marital therapy in the twilight zoNe

[pandora]

More strangeness in marital therapy- sorry so long!

N expressed disappointment and frustration with me and the therapeutic process.  He feels he has progressed a great deal in his personal growth, but has not seen the same for me.  Instead, he upset that I have become more emotionally withdrawn than ever.  He says this is disappointing because he has made efforts to be less critical.  It is true that he is not often overtly nasty as he used to be; not sure if that is permanent.  However, he has still said and done some outrageous things that keep me from feeling safe.

I stated that from my point of view, our relationship is not any safer for me emotionally, and in fact seems less and less safe.  He seems to honestly not get it that expressing indifference to whether we are together in the end or that hooking up with strange women for lunch would be threatening to me at all!  

The therapist did suggest that I might try to be clear when he does/says things that I do find threatening, so that he can learn what is acceptable.  
I have tried to do this – I think I was very clear to him that I don’t want him going to lunch with strange women, and I did express feelings of abandonment to him when he first began planning his trip.  He did not really respond with understanding.  Some of the more outrageous comments he has made about our marriage or me needing to “work harder” have shocked me so much I could not respond.  

The therapist seemed to think there was a glimmer of something positive here – perhaps so, but it seems to put the responsibility for reining him in on me.  Will I have to be constantly vigilant as long as I am with him?  I actually think I have been over the past few months and it is quite exhausting.

Another thing that really disturbs me is that he misrepresented himself in the session.  For example, he expressed frustration that he has “constantly” offered to drive me to work, etc. as a way of spending time together and building intimacy, but that I always refuse.  The truth is that he mentioned this once in the last week –unusual.   I told him it was OK, I really prefer to drive myself.  But he made it sound different in the session.

He also pointed out to the counselor that he had offered to postpone his trip if I wanted him to so that we could work on our relationship, but that I had told him no, I was looking forward to the time apart, and that he should go as planned.  This is true, however, he only made this offer about 2 days ago, and only after I expressed my feelings of questioning our marriage and wanting to use the trip as a separation.  He seemed to be using this in the session as proof that my emotional withdrawal, or something else about me is really the problem.  

A month ago, I tearfully told him that I felt very much that he was abandoning me by planning such an extended trip at this time, and that I could not help but see it as a turning away from me.  Where was his offer to postpone it then?  Why did he wait until days before his departure, after my attitude has changed and I am looking forward to the time apart with relief?  

Yet another detail (yes, I am obsessive) – a few days ago, after we had discussed separation, I honestly told him that I really felt uncomfortable with him at times lately, and that I was sorry if it hurt his feelings, but I still question if I can trust him.  I really did not say this in an attempt to be hurtful, but he noticed I was behaving differently, and I thought I should be honest with him about my feelings.   He brought this up in the session, too – with what seemed to me an undertone of blaming me.  No introspection into how his own actions might have contributed.

I feel like he has pushed me to this point of withdrawing and now really starting to question whether I should stay with him, and now he is blaming me for the way I react, disappointed in me for being closed to “intimacy”, and pointing to this as the reason our marriage is in trouble.  Maybe his whole goal in going to therapy is to “fix” or blame me?

I called the therapist later and asked him directly if I could ever expect any real remorse or sincere apology from N.  He told me that is probably something that I will never get from N, and that I will have to come to terms with that if we stay married.  My question – if someone can’t feel remorse or apologize, how likely is it that they will behave in the same way again?

OK, very very long post – at least give me credit for using paragraphs!  Thank you all!

I am calling the therapist again this afternoon, with a huge list of questions, so you no doubt will get an update!

[Anonymous]

Another long post.  After thinking about my marriage, what I have learned about Ns, and events in our session yesterday, I made a list of questions to ask the therapist (T).  I am fortunate that T seems very perceptive and honest, and is very tolerant of my phone calls and questions.  I discussed the following list with him, and noted the answers we discussed.  This approach is helping me in seeing my options, and I thought that you guys might also find it helpful, or be able to share any of your relevant experiences.  


