you can't move on without validation

[Stormchild]

Now, I realize that not having my feelings validated while I was growing up has left me with a black hole of needy emptiness in my psyche.

Dazed - you don't come across as empty or unhealthily needy here. You come across as fiercely dedicated and brave - and both of those things in a GOOD, STRONG way.

...up until 1.5 years ago,  I have lived almost my entire life in a fog of blind denial and unawareness.

Nobody, but nobody, could say that you are unaware today. That is what matters most...

My sister also does not want to talk about the dysfunction in our FOO. I think that my sister does not even know that our FOO was dysfunctional. ...

Recently, I subtly discussed with my sister, who I believe is an N, some of the FOO dysfunction.  I didn't outright tell her "I think our parents and grandparents were Ns and our upbringing was very dysfunctional".  Instead, I reminisced about some of our parents' dysfunctional behaviors during our childhood.

In response,  my sister basically made excuses for our parents and said "That's how they were and they tried their best". ... My T said that my parents damaged my sister much more than they damaged me and I feel very badly about that.  My T also told me that my sister is mentally ill and that my parents were in denial about sister's mental illness and instead of helping her, they punished her for not being more perfect.

...   I would like to help my sister, but she's really difficult to help. ... During one of our recent arguments, my sister went into one of her typical yelling rages and she threw back at me the prior discussion I had with her about our parents' dysfunctionality.  She basically said (yelled)  "I don't want to talk about what happened 20 years ago, don't ask me about it anymore, it's over, forget about it and move on".

Dazed, it sounds as though your sister has made a choice - she is choosing to stay ill and in denial. That catchphrase about 'that's how they were and they tried their best" is the standard excuse that people make to either stay in denial or to try to keep others there. Sometimes it is true, but that realization should be reached after serious thought and consideration. When it is a knee-jerk defensive reaction, shouted at you as a way to end a discussion before it even begins -- it's unhealthy.

The other catchphrase about "not wanting to talk about what happened [20 years ago, 20 months ago, 20 weeks ago, 20 days ago, 20 hours ago, 20 minutes ago, 20 seconds ago] - forget it and move on" is a classic ploy used by abusers and sadly it is often internalized by their brainwashed targets. It keeps everything disconnected, so that the patterns of abuse never show clearly. Since they are patterns in time rather than in space, demanding that people treat every event as something unique, isolated, never before seen, is a way to 'force them to forget' or prevent them from remembering. And making connections. And seeing patterns. And recognizing the games that are being played with their hearts and minds.

So, for now, I can't discuss with sister her childhood memories.  Thus, no sharing with sister or validation from sister of hindsight impressions and my sister is the only witness.

For the moment, your sister has aligned herself with her abusers and yours. You will know that this is changing when she approaches you and wants to discuss past patterns and events.

Until that happens, you may want to proceed with caution.

((((((((((Dazed))))))))))

[Leah]

Dazed,

My heart goes out to you as I can relate to what you have shared in your posting. 

There is an inner freedom that comes with validation, that is indescribable, it's like the fog has lifted and the chains that bound us are gone.

Sad that we cannot have validation from/with our family members, but, we know the truth, we know in oiur hearts what happened, and, we have friends here who understand and are supportive - who validate our thoughts, feelings, and painful experiences, encouraging one another along the way.

With the missing piece of our jigsaw of life in place - Validation!

now the healing can begin!

Warm thoughts and wishes,

Leah

[moonlight52]

Hi all

Well I guess if I was in a situation where my FOO would even say I do not want to talk about it ,
I would be grateful but instead there is nothing but total denial.

The only problem with total denial is so many people know about the "problems " beside me.
It is beyond me how such denial can exist in people.

Of course my oldest sibling left FOO years ago and now I know why.
Now that I know  I can choose who is in my life and who is not I feel peace I never knew existed.

