When Loved Ones Don't Support Us

[Dazed1]

Hi all,

GAP, who is a member of our board, posted an answer on another thread and I'd like to explore it deeper. 

GAP, I hope you don't mind that I'm using your post, but you raised an issue that has been bugging me.  Thank you so much (((GAP))) for raising this issue.  I have a hard time processing this issue and my thoughts go round and round and drive me a bit crazy.

GAP wrote the following:

"I know what you mean about people saying you can change your behavior and then magically the N will be better.  My mother use to tell me if I could be behave differently my husband would be nicer and happier.  Just yesterday when I mentioned something he did that was typical N she said well maybe when he finds a woman that makes him happy he will be less vindictive!  I mentioned for the 100th time he is never going to be happy, he can only maintain the act for about 3 months, his abuse was real and he has treated every person he has ever had a relationship with in the same abusive manner he treated me.  She witnessed the abuse, she was on the receiving end of the abuse yet she still says stupid things indicating I somehow wasn't the right woman for him."


Here are 3 lines from GAP's answer which hit a nerve for me:

"My mother use to tell me if I could be behave differently my husband would be nicer and happier."

"..she said well maybe when he finds a woman that makes him happy he will be less vindictive!"

"...yet she still says stupid things indicating I somehow wasn't the right woman for him."

GAP has verbalized something I used to experience with my N mom.  I felt that often, my mom would take the side of my enemy.  For example, if I told mom that someone treated me badly, she would often respond with an answer that basically meant "what did you do to cause it?".  Mom assumed that I DID something to CAUSE someone to mistreat me.  I often believed her.  And yet, her assumption drove me nuts.

Please comment on how we turn to people for support and they respond by saying we caused the unpleasantness, when the evidence shows the contrary.

Also, please comment about how on one level, I believed her, believed that I did do something wrong, but on another level, I felt I didn't do wrong and it was the other person who was wrong.

What is the nature of this dynamic?  Is it an N thing?

Also, why does this situation, this dynamic bug me so much?  I suppose it bugs me because not being supported (or heard and understood, or validated) by someone who loved me (Mom) makes me feel VOICELESS??   Did a lightbulb go off??

Also, would this dynamic be called "crazymaking", "gaslighting" or "defining someone else's reality"?

Thank you everyone.  Again, thank you GAP, for helping me clarify my issues.

dazed

[Leah]

Also, would this dynamic be called "crazymaking", "gaslighting" or "defining someone else's reality"?

Yes and deep inside my Nmother reaped immense satisfaction - I even glimpsed a light in her otherwise lifeless eyes

Leah

[Dazed1]

Oh Leah!

"..deep inside my Nmother reaped immense satisfaction - I even glimpsed a light in her otherwise lifeless eyes "

That must have really hurt.

I know this sounds naive, but why do you think your Nmom got satisfaction from doing this?  I'm trying to figure out the "root cause" for this behavior.  Guess I'm not satisfied by telling myself "it's just an N thing".

Thanks,
dazed

[GAP]

Dazed,

I wrote a long answer under the other thread but I guess the thing that stood out in your post was that you didn't understand how your mother that loved you would undermine you by saying derogatory things.  First, I think it is hard to say our mother's loved us when they didn't support us emotionally.  I truly don't think they were capable of love...love means being able to empathize, to meet another person's emotional needs.  We had caregivers that were emotionally stunted.  I think what happens when they say derogatory things is they are sharing their insecurities or jealousy...that they want us to feel as insecure as they feel.

I had a bizarre experience with my mother in the presense of my brother recently that put everything in perspective.  My brother and mom were having a conversation on a topic that was not something I wanted to discuss.  I excused myself, went to the bathroom and said I hoped they were done when I got back...they weren't.  She started yelling at me...about all sorts of things, I asked her to stop and told her I didn't even agree with my brother but I certainly thought he had the right to ask the question he asked even if she didn't like the question.  It got ugly she said really mean things then left the restaurant.  I tell my brother I'm not going to discuss this with the rest of the family but I'm sick of being the one that she always goes off on and calls names when I have been nothing but nice to her and the entire family.  She calls my siblings and tells her my brother and I attacked her.  All but one sibling side with her.  She claimed I screamed at her and said terrible things.  My therapist said I would never convince her differently because she recreated the story so she would feel better.  That was a turning point for me....I always felt I didn't cause her bad behavior but this pariticular evening is was so black and white and there was a witness and I was so careful to try to stay out of the line of fire that I will never again question my sanity.  (my ex husband would have told me I somehow made her act that way since I also "made" him scream at me on a regular basis).

