Author Topic: Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly  (Read 2796 times)

reallyME

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Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly
« on: December 29, 2006, 04:33:47 PM »
Hi all...a thought had occurred to me about something people have told me throughout the abusive times I've had to heal from.  I was told "well, think of Jesus, how HE suffered!"

As I was pondering this..a thought had occurred to me.  I would NEVER discount the immense pain of my Saviour and Lord, on that hill to Calvary and on the cross.  I was thinking though...do ya suppose his ministry on earth and his death were only allowed to last a few years for a REASON?  I mean, it was hard enough for God to let His only Son go to such a cruel generation of people and to suffer and die for things He never did wrong...do you suppose maybe just maybe, God SPARED HIm other future pains on this planet from those Pharisees and other evil creatures on it?  Just a thought.

Remember, there is always One who understands.

He knows X's heart and N's heart and N supply's heart and all of your N-mothers, N-fathers, N-siblings, friends, enemies' hearts.  Better than anyone else on this earth!

~RM

whoami

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Re: Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2006, 05:03:51 PM »
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  it's a thought to ponder.

daylily guest

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Re: Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2006, 05:24:15 PM »
I don't believe the length of Christ's earthly ministry was pre-ordained, or that any of the principals (including Christ Himself) simply played out a pre-written script.  There are countless points of choice in the story, and for me, that is one of its most powerful elements.  Everyone from Joseph to Herod had choices in the matters before them; even Christ Himself had to choose to submit to the Father's will.  Right was before them all the time.  Sometimes they saw it, sometimes they didn't.  I've always thought Herod a particularly interesting case, since he did everything he could to distance himself from what he was choosing, and his subconscious--his dream--warned him to beware the choice.  Christ preached at a particular historical moment, and the times were right for him to gain a following and be perceived as a political/social threat.  But whether the set of circumstances that led to His death took three or five or ten years to develop...that, I think, was a combination of chance and choice--as is all history.  Also, it should probably be remembered that those three years were very much the prime of life at that time.

I guess it all boils down to what one believes about free will.  God may know our hearts, but does He dictate our actions?  He may punish those who do not recognize and accept Him, but is that punishment the active infliction of pain or simply the knowledge that we have chosen wrong and it is too late to repent the choice?  If Heaven is the bliss of union with the creator, could Hell really be more than eternal separation?  

As much as I've thought this through for myself, I believe that God created man free to choose, and that this has always been so.  I believe that Judas himself could have repented--he was eternally condemned only because he denied God's mercy and condemned himself by committing suicide.

Which leads me, oddly enough, to the question of N's.  How culpable is a true narcissist for hurting others, when it is the very nature and definition of narcissism to be unable to recognize the pain of others?  I have wondered if narcissists don't meet the definition of criminal insanity--they are incapable of discerning the consequences of their actions.  This doesn't mean they get a free pass through life, in my opinion.  It simply means, as so many of us have learned, that it is fruitless to expect or ask for repentance, let alone contrition.  They cannot repent of sins they do not see.  True, they have free will and could choose to behave otherwise.  But to do so would require a level of recognition that I'm not sure they can achieve.

Anyway, I'm very far from the original question.  Interesting observation, rM.  Thank you for it.

daylily

Stormchild

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Re: Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2006, 06:24:05 PM »
I'm such a heretic that I am not even sure that Judas is eternally condemned. After all, his very betrayal of Christ was an essential piece of the puzzle, wasn't it? And if that is so, then he helped to bring about the death and resurrection of Our Lord... which was the purpose for which Christ was sent among us... yet for doing this, he is condemned for all eternity?

In Catholicism it is taught that Christ, before rising from the dead, preached to the imprisoned spirits - this being the only way the atonement could extend back in time to save those already dead before it occurred.

I don't think it's impossible that in so doing, He found and forgave Judas, and set him free.

But if this unsettles or upsets anyone, just leave it here. Take what helps; feel free to ignore this if it does not.
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Hopalong

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Re: Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2006, 09:21:12 PM »
I think this way too, Daylily:

Quote
How culpable is a true narcissist for hurting others, when it is the very nature and definition of narcissism to be unable to recognize the pain of others?  I have wondered if narcissists don't meet the definition of criminal insanity--they are incapable of discerning the consequences of their actions.  This doesn't mean they get a free pass through life, in my opinion.  It simply means, as so many of us have learned, that it is fruitless to expect or ask for repentance, let alone contrition.  They cannot repent of sins they do not see.

