What do I do?

[Discounted Girl]

Skidz, your postings have had a deep impact on me. You know what? I want to tell you first of all how sweet you sound and what a kind heart you have. I would never think you have to worrry about the moral outcome of any child you raise. Your mother sounds like one of those monsters that come from a dark hole that sensitive people cannot fathom. I don't think it's a genetic thing, it's a nasty, mean and wicked spirit that lives in them. There is nothing you can do, never could and nothing I can do to save them.

I hear the guilt in your words, I too felt the pain of guilt. I felt guilty for not liking my mother, for knowing she was treating me wrong and I was in a kind of frozen position. I felt/feel anger at her for the pain she caused me, the pain of her rejection -- realization of the lies she told sent ripples of shame and embarassment through me. Depression comes from overly sensitive minds, or it may be that overly sensitive minds come from depression, but it sounds like these are your struggles. Love yourself and your children, have a connection with your mother if you want to, but realize she will never change and it has nothing to do with strokes, age, station in life, etc. Your instincts tell you it is dangerous to be around her. Your health is suffering very obviously. You feel guilty because she is at a helpless stage in her life and you feel it is your moral responsibility to provide for her care. So be it, but don't invest too much of yourself into it -- save that for your children and a loving spousal relationship, and most of all, save it for yourself. Be gentle, kind and loving to yourself. You are special, you are worthy, you didn't do anything wrong.

[Wildflower]

Hi skidz,

Your mother really does sound like a hands-down, no-questions NPD.  I think all the other posters are dead-on in their support of your finding a way to let her go.  I know that's so, so hard.  It's nearly impossible to see this living human being suffering (most likely self-imposed) and not hope the best for them - for your relationship with them.  And of course, the threat of suicide puts you under immediate pressure to resolve all your feelings at once.  Ugh.

One very concrete thing that has helped me hold on to my resolve with my father is the memory of something really hurtful he said to me.  We were fighting one night a couple of years ago and all of a sudden he just came out and said, "You know, you were a loveless child from the very beginning."  I caught my breath and slammed down the phone (something I'd never done before).  I realized in that instant that it was never, ever me he was attacking.  He didn't know me.  And WHO SAYS THAT TO THEIR OWN CHILD???

In fact, who does what narcissists do to their children??  It's outrageous.

So now when I start to see him as a sympathetic character who deserves more respect and caring than I give him, I remember that one sentence, and my blood runs cold - and I remember who he is, and who I am to him.

Maybe I was lucky to have one crysallizing experience, but I bet not.  Maybe you could find your own similar experience - and hold on to it!  For the sake of your pregnancy, your family, your health.  She does not care about you.  If she did, she would be worried as ** about your child.

(Whew, got myself worked up there)

[surf14]

I just want to (gently) put this on the table: what's the worst thing that could happen? What do you fear? My guess is that perhaps you are concerned that your mother will die on "your watch" and you will feel a tremendous amount of guilt. Is this it?
Hi Skidz;
Your story touched me deeply as well.  I am going back to this quote by Seeker because if you can really tap into the answer to this question it
 may help cinch what it is that keeps you 'hooked' into caretaking your mom despite the destructive treatment.  It also may hold the answer for you as to how to let her go.  I have a feeling this is the crux of it.  Good luck.  surf

[Anonymous]

"You know, you were a loveless child from the very beginning."


that took my breath away, it is similar to something my mother said about me when I was about eighteen, just before I cut ties with her.
I couldn't believe that she would think a helpless baby ought to give her something.
( I don't think she was a narcissist, just a very harsh and immature person )

[Anonymous]

"BUT and thats the big one even my brother is afraid of her. Yep I just answered that she still has that power. "

you are taking that power away from her by withdrawing yourselves. And you need to. The effect of such violence is devastating to the mind and body. Especially being pregnant, after a miscarriage, you don't need that stress.
Let her work out solutions to her own problems and you take extra good care of yourself right now.

