and he's not a sentimental kind and it wasn't his memory or his father and I hadn't made a big deal of it to him (I think I'd mentioned it to both of them when we were in the garden just before the funeral) - and HE knew!!! He KNEW!!!

And I bet YOU know, too!!!  You know what that's all about.  What the sub-text is and what she meant by it.

I've never expressed this before, but here goes : HEARTLESS BITCH!!!

There is another side of me which can step into her shoes and understand that it probably wasn't her intention to be a heartless bitch - you don't call a child who's had nothing and can't let go of anything a heartless bitch, do you.  But it's such a million miles away from how I experience her and what it does to me (all of us ACONs).  To her it wasn't a terrible thing - she would probably feel ashamed if she ever dared to recognise what she did - and it's knowing that that makes us feel that they are vulnerable and we have to be careful around them.

But WE HAVE FEELINGS TOO and if WE don't look after our interests, look after ourselves, there sure as hell ain't anybody else doing so.  Therefore, look out for your own interests first - don't expect THEM to.

Sad, but true.

R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

Anonymous

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Letting go of Mom although the issue of inheritance niggles.
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2004, 04:01:21 PM »
Quote from: surf14
I would have to radically alter my expectations of her behavior and character  in order to conduct a superficial relationship with her; then again  if I do that I feel like I just accomodate her perception of reality and perpetuate the lie that she is the 'Queen Mother" without giving her the chance to take responsibility for herself.  (but we know  she will probably never change)


I don't think adapting to your mother's limitations is giving in to her. It's more like changing the current strategy which doesn't work. You're the one who is more healthy, so unfortunately the burden of adult behavior falls on you. This is how I manage with my mother, and it's not easy. I'd prefer her to be more grownup but she simply isn't.

bunny

surf14

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Letting go of Mom although the issue of inheritance niggles.
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2004, 05:52:13 PM »
Rozencrantz; I
I feel so bad as I read about the tree; I recognized it immediately for what it was and that was unforgiveably cruel of your Mom.   Her behavior is consistant though with the disorder  and they don't appear to think about what their behavior signifies; this is where the blinders come in and they seem to be patently stupid.  How were you able to refrain from confronting her?
 Bunny, you've reframed the problem and the solution; I guess for me to be able to view her behavior from that perspective I would have to shrink her down from "mother " in my mind to "monster brat" and I would go on limiting  interaction with her because how unpleasant is that to have to deal with on a consistant basis?  Bunny, when your mom acts poorly and says  cruel things are you able to get around having your feelings hurt anymore by having an accurate sensse of where her limitaitons are and where she is stuck developmentally?  Its been good to talk with people who've had the same experiences as those on this forum; helps you wade through years of  questiions and turmoil  previously understood by only the closest of friends.
"In life pain is inevitable, suffering is optional".

Anonymous

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Letting go of Mom although the issue of inheritance niggles.
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2004, 07:30:04 PM »
Quote from: surf14
Bunny, when your mom acts poorly and says  cruel things are you able to get around having your feelings hurt anymore by having an accurate sense of where her limitaitons are and where she is stuck developmentally?


My feelings still get hurt but the pain doesn't persist as long. I'm in therapy so I have someone to talk to about her.

bunny

Flo

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Letting go of Mom although the issue of inheritance niggles.
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2004, 09:24:14 PM »
You are all probably going to think I am a sell-out. And I feel like I am. Anyway, Hello, everyone, ... I am fairly new to this forum.

The problem is this: First of all, I didn't know anything about N until about 10  days ago, when I got a book out of the public library called **Trapped in the Mirror.** It's for families of N's trying to find themselves and heal themselves. It's written by the daugher of an N, who is also a therapist.  I notice this book has been mentioned here on the Forum, too.

I'd read some of Vaknin's stuff a while back, but it didn't quite "sit" with what I needed; but this book did.

Anyway, my parents, especially my dad, was determined never to let me "get away" from him.  Like surf14 says, my mother and he -- but especially he -- used money as a weapon, or a way to tie me to them.  I was essentially forcibly prevented from growing up, from learning any life skills to take care of myself; I was kept helpless in a way.

