good and bad somehow defining these terms a la not bob dylan

[winded]

Unlike psychopaths, narcissists can experience loyalty and guilt; but like psychopaths, narcissists lack empathy or caring for others, viewing people as "playthings" to be used.
.......
ah guilt
good and bad
good and evil
somehow i define these terms in a rhyme from a bob dylan song...
or otherwise

http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/paranoidnarcissismspectrum.html

Psychologists suspect that the cause of narcissism is severe mental or physical pain in childhood at the hands of a powerful, idealized mother-father figure. Inconsistent parental attitudes on aggression and self-assertion as well as childhood experiences of being valued for specific, precocious talents seem to be the prime determinants. They never learned who to identify with -- the aggressor or victim, and they developed a pragmatic philosophy of siding with winners, regardless of who was in the right or wrong. In fact, they believe that the "good" is usually changeable and fickle while "bad" is stable and predictable. They live life by idealizing those who satisfy their narcissistic needs and systematically devaluing and denigrating those who do not. Underneath their superficial charm, they feel they have a right to control, manipulate, exploit, and be cruel to others.

AS MANY I SUPPOSE SUSPECT THAT LACK OF EMPATHY
CAN REALLY MESS UP ONE'S ABILITY TO DISCERN GOOD AND EVIL
AND COULD BE CORE TO THE ISSUES OF NARCISSISM..
WHAT MIGHT MAKE IT MORE CONFUSING IS IFN NARCISSISTS DO EXPERIENCE GUILT
WHERE PSYCHOPATH PERHAPS DONT SO MUCH
SO THO SIMILAR IN SOME WAYS
IF ONE THINKS ABOUT SUCH ASPECTS OF ABOVE IT MIGHT SEEM LESS CONFUSING

WHAT YA THINK  

[gratitude28]

I think I am a good person who has always felt she is 'bad' because that's how my mother acted toward me. As if there were sometihing inside me that was rotten. And I know, thanks to all of you, that she was projecting her dislike of herself onto me.
Yes, it is hard to know what is good and what is bad... Little things were blown out of proprtion and bad things were laughed off...
Thanks for the topic!!
Love, Beth

[moonlight52]

a la Bob Dylan

Jokerman by robert zimmerman

So swiftly the sun sets in the sky
You rise up and say goodbye to no one
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread
Both their futures so full of dread,you don't show one
Shedding off one more layer of skin
Keeping one step ahead of the perecutor within

Jokerman dance to the nightingale tune
Bird fly high by the light of the moon

oh oh oh Jokerman

[reallyME]

Unlike psychopaths, narcissists can experience loyalty and guilt; but like psychopaths, narcissists lack empathy or caring for others, viewing people as "playthings" to be used.

According to a book I'm reading Narcissism, Denial of the True Self, Narcissists do NOT experience guilt nor anxiety, and they do not feel empathy.

In my view, anyone who can give someone the "silent treatment" and ignore them as they cry, shows N tendencies.  I will never forget the feeling when that was done to me.  I was thinking two things:  First, the realization that, no matter how hurt I was, this person had the ability to truly IGNORE and NOT CARE.  Two, this must be what SHE once felt like when her own mother was not around and she had to practically raise herself.

they developed a pragmatic philosophy of siding with winners, regardless of who was in the right or wrong. In fact, they believe that the "good" is usually changeable and fickle while "bad" is stable and predictable.

She once told me that if she thought I was RIGHT, she'd move heaven and earth to defend me, but if I was wrong, I wouldn't want to be on her bad side, against her.  (she was right)

Underneath their superficial charm, they feel they have a right to control, manipulate, exploit, and be cruel to others.

No doubt about this one, except then she would feel bad about having done so, and seek to make things feel right again.  It was seemingly a sense of "guilt" which leads me to believe she has a crossover between some other problems, rather than being a full-blown N person.  The guilt would lead her to try and make things ok again, yet it never brought any true heart-feelings for me.  It was more like feeling guilty that she got caught and might ruin her and her family's good name, than that she was feeling sorry for hurting ME.  Very disillusioning to be with someone like that.

[Hopalong]

she has a crossover between some other problems, rather than being a full-blown N person.  The guilt would lead her to try and make things ok again, yet it never brought any true heart-feelings for me.  It was more like feeling guilty that she got caught and might ruin her and her family's good name, than that she was feeling sorry for hurting ME.  Very disillusioning to be with someone like that.

I can relate to that, RM. I think N traits are so amazingly recognizable that when we first learn them and someone in our lives has most of them that this is practically the only aspect of them we can see, because it's just so flippin' amazing that someone has already written a BOOK about:
our mother
our father
our sibling
our lover
our friend

How did they know? That's the feeling I had when I first had the copper locomotive fall through my head.

But I think you're onto something about no human being, even a narcissistic one, falling completely and tidily into just one box. Neat. Flaps folded. Stapled. Taped. Naaahhh, the boxes always leak.

I had a very similar response when I read Men Who Can't Love. It was not about narcissists per se, though there were some in the book, but about men who literally were phobic about making a commitment (not just to a woman), and how that is manifested in so many clear, overt, consistent, subtle but once you know them--obvious patterns. I had the same response to that collection of information:

How did they know that?

I think it's staggeringly useful to understand ourselves or someone else with the help of some wise authors' deep study of psychology. But at the same time, also good to remember that even negative and destructive people have mystery, can't be neatly boxed. That's just the nature of being human, there are always mysteries within the self.

Hops