[skidz]

I hear the guilt in your words, I too felt the pain of guilt. I felt guilty for not liking my mother, for knowing she was treating me wrong and I was in a kind of frozen position. I felt/feel anger at her for the pain she caused me, the pain of her rejection -- realization of the lies she told sent ripples of shame and embarassment through me. Depression comes from overly sensitive minds, or it may be that overly sensitive minds come from depression, but it sounds like these are your struggles. Love yourself and your children.

My sister once told me that mom was the Queen of guilt. At that time I wasnt sure what she meant. I then really began to "listen" to her. Holy moly....She is the best at it. She never comes out and says it. She is like one of my labs she just sits there and stares like I am supposed to read her mind. I became rebellious and stopped.

[skidz]

Hi skidz,

 And of course, the threat of suicide puts you under immediate pressure to resolve all your feelings at once.  Ugh.

Actually right now I jump everytime the phone rings. I am terrified the neighbor has found her in the garage with the hose attatched to the car.

One very concrete thing that has helped me hold on to my resolve with my father is the memory of something really hurtful he said to me.  We were fighting one night a couple of years ago and all of a sudden he just came out and said, "You know, you were a loveless child from the very beginning."  I caught my breath and slammed down the phone (something I'd never done before).  I realized in that instant that it was never, ever me he was attacking.  He didn't know me.  And WHO SAYS THAT TO THEIR OWN CHILD???

Right there, that statement runs through my head all the time. Hooraaaay for you, that you slammed the phone on him. That must have ticked him off.

In fact, who does what narcissists do to their children??  It's outrageous.

So now when I start to see him as a sympathetic character who deserves more respect and caring than I give him, I remember that one sentence, and my blood runs cold - and I remember who he is, and who I am to him.

Maybe I was lucky to have one crysallizing experience, but I bet not.  Maybe you could find your own similar experience - and hold on to it!  For the sake of your pregnancy, your family, your health.  She does not care about you.  If she did, she would be worried as ** about your child.

You know you are so absolutely right about that. When she is here, every morning she trys to be "nice". Within seconds I know she can turn on a dime. She attacked me verbally and physically on the toilet one morning because I made the mistake of saying good morning to her. I was 12. That is the one thing that runs over and over. Especially when she asks if I can even manage a smile in the morning. I just want to scream at her about that incident and the impact it has made on me in the morning while she is around. Every single time she starts to sit down she says "oh me" I think to myself yep its always you isnt it....... I see a pattern here.....
S

(Whew, got myself worked up there)

[skidz]

Thank you for the support. It is so sad to see so many people impacted by N's.
It was so easy to walk away from my father. Even as a child I had alot of anger towards him. At the age of ten I resolved to just stay away from him.
 
Mom is a different story and I suspect my father was the way he was because of her. It doesnt excuse it but it brings some light on to the subject.
When I was seven years old my mother almost died from cancer. She was in the hospital for over four months. I was so sad and scared. No one ever told me what was truly going on.
She told me once that when she was pregnant with me my father wanted her to end the pregnancy. She said that it was turmoil with him. She said she contemplated suicide at that point too. But then she kept thinking about me.
These two incidents she has said that it is me that kept her alive. Hmmmmm any suggestions?

I am truly so angry with her and the stuff she shoved down my throat as a child and adult. Believe me, I go over and over this in my head while she is around. She cant understand why I am so quiet during these times. She has no clue that I just want to unload every single account I have.
The day my daughter died I wanted to place her body in my mothers arms and say look what your selfishness did. I asked you to put your stupid dog in the garage yet you ignored my request and kept on being the center of attention. You know during those moments she just kept talking about her pain and how it is affecting her. Oh my God that was my child and she only thought about herself....
You see everyone involved in the case was so great and let me hold my darling until 11:30 that night.
They pronounced her at 6:00 P.M. My best friends mother is the one that stood by me and comforted me. She cried with me and held me. When I had to hand my darling to the coroner she never let go of me she let me crumble in her arms and mom was out wandering around. Ok I am choking now.
Thanks again for the support. I cant believe the understanding and compassion here.
Skiddlez

[Wildflower]

Hi Skiddlez,

I just want you to know that you've been in my thoughts all morning.  I was choking, too, reading about the death of your daughter.  That must have been so, so awful.    I can hardly imagine.  

