Author Topic: Psychology heads please read  (Read 2738 times)

axa

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Psychology heads please read
« on: February 01, 2007, 10:09:53 AM »
Interesting session with my T yesterday.  What emerged is that when I am in relationship with a man I loose what she called my animus - my understanding is that this refers to the male type charateristcs in ones persona.  It was all happening so fast that I did not get her to clarify what she meant.  But I would like to discuss this here.

In relationship, my independence, strength, energy, drive all seem to dwinle.  I take on, unconsciously, some passive role.  which has little or no connection with myself in the "real world"  I am such a feminist yet I become this passive serving little woman who eventually kicks but it is as if I cannot hold the strength of myself in relationship with a man.

Ok so then what comes up is that I choose men who are ALWAYS emotionally unavailable, cruel, cold, punishing, and of course my script is played out.  I AM RIGHT MEN ARE LIKE THIS.  The adult part of me knows that there are good men in the world but I choose not to be in relationship with them.

Here comes my father again.  My mother was N alcoholic my father absent, cold withdrawn, unavailable, affairs, busy with his own stuff, etc.  I think this is so tied up with my RAGE at my father which I have transferred onto men.  I do not believe the stock answers, men are not good etc well not consciously but underneath it all I wonder. 

So my anger towards my father I hold inside of me, eating me up, set myself up with Ns who will prove to be so like dear old daddy and then I can experience my RIGHTNESS and RAGE all over again. 

Another thing has just come up for me.  I enter the relationship in my fullness and as the confusion starts I revert to the pleading, understand person.  What happens me?  Where do I go?  I may have said this before but if a woman behaved towards me the way XN did I would not have stayed for one minute of the abuse.  Where does my strength go?  Where does my power go?

All answers/replies gratefully received.

If someone can discuss animus/anima I would be very grateful.


axa

Leah

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Re: Psychology heads please read
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2007, 10:23:21 AM »
Axa,

Gosh not heard of this before, but very much interested in what it all means.

My father sounds like your father - cold, detached, aloof, unavailable, his business and money being his only priority, and appearances.   An affair (not sure whether plural or not) ... and eventual abandonment as he left to go be with his mistress and her children!

Going to go google and read up on animus/anima .

Back in a while.

Warm wishes,

Leah
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 09:14:23 PM by leah_nomoretears »
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Gaining Strength

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Re: Psychology heads please read
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2007, 10:59:49 AM »
Axa - Your post makes perfect sense.  Over 15 years ago a therapist told me that a struggle I was having with a college professor was a replay of my struggle with my father.  I was livid!  I thought it preposterous but I couldn't get the thought out of my mind.  And as I mulled it over for a couple of years my denseness finally cracked and I saw what she meant.  Like you, my father was distant and very set in his ways, unbending.  A cookie cutter  description fit that particular professor.  It would take quite some years still before I understood that what kept me repeating the same pattern with professors, employers, boyfriends, husband was that I was psychologically still locked into a struggle to try to connect with my father. 

Now I see clearly that until I gave up that need and that, albeit unconscious, desire to be in true relationship with my father I would continue to try to "right" the "wrong" of my early (pre-verbal) childhood.  I think the line from Stormchild really gets to the heart of the matter. excusing the inexcusable is part of the kit. It is part of the futile exercise of trusting the untrustworthy, seeking love from the unloving, seeking care from the uncaring, seeking mercy from the merciless.

The question then becomes, "How do I let go of my NEED to receive love and affection and nurturing from my father?" And the devastating part is that it truly is a need.  How do I let  go of something that I need?  That question has lingered for me after years of searching for the answer.  And though i am sure it can be found in books and from exceptional counselors, I actually had to find an answer for myself.  I began by acknowledging that I was not going to get what I needed.  This was not a one time deal.  I had to do this over and over for a long time.  I had to acknowledge how wrong it was, how appalling it was, how devastating it was and is.  I had to come to understand that NO ONE, not even my siblings, was going to affirm me in my understanding.  And then I had to grieve the pain of that loneliness. And even though my heart still aches over this and I still grieve, though less painfully, I came to accept that I am MUCH better off being able to fully emotionally detach from what I longed for, and deserved from my father. 