Can he ever be truly supportive/unselfish or does the lack of empathy rule that out?  Uncertain – depends on N’s ability to learn what is/isn’t hurtful.  Will need constant reminders and vigilence from me as this will probably never come to him naturally.

Will he be able to learn and take some responsibility for meeting my needs, or will I always have to fight for it? Related to above and below, probably would need to reduce my expections of a more “normal” marriage and be extra-vigilant in pushing him to meet my needs, or getting them met in other ways without him.

Wll have to exercise constant vigilance to signal when he is being hurtful, inappropriate, devaluing etc.  I feel that this puts the responsibility for controlling his behavior on me.  Is this a normal thing to have in a relationship?   Not normal – well you knew that.  Is quite likely that constant vigilance will be required, and I will always have to take responsibility for trying to rein him in.  A very exhausting way to live.

Does his lack of empathy and remorse for his actions mean that it is likely he will repeat this kind of behavior again (other women and verbal abuse)?  Hard to say, T feels he does have some slight sense of remorse – however expecting a sincere apology and promise not to do these things again is probably an unrealistic expectation from N.  Despite all the times I have brought up my feelings of hurt about OW, in therapy and at home, he has NOT apologized ONCE.  

My perception is that he often puts the responsibility/blame for our problems in the relationship (and some of his personal problems) on me.  (He says “I’ve done this, I’ve done that, but she is not changing/growing, etc., I am disappointed that she is not paying more attention to me, is ungrateful”) Is this likely to change?  May be minimized, but unlikely to change as it is typical characteristic of N personality type.   N has always been like this with me and other people.  I would always have to tolerate/fight and use my own internal defenses to keep from being hurt by this.
He often seems disappointed and dissatisfied with me with who I am and what I can give him – emotionally, sexually, otherwise – is this likely to always be the case?  Same as above.  N has always been like this with me and other people- ultimately dissatisfied.  In my case it alternated (and still does to some extent) with periods of affection and seeming adoration (much less frequent now).

Am I overreacting to think of leaving him after what he has done, how he has behaved, and learning more about his character?  It is a sign of my own weakness, fear of intimacy or inability to commit?  Do I have a moral or ethical obligation to stand by him?  NOT OVERREACTING- all my friends and family tell me this.  Pastoral counseling advised me that he has already broken our marital vows and thus it would not be immoral to leave him.  T says that if I leave it is not a sign that I am too weak or wimping out.   T says that believing that staying in a relationship would ultimately be damaging to you is a valid reason for leaving.  Because of my lack of enough strength to control N, I think it ultimately may be too damaging for him as well to be with me.

What is the chance/possibility of having a truly equal relationship?  Would you want yourself or one of your children to stay in a relationship like this?  Not much of a chance for truly equitable marriage relationship.  T hedged, said that he would try to stop one of his kids from committing to a relationship like this, and if they were in it, he would help them try to understand it.  I think this question posed a conflict of interest for T, since as a marital therapist his job is to try and get people to work on their marriage and focus on creating optimism.  But despite that, T was honest with me and I am grateful.  

I hope that some of you find this beneficial.  I am more of a thinking than a feeling person (and a geek as well), so while I value my feelings and am learning to feel and voice them, information is what helps me to see clearly when it comes to making decisions.  Thank you all for listening.

[Anonymous]

This therapist sounds on the ball. And it was smart of you to ask those particular questions.

bunny

[rosencrantz]

Hi Pandora - Well done on the paragraphs!  

Just to cut to the chase, if you could find a helicopter view rather than a detailed view, it might help you see the relationship better.  Don't have any suggestions on how to find the helicopter view, but I feel you're getting lost in amongst all the detail.  (I've done this SO many time!)

For example, he doesn't apologise - so what!  Would it make any real difference?  You want out (sensible girl!) but are trying to find every last shred of evidence to justify it.  

He is an N - end  of story  

He's looking for someone to blame - you.  And he will do that, you can't defend yourself from his need to blame you.  It's his way of manipulating you and keeping you on a short lead. You will never, ever, ever be in the right.

Why not just take it on the chin and acceed/conceed.  Yes, it's my fault.  I want out of this marriage and I want out to preserve my sanity and my mental health and my general well-being and my happiness (and my teeth, if you've been reading another thread   ).