[Dazed1]

Hi Storm,

Thank you for saying that I’m dedicated and brave in a good, strong way.  Yes, I think I am, but what I was referring to is that I have never been truly in love with someone and have never had a love relationship that lasted more than 1 year.

I realize now that one of my problems was/is that I’m afraid of anger.  When anger happens in a love relationship, I don’t know how to deal with it, turn off and the relationship ends.  But, I’ve always had love relationships with Ns. Light bulb went on!!!  Yes, Storm, I am MUCH more aware today than I EVER WAS!!!

I haven’t even tried to seek a love relationship for the last 5 years because I’m tired of being hurt.

Thus, my emotional emptiness.

But, now that I have gained insight, knowledge of Ns and codependency and have had some therapy, I will begin to seek a love relationship.

“Dazed, it sounds as though your sister has made a choice - she is choosing to stay ill and in denial. That catchphrase about 'that's how they were and they tried their best" is the standard excuse that people make to either stay in denial or to try to keep others there.”

Yes, Storm, she is in denial and ill.  I don’t know if she will ever be well, but, I will try to help her, but I have to make sure I don’t help her in a codependent way.  AWARENESS!!

“The other catchphrase about "not wanting to talk about what happened [20 years ago, 20 months ago, 20 weeks ago, 20 days ago, 20 hours ago, 20 minutes ago, 20 seconds ago] - forget it and move on" is a classic ploy used by abusers and sadly it is often internalized by their brainwashed targets. It keeps everything disconnected, so that the patterns of abuse never show clearly. Since they are patterns in time rather than in space, demanding that people treat every event as something unique, isolated, never before seen, is a way to 'force them to forget' or prevent them from remembering. And making connections. And seeing patterns. And recognizing the games that are being played with their hearts and minds.” 

So, true.  I like the way you differentiate between time and space.  Again, it’s all about awareness, seeing patterns, making connections, remembering and being one's own witness.

Yes, Storm, I will proceed with caution regarding my sister.

Thank you for your kind thoughts.

Leah,
Thank you for your validation.  It is freedom and it is the missing piece.  Yes, onward towards healing and strength.  And, thank you for starting this topic.

Oh, Moonlight,
Until I went into therapy, I had no idea what an infectious disease denial is.  Glad you feel peace.

Love to all,
dazed

[moonlight52]

Dazed

The peace I have is now I know there is a path to healing not that I am there .
But I want to know about codependency my Dr. knows how serious the situation was
and I have seen her 2 times this week .The pain was so bad.

Now there is a light real light.... reality .
I still do not understand the denial and the turning away from healing
I just do not understand the denial.



m

[Dazed1]

Oh Moonie,

What happened?  Are you OK?  ((((((((Moonlight))))))

My T told me that my parents lived in "MASSIVE DENIAL".  When I heard this, I froze.  I wasn't sure what denial was all about and my T really scared the heck out of me when she used the word "massive".

My T told me that I was "enmeshed" with my mother and when I googled "Enmeshment", I was lead to "codependency".  I have concluded that I was enmeshed with my mother because I didnt want her to feel her pain.  That type of thinking is very codependent; see below.

Funny you should say that you want to know about codependency, because, yesterday, I spent HOURS at a web site called "Dr. Irene" and she has excellent stuff on codependency.  Here's the URL: http://drirene.com/copage.htm

Here's something from Dr. Irene on codependency:
Codependence is a set of maladaptive, compulsive behaviors learned by family members in order to survive in a family experiencing great emotional pain. In most cases alcoholism, chemical dependency, or other addictive disease is at the source of the family pain. Codependent behaviors are a set of coping behaviors that are passed from generation to generation--whether or not addiction is present--in order to survive. Although the original alcoholic/addicted person may have been a great-grandparent, family members across the next three or four generations learn a set of behaviors which help them deal with the emotional pain inherited from the original dysfunctional family unit. These behaviors, although designed to relieve pain, create pain! They constitute a deeply embedded "cognitive set" upon which codependency or dependency disorders are founded.