In addition to this, I was emotionally, verbally, and physically abused by him, and (sound familiar?) not protected by my cool, and emotionally neglectful mother. There was terrible turmoil in my family of 2 parents and 3 siblings. I am the oldest, brother is next and then my younger sister.

I tried moving thousands of miles away from Mother and Daddy, but they would follow me and move, too, to live nearby.

My parents grew up with money; then their families lost money in the Great Depression. When they grew up, they got professional jobs (Daddy was a corporation attorney, Mother a public school teacher) and when they had put me through college by age 21 (my brother is self-educated and my sister didn't finish college till her 40s) my parents began to pile up money.

I had always had mood disorders, and of course this made me dependent on Daddy's money. He controlled the money.

I tried and tried to support myself, but had many nervous breakdowns, but was never hospitalized because my (3) husbands were all crazy, too, and between my crazy family and theirs, I guess nobody wanted the various dirty linens exposed, so I was kept out of hospital? Who really knows.

I mostly worked; I had a lot of different sorts of jobs, but my main ones were teaching and office work. I was good at both types of work. But socially on the job, was terrified when I was at work. I usually had conflict with one or two people at work, and got along very well with everyone else.

Another major problem was that I did not have the stamina to do the work. I have always tired easily. Even in high school, I went to a doctor about exhaustion. He did not know what was wrong. This seems to be a familial problem. My great aunt had exhaustion.  And my brother has it,although he is a physical tower of strength, and home builder with his own hands. He has to work for himself because he can't work for anyone else. He did work for the Feds for about 15 years and he says it "about killed him."

I finally ended up working for myself for 19 years, and it was much better, but I was not able to support myself because I could only work 3 days a week in student-contact (i.e. paid hours). The rest of the time I was either resting or planning. When I got my third divorce, I went back to work and got fired, fired, fired because by then I was no longer young and cute, and could not keep up with the work pace.

In the earlier years, I DID try to get counseling, but in those days family counseling was not the "thing" and it was always "fix the broken person", you see. And throughout my life, nothing helped, either. I tried EVERYTHING except dumping or disconnecting from my family of origin.  And money was at least one of the major reasons.

Meanwhile, now I am 62; Mother is 86; Daddy died about 4 years ago at 86.

Daddy's will left all to Mother, and I think there were provisions for us 3 "kids," too. But Mother is not a generous person. Daddy was very generous to us.

Daddy loved me -- the most of all the kids. Even though Daddy was very cruel to me, he also loved me and I don't know about his feelings, but I had a very strong love-hate relationship with him. Not sexual. My hate relationship was stronger than my love.

Had my family not had money, I think I would have left them all a long time ago. But I needed help monetarily, because I could not support myself, and I did not know what to do.

Now, I again/still want to leave them all behind. I loathe my sister in law. My sister has always been ambivalent towards me and last Saturday I realized she is an N. She was very sweet and good to me when we were children; but I was very mean to her then. She was terrified of me and my Dad, but we also all had mutual protection of and from each other. Daddy and I were the tyrants then. Sister was the "sweet one," and I was the "strong one."  I retained me sense of self, of my own identity. She has told me that she never knew, still does not know, who she is. That she had subverted herself and hidden behind sweetness in order to avoid the terrors and physical abuse that I endured as I fought to retain my sense of personal dignity and identity. We are both sure that she was not aware that she was doing this, when she was young, of course.

My sister has been getting more and more difficult in the last 8-10 years, and she does not take care of herself in some major ways.  She looks great -- a true yuppie even if she is 55 y/o!  She is gorgeous.  But she is Super Mom -- and her two sons are full grown!

 She is under constant stress. When she DOES take care of herself, she and I get along well. But now, as most of the time, she is under such stress that her judgment is off, and as such I cannot trust her.   She stressed herself into a mastectomy and was ordered by the doctor to destress, but has not done so.  She has wanted to change jobs for NINE YEARS and has not taken even a single step to do that!  She has asked Mother's and my support to get rid of her stress; but when we give practical advice, she finally quit asking us.  Recently she remodelled her expensive home, on credit -- so now she can't afford to change jobs anyway!  And she wants to go to Europe on credit this summer, too.