I want to suggest something regarding your mom that may be out in left field, and I won’t take offense if you or anyone else on this board thinks what I’m about to say is totally out of line (and don't hesitate to let me know if I am), but here goes.

As a general rule, I don’t think it’s a good idea to pigeon-hole people and therefore be blind to what makes them unique.  When it comes to Ns, though, I think that sometimes it’s necessary to view them first and foremost as Ns – because so much of what they do is crazy and disorienting.  Impossible to make sense of.  Impossible to believe.

So if you look at your mom not as a normal mother but as an Nmom, think about why an N might say that your father was the one who wanted to get rid of you, but she was the one who wanted to save you – and in fact, you’re the only reason she’s alive.  Two things here.  1) Is it possible that this was a move to divide you and your father, as Ns often do to divide siblings?  2) Isn’t that an awfully heavy burden to carry around – that you’re the only reason she’s stayed alive this long?

Take care of yourself, Skiddlez.  You're in my thoughts and prayers.

[seeker]

Hi Skiddlez,

I join Wildflower in offering you love and hugs.  And concern.

You are carrying an awfully heavy burden.  Truly.  The separation from your dad, the weird brainwashing of your mother, and the loss of your daughter.  And no protection for the young girl you were.  The loss of your daughter seems like a very tragic extension of the treatment you yourself received.  

I'm sorry.  I feel very strange and remote writing to you about your enormous pain.  I wish we here could work some magic to let you know that it is so important to take care of you, your life.  Your mother has brainwashed you into feeling responsible for her life vs. the other way around!  You do not have to take care of anyone at your own expense!
You have already experienced one of the worst tragedies a person can have in life. The loss of a child.  

But I also know that you are the one on the "front lines".  She does seem like a truly dangerous person.  Far be it for me to advise you here except to say that it seems like you and your family need protection from the viciousness and support to work through the overwhelming issues you face.  I hope some local authorities can help you, if you want this.

More hugs, Seeker

[Anonymous]

Wildflower and Seeker,
Thank you for the support and understanding. Those who havent experienced this, just dont understand. My closest friend especially. She doesnt think that I should walk away from this. She says that I should enjoy the time I have left with my mom. Mom is well behaved and funny around her.

I dont think that my mom seperated me from my father to begin with. She was never really around until I was 9. She worked sixteen hours a day and then slept the other time or she was off doing her own thing. My father's actions seperated us. He was not a concerned or loving father ever. He was a very demanding, demeaning, horrible monster. Oh the stories I have..... That is neither here nor there. Taking care of mom started after she left my father...  