Otherwise you'll be arguing the toss and putting it under the microsope forever more.

I understand that you probably can't get to that point just now but perhaps you could keep it in mind on the horizon.  Honestly, you can't win with an N.

It's a bit like Guest's 'Big Jake' persona trying to shut me up by saying that my problem is that I always want the last word.  What do I do?  Give in to prove him wrong?  Patacake back by saying "No, YOU always want the last word"?; defend myself? (both times apparently proving him right).  The answer is to acceed.  Yeah, right I always want the last word and here it is. Boom!

Let it go through you otherwise YOUR guilt and YOUR need to be seen as a NICE person is HIS weapon.

Good luck to you.  
R

[Anonymous]

Do I believe he will ever be truly supportive/unselfish or does the lack of empathy rule that out?  

Will it need constant reminders and vigilence from me, as this will probably never come to him naturally? [/b]

Do I think  he will be able to learn and take some responsibility for meeting my needs, or will I always have to fight for it?

Wll I have to exercise constant vigilance to signal when he is being hurtful, inappropriate, devaluing etc

Do I believe his lack of empathy and remorse for his actions means that it is likely he will repeat this kind of behavior again (other women and verbal abuse)?  


Do I think this is this likely to change?  


I hope that some of you find this beneficial.  I am more of a thinking than a feeling person (and a geek as well), so while I value my feelings and am learning to feel and voice them, information is what helps me to see clearly when it comes to making decisions.  Thank you all for listening.

Pandora, I am using your list as something to devote this weekend to thinking about my partner. Thanks, it's just what I needed to get me back on track and focused. I might add to it, but you've got me going? Thanks

Guest

[Just enlightened]

Let it go through you otherwise YOUR guilt and YOUR need to be seen as a NICE person is HIS weapon.


Now Rosencratz - That comment was brilliant !

I wonder if you could expand your thoughts on this topic. I think you've hit on a central theme in the relationship between narcissist and insignificant other.

Yes!

[Anonymous]

It's a bit like Guest's 'Big Jake' persona trying to shut me up by saying that my problem is that I always want the last word.  What do I do?  Give in to prove him wrong?  Patacake back by saying "No, YOU always want the last word"?; defend myself? (both times apparently proving him right).  The answer is to acceed.  Yeah, right I always want the last word and here it is. Boom!

Let it go through you otherwise YOUR guilt and YOUR need to be seen as a NICE person is HIS weapon.

Good luck to you.  
R

Yes, accede is an excellent strategy. In courses I did  "Positive Engagement" they taught this as a way of succesfully terminating useless arguments, which in, life we can find ourselves in with non-N's as well. They called it blocking.

It isn't useful as a far as conflict resolution goes though, so it's not a cure all. But hey, we don't need to resolve conflict with everybody.

Guest

[sslichterj]

Before I type in a long reply, want to be sure I will be able to post..Next post will be for real...Sally

[sslichterj]

Pandora: I am really new here. Found this site less than two weeks ago. In that two weeks I have walked away for the last time from a man who has been the N in my life for over 20 years.

I am the daughter of an N, but didn't know it. The last 20 years of my life have revolved around the N in my life, but I had no idea he was an N either. I have been in therapy for over 20 years. Have been to treatment center for alcohol and drug addiction (trying to cope with being hooked into an N). Have 18 years of being clean and sobor.  Have spent all but two years of the last 18 in some twelve step program or another. Have been in AA, NA, SLAA, AlAnon, OA and Coda.  Have done all of that trying to figure out what was wrong with me and why I couldn't live with or without this man that was literally consuming my soul.

Today, as I finally understand what has been going on, I want to say to you....run, run as fast as you can away from this man who is your husband.  Spend every moment you can spare studying and learning about what an N really is.  Do not delude yourself. In my own opinion, if a therapist has not said that to you, knowing that you are trying to deal with an N; then that therapist is harming you.  