Mother is some sort of N, too. Daddy was some sort of N. My brother is not an N. But he is a mystery man and there is a lot of secrecy in our family. Last Saturday my sister insulted me so badly it was a great shock; she also insulted my sweet, caring, loving Significant Other, who has never known anything like such a family as I have! So I have not spoken to my sister since then (as of last Tuesday, she has tried to contact me, but I have ignored it.)

I admire the many people here who have managed to cut themselves off from their families of origin, or from certain members of their families.

Last month, my sister and I also had a row. That time it was over a very SIMPLE matter in my mother's will, which involved only me. But my sister acted like it also involved her and my brother, and that THEY were in control of what I wanted. I was outraged. I then called my mother and told her I wanted out of her will and to hell with her and her money and I was tired of cow-towing to her and Daddy and their money all these years and for her to forget it all.

But I decided against it, and a few days later called her back and apologized for being rude. She said she didn't think I had been rude. Can you even imaging her saying that??????????????  She is so out of it -- Daddy was so horrible to her, Sis says, that she doesn't know what "normal rudeness" is like, we think.

We are talking about $350,000 in inheritance, for each of us 3 siblings. My mother is 86 years old. But she could live to be 100. Her grandfather lived to the age of 98.

I live on $592.00 per month Social Security Disability. And I think of suicide a lot. But this is a habit since age 10. When my medications are working better, I don't do this. And I have never had a suicide attempt, so please don't worry. I was upset when I wrote this last Tuesday, and am feeling better now b/c I upped my antidepressant w/ my doctor's permission and they kicked in on Thursday. But the funding cutbacks have me really worried about my mental health services, which keep getting less and less.

Oh -- I am the beneficiary of a smaller "special needs trust" (for disabled people) which is from a house I sold, plus $10,000 Daddy gave to each of us. It totals $25,000 and is supposed to last the rest of my life.

Any comments people think would be helpful would be most welcome. I am really torn about my family, and most of all, angry at myself for putting up with them for so many years.   I am so ambivalent about all this.  None of my other friends have a huge amount of money -- why should I? But even my sweetheart tells me that the money is MINE and I am entitled to it, as the daughter.  And believe me, he is NOT trying to "get the money."  He is 74 y/o and knows he does not have a long time to live.  And besides, the money will be in a trust FOR ME and he knows he is not able to get any actual funds from a trust, b/c I cannot.  He is thinking only of me.

I just feel like I have been too soft on money; but am also torn b/c I have been so helpless for too long.

So, as is surf14, I would greatly appreciate any and all thoughts and advice.  Sorry this is so long, and thank you for reading or at least looking this over,


Flo

surf14

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Letting go of Mom although the issue of inheritance niggles.
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2004, 10:19:28 PM »
Hi Flo,
  I guess after reading your story I would ask you if you think you can retain more distance from your family  for your own peace of mind and just hang in there?  You are going to need the money  to live and to continue to receive mental health benefits  but your peace of mind is essential because it affects your overall health.  You come from a family where there has been much drama over the course of many years and perhaps you'd like to bow out of all this at this point; again more distance but retaining a civil, yet noninvolved  stance might be a way to go.  Aloha
"In life pain is inevitable, suffering is optional".

rosencrantz

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Letting go of Mom although the issue of inheritance niggles.
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2004, 06:48:10 AM »
There are a lot of issues raised in your post, Flo.

The exhaustion (you)/stress (your sister) are (I believe) just two sides of the same coin - a response to handling the demands of N parents.  You're either 'on the run' or you've collapsed after having been trying to cope with a no-win situation for too long.  Even tho you may not be aware of how much you are struggling. It's just integral to your personality.  That's how I lived my life - even tho I tried so hard not to.  When I finally stopped running and being exhausted, the truth came gnawing its way in.  That transitional phase is pretty awful and takes its time to work through.

Why not share the book you mention with your sister - it may reveal as much to her as it did to you and it would give you common terrain on which to move forward.