Another site I like is: http://sfhelp.org/site/overview.htm and here's their definition of codependce (http://sfhelp.org/pop2/codep.htm):
codependence is characterized by compulsively sacrificing your own values, preferences, friends, and identity to avoid upsetting or risking rejection by a special adult or child. "Co" notes that the condition involves two people.
        Codependents typically deny or rationalize doing this, or say "I can't help it." Usually both people are wounded survivors of low-nurturance childhoods, and don't know this or what to do about it. Because this condition effectively reduces current inner pain and amplifies it long-term, many class it as a relationship addiction. Once codependents acknowledge their harmful compulsion, they can choose to reduce it over time.

You can also get info on denial on both of these sites.  Basically, denial is a refusal to acknowledge the truth because the truth is too painful to acknowledge.  People who live in denial choose to live in a fantasy.  They can't face the truth.

Hope this helps.

Love,
dazed

[moonlight52]

Dazed

Thank you for the sites.My doctor says no contact with foo.The pain is too great .I hope they will respect this and understand .
My doctor I am seeing 2 times a week this never occurred before .The foo know why.I am fine when there is no contact.

The sites are great I am not blaming I am reading and have set up a good network of support.
I am sure if the boundaries are respected all will be good for all.

I am holding no ill will and have never been one to hold Ill feelings for long periods of time
hopefully everyone will see what is best for all and let that happen as easy as possible.

I am bipolar and this along with abuse and the trauma of the loss of my twin caused much difficulty.I have felt afraid most of my life.
Now that is turning around.

thx Dazed too cool
moon

[Hopalong]

Hi Dazed:

rushing a bit, late to work, but wanted to say to this

my sister is the only witness

You are your own witnesss. And a very clear, strong, thinking one.

hugs,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Moon, hon:

I have felt afraid most of my life.
Now that is turning around.

And it's because of your own brave standing up and saying NO, Moon.

You defended your own life and you are surviving and getting stronger all the time.
You are a brave, brave woman.

love,
Hops

[towrite]

I get told over and over ..... "forget all about it and just move on"

Not realising what I was searching for all this time, but, now I know what I was searching for ....... Validation !!

Anyone having walked through a lifetime of emotional and verbal abuse from the very ones who were supposed to love and nurture them, their family, and, to top it all, their husband too, walking through life's journey not understanding why this is happening, and, never any acceptance or acknowledgement of the abuse, cannot simply brush themselves down, forget all about it, and move on. 

Finding out and gaining knowledge about the root cause of the behaviour(s) is so very important, but, you walk around feeling lost - I have felt 'lost' for so long now.  And as you try to explain to someone who has no knowledge of the behaviour, or judges you for 'divorcing' from your Nmother, this person in whom you have confided invariably distances themselves from you, perceiving that the problem is with you!!

Alienation the occurs, resulting in feelings of despair, anguish and frustration - all because you opened up to share!

Validation is the final piece of the jigsaw.

Surely it is only after one receives Validation that the healing process can really begin. 

Afterwards, restoration can commence.

Resulting in the 'new you', whole and complete, equipped to be discerning of the behaviour(s) that is damaging to ones soul.

Then one is able to move on.

Just my thoughts and ramblings!

Leah

I know what you mean about validation! When I discovered it, it was like I could see the world in color again. It's priceless.

[Dazed1]

Hi Moonlight,

You're very welcome and I hope you're doing better.

I know you have suffered so much with the loss of your twin.  The pain must be incredible.  I have heard and understand that the loss of a twin is a particular and intense grief.  I'm so sorry for your loss and the pain.

Yes, I think the only way to deal with Ns is STRONG BOUNDARIES so that they cannot hurt us.  The strongest boundary is no contact.

I'm so glad that you feel less afraid and that your life is getting on track.  Good for you!!