Let me say as clearly as I can. There is nothing wrong with you. Nothing. You cannot change yourself in any way that will help your N to have empathy or become kind to you or stop trying to blame everything on you. My "perfect", always "right" N used my recovery issues and my wish to get well as a way to make everything my fault.  It had to be my fault, because he was perfect (with no addictions and no need for therapy).  He was/is just perfect.  

However within the last few weeks, I learned that he does have one "human" frailty which he apparantely has used to cover up any weakness he might  appear to have...he is a cross dressser in private.  (Let me clearly state, I have ablsolutely no problems with a cross dresser, none, zip). But can you imagine someone living with the shame of being a cross dresser (a deputy sheriff, no less) who makes it his mission in life to point out how sick 'you' are while he goes into his private room to put on women's clothes, complete with bra, wig and make-up?

Ah, a Narcissist unveiled!!  Please I beg of you.  Run do not walk.  I have given my entire life to this man that I adored.  No one, not one person helped to understand that this was a sick man, a very sick man, who would need to work the entire rest of his life to get well, and that even doing that, he might still be the same.

The good doctor who has given us this site, in my opinion, knows what this damage is all about and is doing everything in his power to warn us.  I do not belive, in my opinion, that he has given us this site so that we will learn to live with or stay with a narcissist, or try to get along with one.  I think, in my opinion, he is doing this because he knows how seriously damaging it can be for anyone to get hooked into an N.

I'm not sure what is going on in the world of therapy that therapists, in some cases, seem to be clueless about Narcissists. But if they are not clueless, which your therapist clearly is not, then I believe, in my opinion only, that he is guilty of malpractice for not taking a strong stand in making you understand the importance of leaving.

If a therapist was not actively encouraging a woman from leaving a marriage where she was being physically abused, would there be any excuse for that?  Then why should there be any leeway for a therapist to be wishy/washy about staying in a marriage with an N?

So, since he or she apparantely is more concerned with getting therapy money from you than truly saving your life, I will say it for him/her. Get out. Get out now. You have learned enough.  Don't hold what you know about him up to the light and try and "figure it out". You won't be able to. Just reading your post tells me already you are too kind, too honest, too understanding for him and that he is using all of those endearing traits in you for his own sick purposes.  

I wish you health, courage and all of the strength you will need to do what you need to do. And if you do leave...don't ever look back...Hugs. Sally

[Anonymous]

Hi Pandora, I've gone back through your posts to try to see if you are having individual therapy. I found only one reference to 'therapists', which I didn't know if it was a plural, a typo or what.

You only ever seem to refer to marriage counselling. I wouldn't sell your marriage therapist too short yet, he sounds pretty open, available and sincere. He's confirmed your ex is an N. That's a start. Afyer all, his brief is really just the marriage, to help you both come to an understanding about what it is that you have. Then you and/or your husband can decide if it's worth working on or not. If after an exposure period you both (you or your husband) decide it's worth working on then off you go, marriage counselling is the go.

Marriage counselling is yuk work a lot of the time, so I've read.  It can produce lot's of hostility and accusations and lying from one or both spouses which can drive the marriage into new depths chaos. So some married couples are actually advised against joint sessions or marriage counselling completely. Especially when one party degrades and violates the others dignity and self-respect. Sometimes couples are recommended and better off with individual counselling.

If your husband lies and distorts history in counselling this is an indicator that he is disingenuous. If it's simply different perceptions of events, you'll know. If it's the former, then my guess is that the marriage counselling sessions are going to tie and twist your stomach up in knots and screw with your head, not his.

I'd discuss this with the counsellor, get his opinion. If he agrees with you too, that he believes your husband does do this then the therapist really needs to address this with him, his sincerity. I personally think you need your own guy. Your own therapist. Nothing to do with marriage counselling. Pandora's own private person, who's interested in Pandora's well being only.

So, I was wondering if you have your own therapist? Someone objective who is just there to help YOU work through YOUR issues. This forum is an excellent place to come to, but nothing can substitute a good, and on the ball, therapist for getting into the issues with you, at your level.

I look at a couple of responses here that are excellent from their points of view, but your case is different again.