Ironically, in conversations with two different people yesterday, I learned of two women in their 40s and 50s who have not been able to emotionally free themselves from their fathers (one of whom is deceased) and they are paying terrible prices in their lives for that.  It also struck me how dramatically my perspective has changed.  Had I heard either of those stories a year or two ago I would have been emotionally sucked in but yesterday, though my heart ached for them, I could see exactly how they, themselves could free themselves independent of anything their father did or could have done.    And that IS the lesson that I read repeatedly in books that help point me to my goal.  The power to release myself is in me.  It has taken me 20 long years to get there but I never gave up the hope nor the search.  I am stubborn and that stubbornness worked against me by keeping my emotionally locked in to my father but it also kept me searching.  Until I tried absolutely everything and all the arrows kept pointing back to me, I kept hoping beyond hope that there could be some kind of reconciliation.  It was when I came across the term Narcissism that I found a framework within which to understand my father.  That pushed me into acceptance that he would never, could never change and that the change was all up to me.

This is one person's story about overcoming and letting go of the excruciating pain of growing up with an inaccessible father and the disastrous effects on so many parts of one's life.

Bones

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Re: Psychology heads please read
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2007, 11:16:57 AM »
Interesting session with my T yesterday.  What emerged is that when I am in relationship with a man I loose what she called my animus - my understanding is that this refers to the male type charateristcs in ones persona.  It was all happening so fast that I did not get her to clarify what she meant.  But I would like to discuss this here.

In relationship, my independence, strength, energy, drive all seem to dwinle.  I take on, unconsciously, some passive role.  which has little or no connection with myself in the "real world"  I am such a feminist yet I become this passive serving little woman who eventually kicks but it is as if I cannot hold the strength of myself in relationship with a man.

Ok so then what comes up is that I choose men who are ALWAYS emotionally unavailable, cruel, cold, punishing, and of course my script is played out.  I AM RIGHT MEN ARE LIKE THIS.  The adult part of me knows that there are good men in the world but I choose not to be in relationship with them.

Here comes my father again.  My mother was N alcoholic my father absent, cold withdrawn, unavailable, affairs, busy with his own stuff, etc.  I think this is so tied up with my RAGE at my father which I have transferred onto men.  I do not believe the stock answers, men are not good etc well not consciously but underneath it all I wonder. 

So my anger towards my father I hold inside of me, eating me up, set myself up with Ns who will prove to be so like dear old daddy and then I can experience my RIGHTNESS and RAGE all over again. 

Another thing has just come up for me.  I enter the relationship in my fullness and as the confusion starts I revert to the pleading, understand person.  What happens me?  Where do I go?  I may have said this before but if a woman behaved towards me the way XN did I would not have stayed for one minute of the abuse.  Where does my strength go?  Where does my power go?

All answers/replies gratefully received.

If someone can discuss animus/anima I would be very grateful.


axa

As a psychology student, my guesstimate might be that subconsciously we want to resolve the deep-seated issues that we have had with our parents since birth.  So we probably uncounsciously are attracted to people who remind us of our parents and, with the dysfunctional relationship re-enacted, we then try to "fix" what we think we did wrong with our parents.  It then becomes an exercise in frustration and futility.  (I've done it too!)

I Googled animus/anima and located the following website:

http://www.cnr.edu/home/bmcmanus/anima.html

If I understand the concept correctly, animus/anima refers to the traits that a person has that "goes against type" (i.e. even though I'm a female, I tend to be a "do-it-yourselfer" in fixing things around the house rather than depending on my boyfriend to do it.  My boyfriend tends to be nurturing instead of being the "strong, silent, type" that people tend to stereotype men with.

I hope that makes sense.

Bones

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Re: Psychology heads please read
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2007, 12:51:02 PM »
As a psychology student, my guesstimate might be that subconsciously we want to resolve the deep-seated issues that we have had with our parents since birth.  So we probably uncounsciously are attracted to people who remind us of our parents and, with the dysfunctional relationship re-enacted, we then try to "fix" what we think we did wrong with our parents.  It then becomes an exercise in frustration and futility.  (I've done it too!)

Bravo, Amen.  That's what I was trying to say.  Thanks Bones.

isittoolate

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Re: Psychology heads please read
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2007, 03:07:23 PM »
Bravo on the research and postings.

Boy! Our FOO seems to enter everywhere.

Izzy

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Re: Psychology heads please read
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2007, 08:28:09 PM »
Hi axa

this will be short... I'm fighting off some kind of ick, there's a flulike thing hitting where I work, and I'm exhausted, but I did want to reply about the animus/anima

here is an excellent link: http://www.cnr.edu/home/bmcmanus/anima.html

and a quick quote from the page:

Quote
The Anima is the personification of all feminine psychological tendencies within a man, the archetypal feminine symbolism within a man's unconscious. The Animus is the personification of all masculine psychological tendencies within a woman, the archetypal masculine symbolism within a woman's unconscious.

