loving the self-absorbed

[pandora]

On another note, I just read the book "loving the self-absorbed" by Nina Brown, about strategies for coping with a partner with NPD or strong N traits.  

It actually is somewhat depressing, as the premise is that you should give up hope of them changing, and concentrate on strategies to protect yourself.  Much of that advice runs totally against the usual advice for improving marital communication - instead it is about establishing emotional distance and learning NOT to engage.  

It makes me wonder if one of the reasons my marriage became even more difficult over the past few months is that I began to communicate more openly and make more attempts to engage - evidently that can just feed the N and make his words and actions even more hurtful to you.  

I think the book is very well done, and the advice is probably right on.  However, it is making me question my marriage more than ever - I don't want to be putting up barriers for the next 30 years.  Those of you who are living with an N and can't leave or don't want to might find it very helpful.

[seeker]

Hi Pandora,

Sounds like you handled the situation pretty well this morning.  

the premise is that you should give up hope of them changing, and concentrate on strategies to protect yourself

This is it in a nutshell.  Your description of the conversation this a.m. looked to me like he was using any cards in his hand to get you back under control.  It's all an empty game to control resources and N supply.  

You might want to also read Controlling People by Patricia Evans.  She does a great job of portraying N and Npartners as a child with a teddy bear.  When "teddy" is good, teddy is held and/or put on the shelf to be ready for whenever the child needs it.  When "teddy" is bad, the child can rage and throw "teddy" against the wall, rip a nose off, without suffering any consequences.  Your H sounds like he cannot acknowledge or handle any consequences of his behavior.  The evidence of "otherness" like having a job or dressing the way you want, is reason to dismiss you in favor of other "toys".

Yes, it is depressing to contemplate a marriage or any relationship without  trust or open communication.  You hit the nail on the head.  Don't let him headtrip you about "having made your decision".  Because it's true, it is your choice to stay or go.  So what if he is trying to position you as the Bad Guy if you leave?  That is just for his own benefit.  If he needs to play Victim, who cares?  There are no historians writing this down.  You will know how it really played out.  You have your own truth, your own perspective, and know what it takes to make a relationship work the way you need it to.  Don't let him tell you what to think (or us, for that matter!   )  Peace, Seeker

[pandora]

thanks seeker.  I was pretty emotional, but able to state my position.  I really don't think N gets it at all that I really would leave him.  But that is not my responsibility.

N just sent me an email straight from the Twilight zone, but that's another story.  He is trying to be nice, I guess.  Expresses disappointment that I am losing my will to try and that I have not really "met him halfway".  OMG!  

I talked with our therapist about what I read in the book - he said this is one case where couples therapy actually accentuates the problems.  He confirmed my growing feeling that each session gets more and more bizarre.  So even if I feel that I am the one going crazy, it's not true!  He is honest enough to tell me that there is almost no chance that N will change or improve, and that I need to decide if I can live with it or not.

So seeker, I think you are right and the ball is in my court.  I'll just have to get through the next few days with the aid of venting to this forum, and perhaps a few strong drinks.

[Anonymous]

Pandora, you wrote:

"Much of that advice runs totally against the usual advice for improving marital communication - instead it is about establishing emotional distance and learning NOT to engage.

It makes me wonder if one of the reasons my marriage became even more difficult over the past few months is that I began to communicate more openly and make more attempts to engage - evidently that can just feed the N and make his words and actions even more hurtful to you...."

and

"I talked with our therapist about what I read in the book - he said this is one case where couples therapy actually accentuates the problems. "

This is quite interesting to me, b/c I had read some things about "bullies" for a while.  There are some major websites about bullying in the workplace, which is also called "mobbing," in England.   The authors call it "the serial bully."  Anyway, I have had bullies in my last two apartment complexes.  Also in workplace situations, almost all the ones I worked at.    And in grade school, too.

So the last place I lived, I had to put up with two bullies, essentially - the man downstairs, and the manager, who threatened to kick ME out b/c I complained about his harassment -- even though she knew about him, his reputation amongst the other tenants, his behavior and SHE had been harassed by him when she was a new manager!  She even told me that!

But still, she wanted us both (i.e. the bully and myself) to go to mediation.  But the Bully websites advise AGAINST going to mediation with a bully, for precisely the reasons you write above -- it gives them ammo to use against, YOU, and in NO WAY is helpful to you or to improving the situation. That is because the bully has no intention of communicating, or getting better communication, or being honest, when s/he goes in to the mediation session/s.  The bully is only looking to make themself look good, look willing to improve our situation, and look the VICTIM look bad by comparison to the victims greatness as a neighbor/boss/co-worker, or whatever they happen to be.

In that case, I refused to go to mediation b/c, I told the manager, "of professional advice against it," and also b/c the tenants organization had told me that this particular mgr had a reputatoin for kicking people out, after they went to mediation in good faith.  Obviously, the bully had not gone in good faith, and I knew that.

Does anyone think that "serial bully" and "narcissism" are similar, or the same?  Has anyone else read about serial bullies?  Or had experience being bullied by them?