As far as inheritance is concerned, I recognise the practical aspects of your story, but in a situation where money and love (and 'dues') are so mixed up, I'd want to understand that better and disentangle my feelings first.  Dorothy Rowe is a real gem for the positive reality check and she wrote a book called The Real Meaning of Money. It refers to a lot of UK stuff but is pretty universal in terms of its main purpose.  It's available on Amazon - there are probably lots of similar books available.
R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

rosencrantz

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Letting go of Mom although the issue of inheritance niggles.
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2004, 10:06:17 AM »
PS

In checking on Amazon to see if the Dorothy Rowe book was available in the US, I found another interesting book and I've since read the online extract.  You might like to check it out, too.  It's called "The Seven Stages of Money Maturity : Understanding the Spirit and Value of Money in Your Life" by George Kinder.  It's a long extract so you might like to give yourself plenty of time!
R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

Flo

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Letting go of Mom although the issue of inheritance niggles.
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2004, 10:54:32 PM »
Dear surf and rosencrantz,

Thanks for your excellent points, and such wonderful caring responses you have both given me.

I'll look into how much the N book costs -- if I can afford it, I may buy it and lend it to Sister.  

During the day today, when Sister was at work, I left her two short voice mails.  One said that I believe neither she nor I completely understands the other's feelings, nor where they are coming from.  And that because I am so hurt, I am inviting her to come to my therapist appointment with me.  I told her the times they are, and said it is fine to bring her therp, or have her therp be on speaker phone.  Also, I said that until that happens, I will need to have a hiatus in talking with her -- or some words to that effect.  BUT I said at the beginning of the voice mail to please consider that this is JUST a short voice mail, and not to consider each and every word of huge significance, that I am trying to communicate my thoughts as well as I can in such a venue.  

My second voice mail said that not to worry, please, my therp is WONDERFUL, and there is no way he is going to jump all over her -- in fact if he jumps on anyone, it will probably be ME!!  Then I laughed and said, Not really, but that two sessions ago my Sweetheart came with me to the session.  That it was not a matter of getting therapy for him, nor did we have any issues to raise -- I had just asked him to come to meet my therp and see what my health care is like.  "But," I added, "some issues DID come up, and my therp suggested things for him to different in some cases, and in other cases, suggested things for ME to do different. " Continuing that voice mail, I told my Sister that the therp had asked both of us how the hour went for each of us; and that my Sweetheart had told the therp that he had found the hour highly informative and helpful, and he was looking forward to coming again.  

I really like your idea, rosencrantz, that both my sister's stress and my overloads are the result of being raised by N parents.  I wonder how this fact could be brought out to help us in this situation, though?  

I read someplace -- maybe in the N book I am reading -- that when child siblings fight viciously or bully each other that this is a sign of ....not sure what.  However, my mother always said our behavior was "normal" and that "all siblings fight."  I INSTINCTIVELY KNEW SHE WAS WRONG.  And I told her so, but of course, she was always right.  She still will NEVER admit to doing ANYTHING less than right in our upbringing!  She thinks tying the door shut, or locking it from the outside, so a baby will sleep at naptime is the correct thing to do!  She was very impatient with my sister when she used to lie down with her infant sons, each of them when they were babies, and read to them till they fell asleep.  Mother was SO AGAINST THIS, and urged Sis to lock the door and lock them in!!!  I was outraged when I found out!! This woman was a public school teacher for decades, and was considered a kind, good teacher -- I just do not GET IT.  I called my Mother on this, but she got her back up and said she was right to do that, and I said it was terrible and I remembered all those times and it was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.  And that was the end of the discussion.

Discounted Girl

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« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2004, 11:09:05 PM »
I am real sure that an N trait is pitting sibling against sibling, even if it requires lies and torture. In our family the NQueenmother had to be in control of everything and alliances were not allowed. She didn't know that sibling alliance normally stems from love, not efforts to overthrow the dictatorship. In our family if someone said "don't worry, I've got your back," -- errrrr, I had to pull the knife out. Wonder how it would feel to have a nice, sweet sister to laugh with and confide in, or to have a brother who made you feel safe with his solid strength, reliability and good humor.  :)

Flo

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Letting go of Mom although the issue of inheritance niggles.
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2004, 02:32:41 AM »
Excellent point, DG.  Alliances were not allowed in our family either.  Now that you mention it.  For one thing, Truth was never spoken. You know -- The Elephant in the Living Room thing?  For other, Plots were common, usually I was the one that lead the plot.  I'd gang up with my brother upon "my" little sister.  I would not think of her as "our" sister, and still do not think of our parents are "our" parents.  "We" are not allianced as siblings.  Still, the "family loyalty" is to MOTHER.  It used to be to "the folks," which is what I named "them" since they were as one.  I never could see them as two individuals -- since Mother was 100 percent subjugated under Daddy.  Whatever Daddy said, Went.  On the rare occasions when Mother would state her own opinion, Daddy would find out -- even our thoughts were not free, and then Mother would say she had never said whatever it was she had said, and go along with parroting Daddy's viewpoint.  And what Daddy said was True.