I don't even think they know what they are doing and I'm now convinced it is not even worth thinking about it after they have raged or said their stupid stuff.  The best revenge is to let it roll off you back and chuckle.   The few times I have tried to make sense of it with them they actually defend themselves and never apoligize.  The few times in my life I have gone off like a crazy person, I know what set me off and why I was inappropriate and I have apoligized to anyone that I may have hurt...that is what healthy, loving people do.  The people we are talking about are not emotionally healthy people.

GAP

[Hopalong]

Awww, Dazed.
I'm so sorry.

Comes a time when you don't try to understand it any more. Or maybe you do, but eventually you just swallow the whole painful reality of her absolute inability to be emotionally responsible or responsive...and you eventually, honestly, let it go.

I think if you busy yourself with finding POSITIVE support and nurturing from real women in your life, could be Ts, admired mentors, motherly church ladies, friends, whoever...that is a wonderful way to begin to let it go.

For me, it was the experience of getting to know older women who were NOT narcissistic that ultimately helped me stop hoping (even when I didn't admit I was) to get love from her that she literally doesn't have within her. Ain't gonna happen.

But that meanness on top of her emotional disability? You do NOT deserve it, and speaking up with some fire about it (not rage, just real indignation) might be good to do, if you feel you can.

hugs to you,
Hops

PS--Gap, very tempting to push her into the bathroom and lock the door...

[Gaining Strength]

please comment about how on one level, I believed her, believed that I did do something wrong, but on another level, I felt I didn't do wrong and it was the other person who was wrong.

What is the nature of this dynamic?  Is it an N thing?

Absolutely an N thing!!! and so very familiar.  My father was better at this than my mother and he really got me to believe on a deep level that if anything went wrong, it was my fault.  That one thing really underminded my wellbeing more than any other single pshycho twist he pulled

Also, why does this situation, this dynamic bug me so much?  I suppose it bugs me because not being supported (or heard and understood, or validated) by someone who loved me (Mom) makes me feel VOICELESS??   Did a lightbulb go off??

Your answer it the answer I came up with for my own experience.  We need to be supported and encouraged by our parents.  I am convinced that this need is a physical need as well as psychological.  I don't think we ever get beyond that need until it is  satisfied. And it is hard to get satisfied once we leave childhood. - That's what I think - GS

[Stormchild]

Hi GAP and Dazed... and leah and all.

What you're describing is emotional abuse. I've become convinced that 'N' and 'abuser' are pretty much interchangeable terms.

here are some links. caution advised with the first one, it may be upsetting to hear,

http://www.youarenotcrazy.com/

http://www.dvirc.org.au/whenlove/  this is a really neat site in Australia

http://pw2.netcom.com/~arrowblu/abuse.html  -- signs of abuse -- red flags.

http://www.hhhh.org/maia/lies.html  lies abusers tell their targets -- different kinds of abusers, different kinds of abuse.

http://www.hhhh.org/maia/abuse_and_recovery.html -- this is the home page for the link just above.

http://www.drirene.com/ -- a verbal abuse site, but that's emotional abuse too.