This is what drives my train of thought with Ns (after I heal from the injury of giving myself to them, that is--when I begin to take myself back). I don't even mind if it's "correct" or not. It's unprovable either way, but this train is the only one that takes me in direction of compassion.

And that's the only thing that helps me feel clean.

Hops
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moonlight52

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Re: Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2006, 11:59:05 PM »
This understanding of a person with Nism is very true. I do wish it was otherwise.No one wishes it more than I .........
I understand and soooooooooooooo trying not to have hurtfull feelings and I just want peace...

But I do not wish for my children watch their parent being demeaned by anyone .

This is not good for MY children or me.My children have watched their mother be demeaned by said N for years .
How much is enough,it's damaging.

The only one that likes it is the N playing minds games and hurting feelings.
After they left my house my 14 year old asked why did G------ make you cry Mom??????

Little ones understand when someone is hurting there mom...

But living with healthy attachments this I have the right to choose and leave the rest to Heaven.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2006, 12:26:07 AM by moonlight »

CB123

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Re: Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2006, 12:17:20 AM »
After wrestling with how much my NH knows of what he is doing, and how much is his own blindness....I finally decided that the reasons or the degree of his understanding no longer mattered.  Even if I knew, I couldnt change it. 

I could only change me--and whether he knew what he was doing or not, being with him was making a mess of me.  So I had to take care of me.

I guess that's what Moon was saying. 

Yeah, Moon.  What you said.

CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

teartracks

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Re: Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2006, 07:04:14 AM »

Hi Storm,

Re: #3 post this thread.

Heretic?  If  God and His acts are not in time, and if He is impassible, and if the creature does not impose  time upon the Creator, (a tool provided him by the Creator), maybe not!   That God coordinates all transactions between himself and the creature (outside of time as we understand it), not the other way around,  sounds  like solid theology to me.  I'm not a Bible scholar, so with disclaimer firmly in place, I'm simply making a comment.

What you've presented is a  fairly common belief amongst  Protestants as well.

tt   

Stormchild

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Re: Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2006, 09:58:57 AM »
((((((((((tracks))))))))))

nice to see you here. How are you?
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

http://strangemercy.blogspot.com

http://potemkinsoffice.blogspot.com

teartracks

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Re: Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2006, 02:28:25 PM »


I'm good   [:)

Thanks for asking...

tt

moonlight52

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Re: Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2006, 02:39:38 PM »
Hi tt How were your Hoildays????


M

teartracks

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Re: Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2006, 07:41:11 PM »


Moon,

:D  Holidays!  Oh my goodness can you say five pounds?  I'm recovering from all the rich food.  Spent it with Mom and other family.  Lots of driving and traffic was a bear.   Santa left sooty footprints on the carpet.  Got my work cut out cleaning up that mess! :roll:

I appreciate your thinking of me.

tt

moonlight52

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Re: Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2006, 04:45:11 PM »
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Daylilly)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I guess it all boils down to what one believes about free will.  God may know our hearts, but does He dictate our actions?  He may punish those who do not recognize and accept Him, but is that punishment the active infliction of pain or simply the knowledge that we have chosen wrong and it is too late to repent the choice?  If Heaven is the bliss of union with the creator, could Hell really be more than eternal separation?  

thank you for this understanding

moon

Hopalong

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Re: Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2006, 06:30:48 PM »
I want to mention that my spirituality is about love, compassion, wonder and gratitude.

It does not include a specific vocabulary such as God, Heaven, etc. (Although I do use the word "god" privately, I don't often use it publically because most people automatically assume one is Christian).

Anyway, just wanted to mention that for me, being agnostic is a position of reverence.

I had an unpleasant run-in with a woman in a bookstore yesterday. I was listening with great respect to her partner's description of himself as involved with a prayer ministry. After a while, I simiply mentioned in two words, "I'm agnostic"-- and she unloaded on me like Limbaugh. I felt hated by a stranger and I hadn't been challenging or provocative at all, just honest. It hurt!

Uggh.

So today I'm a little more sensitive than usual to assumptions of shared religious vocabulary. It'll pass.
Just wanted to vent that, and this is my safe place to do it!

Happy Sunday night and Happy New Year,
love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

CB123

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Re: Something to ponder about One who truly suffered unjustly
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2006, 06:33:04 PM »
I'm sorry about your run-in at the bookstore, Hopalong.

That really wasnt fair.  I'm glad you shared it here, among friends.

CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010