So we were always in some sort of family conspiracy -- since We were Us and everyone else in the world was Other, and Wrong, or Stupid or Dirty, or Ugly, or Mistaken, or Rude, etc etc.  

Flo

rosencrantz

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Letting go of Mom although the issue of inheritance niggles.
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2004, 04:22:01 AM »
I really like your idea, rosencrantz, that both my sister's stress and my overloads are the result of being raised by N parents. I wonder how this fact could be brought out to help us in this situation, though?

To recognise that you are both coming from the same place even tho you express it in different ways. It may generate mutual tolerance and understanding.

Yes, DG I'd forgotten that.  I don't have siblings but my mother's sister was exactly like my mother except she had FOUR kids - and they were always set off against each other.  And one had the role of scapegoat, so had everyone else's rubbish projected onto him.   I don't trust any of them and they have a lot of pain.  

I don't know, Flo - if anyone left me voicemails like that, I'd rebel against them.
R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

Discounted Girl

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Letting go of Mom although the issue of inheritance niggles.
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2004, 06:04:47 AM »
I can remember way back when I felt such love for my little brother. I felt a real sense of protectiveness towards him (only 18 months difference). He had a marvelous quick wit, but was always a little bit shy -- actually I just described myself at a very young age, oh boy. I remember the summers we played in the backyard, climbing trees, riding our bikes and building forts. He was a sweet little kid. Well, about the time he married, he developed a smug attitude towards me. I didn't put much into it, figuring male hormones and the American stud mentality were manifesting. About 6 years later, when I divorced and begin raising my two sons by myself, that's when he, his wife and the NQueenmother really began to show their distain towards me. I now realize that their low opinion of me had forecast defeat, falling on my face and dependency. When none of that happened, they were furious. I didn't react, turned away, pretended not to hear and see and buried it deeper and deeper, hoping it would stop -- still dreaming I could live with the Leave it to Beaver bunch, wishing I was one of the Waltons. I was embarrassed by their words, actions and looks of disapproval. I said nothing, betting it would stop, still trying to prove I was okay and worthy, still wondering if maybe I was picking up the wrong signals, wondering what I had done wrong, and mostly still hoping my dad would step forward and say "leave her alone." I hated family fighting, the NQueenmother's goofy ways made me cringe. Her holiday episodes, her drama, her lies, her manipulations, all designed to control her subjects, to make sure noone had a happy life. I can remember she would lean forward for me to kiss her forehead -- what the f was that all about ????? I felt like I was on the Jerry Springer show against my will. Now I see that little by little, grain by grain, she blew away the foundation of my relationship with my brother. I know of some of the lies she told him, but I am sure I could still be shocked if I knew the scripts of her smear campaigns. So many times what I hoped were her "misunderstandings" were really outright plans of destruction. I go back to my point that it is so unnatural for a parent, particularly a mother to seek to destroy her child, that people believe what is said, even if it sounds outlandish. And the few who didn't believe the lies (most of whom had been N'd by her themselves) chose to remain silent. Who'd a ever thunk it !!   :shock:

Anastasia

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« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2004, 07:06:42 AM »
This is just a guess, but kissing on the forehead is how you would kiss a small child, normally.  You take it from there.
Discounted Girl, how well I relate to your letter: my Nmother has always turned against me--or anyone--who disagrees with her at the slightest hint (whether real or not).  An N trait.  
After reading this board and understanding more about narcissism, I am just sad to realize that I never had any chance of a normal mother-child relationship since my Nmother is definitely a classic narcissist.  I understand the reasons...now to get over the hurt and anger is the real chore which seems impossible at this point.