Love,
dazed

[Dazed1]

Howdy Hops,

Welcome Home!  Glad you're back.  Good to hear you had a really nice time  .

You're right:  I am my own witness and I really processed and absorbed that notion this weekend.  Even if no one else saw or witnessed, I DID!!  And, that's what counts the most.

So nice of you to say that I'm clear, strong and thinkin.  Thank you for the validation.  I think you are too.

I saw you like Cat Stevens.  Me too.  I'm listening to the song "On the Road to Find Out" and the line that I'm really absorbing is "The Answer Lies within".  Yes, my answers to "what happened to me?" and "where am I going?" lie within me.  I really see that now.

love,
dazed

[Leah]

Yes, I think the only way to deal with Ns is STRONG BOUNDARIES so that they cannot hurt us.  The strongest boundary is no contact.

That really is the truth Dazed

Warm wishes,

Leah

[cheerios]

Hi, I'm reading this forum for the first time, and just wanted to comment on this:

"The other catchphrase about 'not wanting to talk about what happened [20 years ago, 20 months ago, 20 weeks ago, 20 days ago, 20 hours ago, 20 minutes ago, 20 seconds ago] - forget it and move on'  is a classic ploy used by abusers and sadly it is often internalized by their brainwashed targets. It keeps everything disconnected, so that the patterns of abuse never show clearly. Since they are patterns in time rather than in space, demanding that people treat every event as something unique, isolated, never before seen, is a way to 'force them to forget' or prevent them from remembering. And making connections. And seeing patterns. And recognizing the games that are being played with their hearts and minds."

Can you imagine if a murderer said, "let's not talk about what happened 20 years ago, 20 months ago, .....(etc.)"?  What a great way to get away with anything you wanted to!  You could just say to the Judge, forget what happened in the past, this is now.  Let's not dredge old stuff up.  What a pitiful excuse for not dealing with anything that a person doesn't want to deal with.  As mentioned, this is a classic ploy used by abusers to get you to shut up.  How nice for an abuser, to give themselves  a clean slate at will, no matter what!  You could say to your boss after you've been late twenty times, that was then, don't dredge that up....

Shows you how absurd and ridiculous that idea is if you look at it that way.

I too agree that validation is extremely important.  It's the antidote to gaslighting by abusive people who want you to think your perceptions, judgements, thinking, and feelings are wrong.

[axa]

let it go and move on.  God if only it was that simple.  I promise if I could I would.  I do not want to be in this mess, struggling with the knowledge of the sick games and abuse I have experienced.

I find it so hurtful when people will not validate my experience.  If I tell someone and they have the "get over it " attitude I feel ashamed that I opened my mouth, I feel like I am some sort of pathetic fool who was again looking for a crumb which was not available.  I know I was part of the dynamic by being in there but it was not ok for anyone to do what he did to me.  I want to scream that from the mountain top.  So few people hear this.  They make excuses, they say he was mentally ill, they say he was good to you in other ways, they say you are better off without him, they say so many things and they do not see that I was beaten and nearly broken by him.

I need validation I need to be heard I need someone else to know the truth.  I am not exaggerating.  If anything I am ashamed to tell all because I somehow took on his shame for him around his behaviour.  I was ashamed.  I did not do anything bad yet I carried the shame.

On one of our trips he put some drugs in my bag, which I carried through customs. I did not know the drugs were there.  When we got home he told me.  I got very angry with him but he joked that I did not look like a drug courier so he thought it was safe.  And if I was caught he would have owned up.  HE PUT BLOODY DRUGS IN MY BAGS.  I could not tell people this because I was ashamed.  I was ashamed that I stayed with someone who thought this was acceptable behaviour.  He minimized this by saying it was only cannibas.  I would have lost my job, I would have had a police record, I would have lost my reputation, I would have lost so much.............. so he could smoke some cannibas.  And it does not matter what I would have lost it was plain wrong and ABUSIVE.

Axa