If you can 'label' the behavior as emotionally abusive, it's a massive step towards being able to stop feeling responsible for causing it - because you didn't cause it. You just happen to be in the vicinity when a target is needed, and that's not your fault.

hope this helps --

[mudpuppy]

The ones that really tick me off are the enablers and henchmen. The N at least has the feeble excuse of being mentally ill. The others are just cowards and bullies by proxy. Little sniveling yes-men who either don't care or don't know that they're dancing on the end of a string. Without cronies the N would be powerless and more important have to face himself. But the puppets are too chicken and too enamored of their own comfort to take a moral stand so they end up annihalating themselves for the jerk and spend their time taking potshots at the innocent victims of their overlord; mendicants looking for a little peace at the price of their souls. A pox on them both; preferably smallpox.

mud

[gratitude28]

Wow, storm, that first site is so pretty it shouldn't have to be about abuse. Although it is intended for women in a relationship, many of the descriptions also fit the familial mold. Lots of good stuff.

[Stormchild]

Thanks beth ((((((()))))))

I was going to put these links on your 12-step thread too, but you found 'em already

mud, the enablers that hang around an N, I think of them as the remoras that hang on sharks. Little parasites, hitching a ride so they can feast on the scraps of everything the shark destroys.

But remoras have an excuse - they were made that way - grew into that niche. Human remoras have no excuse at all.

[gratitude28]

Dazed,
I think it is even more than not supporting us, I think it is blaming us (and others) for anything and everything.They have so many rules about what is "right" or "wrong" or "attractive" or "unattractive." They don't see that their opinions are not fact. And they don't see that normal people can like part of something and not another part... Can be happy with what they have, etc. None of their statements makes sense. In the same vein that you have been blamed for the abusive behavior of a man, Ns will blame the victim of a rape (she probably wanted it or was dressed sexy), a mugging (well, what was she doing in that part of town?), anything in which a person finds him or her self the victim. And yet they are constant victims.
There just is NO SENSE to any of it dazed. Don't let idiotic statements tear at your self-esteem. They know that to say something like that will mkae us pause and look at ourselves. Could you imagine if that were said to the N???? She or he would jump right in to tell you how they are so good for the other person and have to put up with them...
((((dazed)))))

[Bones]

Hi all,

GAP, who is a member of our board, posted an answer on another thread and I'd like to explore it deeper. 

GAP, I hope you don't mind that I'm using your post, but you raised an issue that has been bugging me.  Thank you so much (((GAP))) for raising this issue.  I have a hard time processing this issue and my thoughts go round and round and drive me a bit crazy.

GAP wrote the following:

"I know what you mean about people saying you can change your behavior and then magically the N will be better.  My mother use to tell me if I could be behave differently my husband would be nicer and happier.  Just yesterday when I mentioned something he did that was typical N she said well maybe when he finds a woman that makes him happy he will be less vindictive!  I mentioned for the 100th time he is never going to be happy, he can only maintain the act for about 3 months, his abuse was real and he has treated every person he has ever had a relationship with in the same abusive manner he treated me.  She witnessed the abuse, she was on the receiving end of the abuse yet she still says stupid things indicating I somehow wasn't the right woman for him."


Here are 3 lines from GAP's answer which hit a nerve for me:

"My mother use to tell me if I could be behave differently my husband would be nicer and happier."

"..she said well maybe when he finds a woman that makes him happy he will be less vindictive!"

"...yet she still says stupid things indicating I somehow wasn't the right woman for him."

GAP has verbalized something I used to experience with my N mom.  I felt that often, my mom would take the side of my enemy.  For example, if I told mom that someone treated me badly, she would often respond with an answer that basically meant "what did you do to cause it?".  Mom assumed that I DID something to CAUSE someone to mistreat me.  I often believed her.  And yet, her assumption drove me nuts.

Please comment on how we turn to people for support and they respond by saying we caused the unpleasantness, when the evidence shows the contrary.

Also, please comment about how on one level, I believed her, believed that I did do something wrong, but on another level, I felt I didn't do wrong and it was the other person who was wrong.

What is the nature of this dynamic?  Is it an N thing?

Also, why does this situation, this dynamic bug me so much?  I suppose it bugs me because not being supported (or heard and understood, or validated) by someone who loved me (Mom) makes me feel VOICELESS??   Did a lightbulb go off??

Also, would this dynamic be called "crazymaking", "gaslighting" or "defining someone else's reality"?