It's a bit like the first serious job I ever had in an A La Carte Restaurant. Some dame who'd worked there for 5 years had to show me the ropes. She was also silver service trained. She showed me an told me everything to do with such deft precision, 10 minutes before opening time, and I was horrified. I thought, "It's gonna take years before I can do what she does." She could carry about 5 meals out to the tables at one time all balancing up her arms, 2 plates in one hand. And not miss a beat. It took me quite a while, but I did eventually get as good as her.

So I read some posts like that here. You're sometimes being told things by others what to do, and are being given advise left right and centre. Even from me. That's fine and good, but I just want to say, It's okay to take your time. If you ever sense a bit of exasperation in someones' tone sometimes, and I know I have, don't worry about it. And if you don't know what I'm on about, good. This is only a cyber forum after all, we're all anonymous at the end of the day. And none of us have to live with any of the fall-out of any decisions you make as a result of any advice given here. You do. So I'd weigh it up carefully.

It's all up to you, and you shouldn't feel under any pressure here, keep talking. It is in taking slow steady steps, with wisdom from learning and sharing, that not only will you work your way through this situation, but you'll ensure you won't find yourself in a similar place in the future.

If you rush off just on impulse from fear, then you haven't really learnt anything. And in that case run the risk of repeating history. If you rush off because of sound judgement and knowledge, you'll feel strong and won't cave through indecision. It can and may take time, but it's time worth taking. And my personal opinion, for what it's worth, is you need your own therapist. Thanks for sharing your story so far Pandora, and wish you well.

Guest.

[seeker]

Hi Pandora,

Just checking in here after the weekend.  I was thinking about you because I was just like you when dealing with the N in my family.  I kept wishing it was different, kept hoping for change, kept getting frustrated when things were awful.  I was obsessing about the fact that geez, I'm a good person, doing kind things, why is N treating me and my family like this?  And I mean I was obsessing!    

As soon as I realized things weren't going to change, really grasped the reality of my situation, (it took therapy which I know you are getting), I felt so much better!!!    I did grieve the loss, but ultimately I am far better off.

I finally gave myself permission to walk away from the car wreck.  It doesn't matter who was driving, who didn't signal, etc., the car was totalled and no point in paying more for bodywork to be done.  I learned a lot.  I learned (and am still learning) to give myself permission to walk away from situations that only have pain for me.  

Also just want to comment on the therapist/advice thing.  Only you can make the decisions you can live with.  The therapist cannot take responsibility for your life or your decisions.  It sounds like you are getting good information.  It will take time to process everything, but it sounds like you have all the data you need to know what you will get if you stay v. how you will feel if you go.  Either way, you will be informed and aware.  Good luck to you, Pandora.  Take care, Seeker

[pandora]

Hi everyone,

Thank you to seeker and all who expressed support and concern.  I made it through the weekend intact.

N left for his 2-3 month trip Saturday evening.  We were friendly to each other.  He expresses ambivalence about our marriage, his feeling that it is lacking in certain areas, etc.  He does not express any sense of commitment or even obligation to me as far as I can see.  

It's weird - it's like he doesn't even care whether I stay with him or not, and if I do go, he expects me to just pack a suitcase.  He is a bit of an idiot to leave now, as it gives me 2 months to get all the info I need on our assets if I do decide to leave him.   And I have already started talking to lawyers.

I feel better since he is gone.  Although I am very angry and appalled at his treatment of me, and also still devastated that my dream of what our marriage would be has been destroyed.  Another thing I struggle with is how I could be fooled by him so completely.  I wish I could believe we could return - I felt so happy the first year we were married.  

My dad told me that people like this are very good at deceiving you about their true nature, while they are focused on getting what they want from you, and that later, when they want something else more, it will come out.  The deception may not even be completely conscious on their part.  

So I am lonely, but less stressed.  

Pandora

[surf14]

I finally gave myself permission to walk away from the car wreck. It doesn't matter who was driving, who didn't signal, etc., the car was totalled and no point in paying more for bodywork to be done. I learned a lot. I learned (and am still learning) to give myself permission to walk away from situations that only have pain for me.
  I really like this Seeker; very healthy perspective.  Surf

[seeker]

Glad to help, Surf!    I'm still learning that I have choices....
peace, Seeker