The anima and animus draw their power especially from the collective unconscious, but they are also conditioned by a person's individual experiences. They therefore have three components:

     an innate, unconscious "predisposition for imaging contrasexually" (Wehr 64)—the feminine/masculine archetypes

     images and symbols of femininity/masculinity culturally transmitted through mythology, art, fairy tales, religions, etc.
     (themselves heavily influenced by the archetypes)

    personal experiences of the opposite sex

... The unindividuated man identifies with those personal qualities that are symbolically masculine; he develops these potentialities and to some extent integrates their unconcious influences into his conscious personality. However, he does not recognize qualities that are symbolically feminine as part of his own personality but rather projects them onto women. He will project his anima—those particular characteristics and potentialities that are significant components of his personal unconscious and therefore carry a special emotional charge—onto a few women for whom he will then feel a strong and compelling emotion (usually positive but occasionally negative). Infatuation (an instant, powerful attraction for a woman about whom he knows little) is one of the signs of anima projection, as is a compulsive possessiveness.

 ...

I'm very Jungian in my outlook, wish I had time to write more about this. Your animus is going to be heavily influenced by your father because of how he emotionally abandoned you... and you may be repeatedly drawn to men who have those qualities until you find a way to incorporate your own 'male' type qualities into your character; in other words, you seek 'completion' through finding the perfect male for you, until you become your own completion.

At which time, paradoxically, an incredible partner often arrives in your life.

My t's are dotted and my eyes are crossed, so I'm going to call it a night - hope this helps. If you do a google search on the terms 'animus anima Jung' you will find many good links.


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Bones

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Re: Psychology heads please read
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2007, 12:39:38 AM »
As a psychology student, my guesstimate might be that subconsciously we want to resolve the deep-seated issues that we have had with our parents since birth.  So we probably unconsciously are attracted to people who remind us of our parents and, with the dysfunctional relationship re-enacted, we then try to "fix" what we think we did wrong with our parents.  It then becomes an exercise in frustration and futility.  (I've done it too!)

Bravo, Amen.  That's what I was trying to say.  Thanks Bones.

You're welcome, GS!

Bones

moonlight52

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Re: Psychology heads please read
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2007, 01:04:23 AM »
Axa

There's alot you can do to bring out the male side of your being .

I was told the same thing by my first t.... too feminine and my t suggested I do drawings of medicine wheels with very strong colors and shields of protection etc.


I am  trying to understand the balance of masculine and feminine within and it  is so interesting as Storm says reading Jungian thoughts on this subject is most helpful.


blessings in the light
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 02:26:08 PM by moonlight »

axa

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Re: Psychology heads please read
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2007, 04:36:07 AM »
Thank you all so much for such interesting insights.

In the world whereby I do not have a relationship with men I find that if anything my "male" characteristics are quite strong.  But when I get into a relatioship I become so passive.  I read with interest all that you have written.

GS

I keep rerunning the old pattern of my dad have been aware of this but struggling with the integration so that I stop this.

Seeking completion by finding the perfect male.............THAT IS IS.  The only time I have felt whole in my life has been when I have been in a relationship.  Like I could relax and breath at some core extremely young level.  It is the seeking completion is what much of my life has been about.  Stormchild this has been so useful.  I cannot thank you enoug.

Bones everyone thans

axa

towrite

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Re: Psychology heads please read
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2007, 12:57:22 PM »
Oh, Lordy, axa. I was so terrified of my N father's rage all my life, that the same thing happened to me. I could not hold my own with men in a rel'ship, I just shrank. My personality seemed to disappear, all I did was wait on him - or him's - (more than one obviously). The men weren't mean, but they lost interest quickly - there was no one "home" in me. I tried to second-guess what they wanted and needed all the time, just like my N father had expected. Never asked anything for myself. I was a blob.

I hope you can get a grip on the wonderful side of you and believe that's what people came to see! My father's dead (two years) and I still hate him.

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Bones

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Re: Psychology heads please read
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2007, 01:14:51 PM »
Thank you all so much for such interesting insights.

In the world whereby I do not have a relationship with men I find that if anything my "male" characteristics are quite strong.  But when I get into a relatioship I become so passive.  I read with interest all that you have written.

GS

I keep rerunning the old pattern of my dad have been aware of this but struggling with the integration so that I stop this.

Seeking completion by finding the perfect male.............THAT IS IS.  The only time I have felt whole in my life has been when I have been in a relationship.  Like I could relax and breath at some core extremely young level.  It is the seeking completion is what much of my life has been about.  Stormchild this has been so useful.  I cannot thank you enoug.

Bones everyone thans

axa

You're most welcome, Axa!

Bones