Thank you everyone.  Again, thank you GAP, for helping me clarify my issues.

dazed

I don't believe that NMothers are capable of loving anyone else except themselves.

Bones

[GAP]

Bones, well said.  Unfortunately, some children  serve as narcissitic supply to their parents because they were born with personalities and traits that make the N "feel good", for those children it looks and probably feels like love(as long as they live their lives by the motto "What would "N" do?  and certainly hope for their sake they make the right choice),  For the unfortunate children that were born with traits that do not meet the needs or wants of their "N" parents we get children who grow up feeling how all of us feel or hopeful felt....unloved, unworthy, defective.  I come from a large family and 3 of us fortunatly no longer live "the Myth."  One of the choosen ones and I were attempting to discuss some of the family issues (rest assured after this discussion the weather is the only topic I will broach with him) he stated that two of our brothers decided from the time they were babies to antagonize my mother.  He claimed they could have worked harder to make her happy and help her be a better mother.  I couldn't believe my ears....I then asked what did I do to deserve the shit treatment, he had to admit I did nothing but since I was the upper half of the family mom was stressed and had to take it out on someone.  When I pointed out it was the parents job to figure out how to love the different children that are born to them regardless of their personalities he scuffed at me.  He stated our parents had set an example of how to live our lives...since I choose not to follow that example,since I didn't live in the same community they lived in, spend our money they way they spent their money, got divorced, I was should expect to be judged and disapproved of.

My mother recently decided to gather us and apoligize for her abuse," I'm sorry I was abusive, please quit living in the past and forget about your childhoods and move forward (I have never confronted her or accused her of anything)" was the general message.  One of the choosen ones piped up and said it was no wonder you were so abusive you got really bad kids, unlike your grandkids that are all great.  Mind you we all had jobs by 14, helped around the house, did well in school, never got arrested, finished college in 4 years.    I realized then that the choosen ones can't let go of the myth, Mud, I'm not sure they are not as sick as the "N"s.

I remember the day my sister converted from being my sister to being my Aunt.  It was early in my divorce processes and my parents were being brutal.  I was trying to explain something they did that was outrages and she had clearly choosen her side and it was my parents despite their clearly abusive and nonsupportive behavior.  At that moment a light bulb went off in my head, start considering her a distant aunt that is close to your mother, tell her nothing, she will only hurt you because it is too painful for her to face who our parents are and that our family isn't perfect.  When they abondon her in her time a crisis I stood behind her, talk to my parents on her behalf and listened and validated her pain...due to her N ways she couldn't do the same for me.

[Dazed1]

Hi Everyone,

Thank you all  for your responses ((())).  Each one of you has given me so much to think about and I thank each one of you for giving me your heartfelt thoughts.

Guess I lost my inner compass when I posted this because I now realize my question goes to the heart of Nism.  Duh!!  What was I thinking??  One step forward and 2 steps back.

Guess the reason why we’re all here at this board is because loved ones have abused us and that’s why were voiceless.

Guess I’m stuck on the “why” of it all and I’m not satisfied to say that they abused us because they were Ns and they themselves were abused in their childhoods and they chose not to break the cycle of abuse. 

I don’t know why I find it difficult to accept this explanation.  What am I looking for?

Maybe since I have decided to break the cycle of abuse, I can’t understand why our/my abusers did not decide to break the cycle of abuse and ditch the abuse syndrome. 

Or, maybe I can’t accept that although my parents did they best they could, on some level, they didn’t love me.


GAP
“I guess the thing that stood out in your post was that you didn't understand how your mother that loved you would undermine you by saying derogatory things.”   Yes, GAP, this is the heart of my dilemma.

“First, I think it is hard to say our mother's loved us when they didn't support us emotionally.  I truly don't think they were capable of love...love means being able to empathize, to meet another person's emotional needs.“   GAP, I fear you are correct and this makes me feel that a huge chunk of my life was a fraud, a sham.  Guess that’s why I find it sooo hard to accept.

The scenario you described at the restaurant with your mom and brother sounds like my family.  Thank goodness for your therapist.