Now for the big one. Here goes......
My oldest is now seventeen years old. I got pg with her when I was 19. Her father and I married as a result.... Her father joined a cult during my pregnancy and became verbally abusive because I refused to join. I left him when she was six months old. There is one big novel there.... Her father disappeared after she was two and re-entered her life after my second daughter passed on. There was one big custody battle after another and each time he used the death of my daughter as a weapon....Fianlly at the age of 14 he gained custody of my daughter... Another novel there... Lets just say it is a severe case of PAS and Stockholm Syndrome.... I had to sell everything I owned for legal fees alone. I worked three jobs as well. Eventually I figured out that I could no longer fight this because of the pain it was causing my daughter. In the meantime the relationship between my mother and my daughter was emerging. My friends were telling me that my daughter always spoke so highly of me. I couldnt figure this out for the longest time. My intentions were never to be placed where I didnt want to be. Long story short.
I admire my daughter for having the courage to come out and say that I was destroying her piece by piece due to the fighting with her father. My mother was at the bottom telling my daughter how mucc of a monster her father was. I too was just as guilty.. She would come home with questions about the stories her father told her about our divorce and what took place afterwords. My poor daughter was the go between and in order for this to stop she made the choice to live with her father. Instead of LISTENING to my daughter I fought it all the way. Her father's picture is next to the NPD description in the dictionary... I had no idea that poor baby was fighting four monsters. Her grandmother, her father, her stepmother and I. She did what was best for her. I havent seen my daughter for close to two years now. The last time I spoke to her she was distant and then sent me a nasty e-mail. Later she told my sister, that her stepmother helped her with the e-mail.
 I have backed out of this for her sake. She gets the short end of the stick in all of this. Deep down I know she has no other choice but to show that she hates me for her survival. I know that I am just as responsible for this.
My husband has stood by me this whole entire time. There were three different occasions that he overheard what my ex husband said to me when he thought we were alone. My husband thought I was making most of it up because, no one is capable of what I said he had done over the years. My husband  was simply white after the first time he heard what the ex said he would do to me.....
As long as he thinks he has the upper hand in this, my daughter is safe from physical harm. There is alot of emotional harm. She is part of his cult now. She was an honor student and in so many extracarricular activities while with me. She has now quit school and doesnt leave the home without her family. Several people that have been witness to her growing up have called the department of social services where they reside but nothing is ever done. The ex has many contacts, I am not going any further with that. I hold the hope of one day she will return. I know this is a novel, but it really is in short form.
The point to this is the last time my mother was here she told me how angry she was with my daughter and how dare she do what she did to HER. I simply said she did nothing to you mother, she did what she did for her survival. That brought on fireworks.
Looking back I realize my mother fed my daughter so much. My daughter placed me where she did to protect me because my mother was feeding her horrible abuse stories about her father. I did not want my daughter to ever know the details of my life with her father. Her father and stepmother were feeding her details of our life together. No wonder she was so confused and hurt. Instead of putting a stop to it I only added fuel to the fire by feeding her father what he wanted most. Add to that the death of her sister which she blamed herself for. Her father added more guilt for her as well. So you see my life has been full of N's. Most times I take the burden on as being the N in all of this. It took many counciling sessions to overcome that belief. Sometimes it creeps back in and I become my own worst inner critic.
My mother was there through the fight of the seperation, divorce and the custody battles. She stood by me and never once waivered in her support. Little did I know she was whispering in my daughters ear the whole time that she she should worship her and I.
If only I could turn back time.......My daughters only worry right now she should be what she wants in life.
Not what is in the best interest of her father.
I am sorry about the novel. I had to unload that today.
I blame myself for what happened to my daughter. There is no one else to blame in this. She did what she had to do to surivive. She chose to protect me against her father. I told her many times that it was up to me to be the adult in this not her. Little did I know what my mom was doing. I had I known she never would have been a part of any of this.
I guess the only thing I can offer to anyone is keep your children safe from the harm an NPD can do. If anyone is going through a divorce with an N do what you can to keep your children safe. Dont give the N what they want, simply walk away without saying a thing to them or your children.
 Kids are the smartest people I know and they will figure it out for themselves eventually. Telling them about occurances in your marriage will only cause them further harm. The N can make you look like a horrible person in your childs eyes. It can and all probability turn your children against you.
Keep them safe and keep your home a safe enviorment for them. Let them vent their anger but dont fuel the anger by telling them what their parent did to you. No matter how hard it is for you STOP..... Believe me it works. My son was born to my second husband and I. His father and I divorced when he was five. His father hardly ever comes around to see him. His dad has many issues with the death of our daughter and has yet to start his grieving process. I am very angry with his father for neglecting the relationship with my son, but I say nothing to my son. When my son asks me why, I only tell him that your father loves you. That he is in no way shape or form responsible for the choices his father makes.
The best day my son and I had was when his father was coming around because had a new girlfriend. My son asked me if he could call her mom. I said of course do what ever makes you feel comfortable. He asked me if that made me mad. I said of course not, I know who I am. My son smiled and hugged me. That was all there was to that. I saw the security in my son with that simple statement.
My daughter is the one to be commended in this. She brought this all to the top.  Had she not, I probably would have screwed up my sons life as well. I was following my mothers footsteps, was that the biggest wake up call for me.  
Thanks again for listening.
Skiddlez