“I don't even think they know what they are doing”.   I agree.  I always thought that my parents didn’t realize the damage that they did to me by raging at me.

“I'm now convinced it is not even worth thinking about it after they have raged or said their stupid stuff.”   My problem is that I often believed what they said to me while raging.

I’m so sorry that your sister has “become” your aunt.  My sister was also badly treated by our parents, but she refuses to discuss with me their Nism.

GAP, I hope that some day SOON, I will have your perspective on this stuff.  I’m sick of my thoughts going round and round and leading me to no conclusion.


Hops
Thank you for your warmth and understanding.

“Comes a time when you don't try to understand it any more. Or maybe you do, but eventually you just swallow the whole painful reality of her absolute inability to be emotionally responsible or responsive...and you eventually, honestly, let it go.”   Hops, wish I could get to this point.

It’s so hard to find positive support, but I’ll give it a try.

“But that meanness on top of her emotional disability? You do NOT deserve it”   I hated the meanness. 

Problem is that I can’t challenge the meanness because my parents are dead.  And, I discovered that they were probably Ns after they died.  So, I can’t challenge them, but I guess that’s good because they probably would just be mean back to me.

I guess one of my problems is discovering that my parents were probably Ns after they died.  Maybe if I discovered this while they were alive, I’d feel different, however, experiencing their wrath would also stink. 

So, maybe it’s better that I discovered their Nism after they died, but guess I feel I have no closure.  I don’t know, it’s confusing.


GS
“Absolutely an N thing!!!”   Thank you for confirming that.

“My father was better at this than my mother and he really got me to believe on a deep level that if anything went wrong, it was my fault.”   My mom did this to me.


Stormchild
“What you're describing is emotional abuse. I've become convinced that 'N' and 'abuser' are pretty much interchangeable terms.”   Thank you for confirming this. 

Problem is that when you and GS confirm the abuse, it’s like a knife in my heart, but I’m grateful for the enlightenment. 

The truth really hurts, but hopefully, in the future, the truth will help and heal me.

Storm, thank you so much for the links, they are great.  Makes me realize I gotta get back into therapy.

“If you can 'label' the behavior as emotionally abusive, it's a massive step towards being able to stop feeling responsible for causing it - because you didn't cause it. You just happen to be in the vicinity when a target is needed, and that's not your fault.”   Storm, I know you’re right when you say this, but the realization makes me feel like my life has been a sham and I don’t know why I feel this way.


Mudpuppy
Good point about the enablers.  I think that each of my parents took turns at being both N and enabler.  Dad enabled Nmom and mom enabled Ndad.


Gratitude28
“I think it is even more than not supporting us, I think it is blaming us (and others) for anything and everything. They have so many rules about what is "right" or "wrong" or "attractive" or "unattractive." They don't see that their opinions are not fact.”    I totally agree.  The rules, the rights, the wrongs make my head spin.

Yes, they are both abuser and victim, and again, this makes my head spin.


CB
“I think that at the heart of a lot of this behavior in an N, is the need to build themselves up by tearing the other person down”   YES!!

“We are pushed to "measure up" to increase their status and then we are slammed because we threaten to upstage them.”   YES!!  ARG!!  MY HEAD SPINS!!


Bones
“I don't believe that NMothers are capable of loving anyone else except themselves.”    I suppose I’m in denial on this one because the truth hurts tooo much.

Again, thank you all so much for helping me.
dazed

[GAP]

Dazed 1,

This is a long hard processes, trust me I still let rages get to me.  The trouble is "N"s take all the stuff we reveal to them when we think they are OK and then twist and turn it and throw it back at us during a rage.  Of course it hurts and we believe it, they use the secrets we shared, or the weakness we revealed and spit it back at us in a rage.  They do it on purpose to undermine our confidence and keep us walking on eggshells.  Just came back from dinner with some friends that have also been involved with "N".  One said she knew she had gotten better when she realized she didn't care if anyone liked her, and she took shit from no one.  To truly live a life of being yourself regardless of what others think and call a spade a spade when someone is out of line would be quite an accomplishment for an[ ex spouse of a N.

Gap[