Flo

[Anonymous]

Flo, I think it was good advice not to go to mediation with a bully. Especially once you have established in your own mind that they definitely are a bully. I've had very similar advice that you had. The person who recommended to me not to go to counselling/mediation was the other person's therapist of all people. The reason that they gave was because they believed I was genuine and they also believed that the other person was disingenuous. Our situation was more of a personal nature, but the bottom line was that I was the more vulnerable one emotionally and physically at the time.

Because the other party did not have my or our best interests at heart it would only cause me tremendous pain and anxiety and place me in an even more vulnerable situation physically. This person was a fully paid up member of the NPD society, with a doctor's certificate to prove it.

I on the other hand was a limp wristed, lily-livered, co-dependant, dysfunctional pathetic supply source at the time. (quoting Vaknin's term, who I also have some difficulty with.) I never intended to become like this in that relationship, but I did. This was somebody who I loved immeasurably, believed in with all my heart and who hurt me deeply. When I was hurt he scoffed and ridiculed me for being weak, and I can see now that I was and he was right in that department. No more though.

But I believe from that experience and from being on the other side too where I have been called on since to help other close family members deal with 'serial bullies' that it is a form of narcissum or even NPD. What do you think? One day I think the experts will conclude that children who manage to, and get away with bullying other kids and bullying their way through school eventually grow up to be fully paid up members of the Narcissistic or even the NPD community.

Maybe it should be headed off at this stage, as small children, but I don't think the awareness is out there yet, in the general community. I think with the awareness growing in the global community of the effects of Narcisissum and NPD in the community as a whole it will unearth in the future a lot more concrete evidence to support the theory that the signs are obvious in childhood, to teachers and parents etc. I think they are obvious. What do you think?

Did you move out of that last place you lived willingly or were you 'forced' out? I know I read in one of your earlier posts that you have found a good place to live where you are really happy and it's a multi-cultural environment and where you even have jam sessions.

One of my children's teachers once told me that she thought the playground lunch-hour did more harm than good. She said that after her 24 years of teaching this was the firmest conclusion she'd come to. She said that in the classroom it was structured and superivsed and virtually no psychological damage from child to child was possible. But that in her experience children left unsupervised did immeasurable damage to each other. The damage usually caused by the same children. Because they can get away with it, without controls and adequate monitoring in place. That struck me, 'because they can get away it'. My, don't they change their tune when they are being observed, or called to account.

Imagine the bully building supervisor for example. Who's monitoring him in his fiefdom? No-one? Then try getting together with him into mediation. How could or would he ever admit to being a tyrant? He couldn't. He would lose his whole identity if he admitted that. And possibly find himself liable. That would be too catastrophic for him. What would he do then? No, he has to lean heavily on the "I'm misunderstood" and "Nobody knows how hard this job is for me" or "I'm only trying to be fair to all" crap. Or just plain lie and distort and re-write history. Oh how familiar!  

No, it's better if he blames you, and twists you and turns you, and manipulates your underbelly up for peircing. That is his 'modus operandi.' Unfortunately, if and when we find ourselves in less powerful roles with these types of people, the best thing we can do for our own self-preservation is to admit our limitations and move out and away, as far away from them as possible and find safer and hopefully happier ground.
With bullies that saying or poem applies so well, from St Francis or St Augustus or whomever,

'Accept the things you cannot change, have the courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to know the difference.'

all the best Flo.

Guest

[pandora]

I am glad that there has been so much great discussion here.  It is interesting that other people have had similar experiences, thank you all for sharing.

  We have our last therapy session this afternoon before N leaves, so we will see how it goes.  He has been making statements about how he wants a good relationship (something I am responsible for supplying him, no doubt - you see how cynical I have become!) and being very physically affectionate.  

FYI, I think there are several other books by Nina Brown, one of which focuses on dealing with an N parent (children of the self-absorbed) and perhaps another that focuses more on dealing with people in the work place.  Her credentials are very good (she is a professor at some Eastern university) - so I think her work is academically/scientifically sound and less "pop" psychology, if that is important to you.

[Anonymous]

Do you mind if I back-pedal a bit here,to what Seeker said above,about not minding if the N paints you as the Bad Guy because you leave? I have recently 'left' my possible N because the pain was just too much for me.How do I get to the stage where I genuinely don't care whether or not he thinks badly of me for 'abandoning' him?

[pandora]

Guest,

If I knew the answer to that I would be glad to tell you.  That is something I am struggling with too.  Maybe someone who has moved through this process can give some insight?

It does help me a little to talk to friends and family, who will tell me that I am NOT a bad person if I leave, that they know that I have done all I can, and that NO ONE could be held at fault for not being able to "make it work" in this situation.

[Anonymous]

I have recently 'left' my possible N because the pain was just too much for me. How do I get to the stage where I genuinely don't care whether or not he thinks badly of me for 'abandoning' him?

If you start a process of knowing yourself better, focusing on your own needs, thoughts, feelings, likes, and dislikes; you will start to become more autonomous. His opinions about your actions will diminish in importance. Then you will have your own opinion about whether or not you're bad.

bunny

[Anonymous]

I have recently 'left' my possible N because the pain was just too much for me. How do I get to the stage where I genuinely don't care whether or not he thinks badly of me for 'abandoning' him?

If you start a process of knowing yourself better, focusing on your own needs, thoughts, feelings, likes, and dislikes; you will start to become more autonomous. His opinions about your actions will diminish in importance. Then you will have your own opinion about whether or not you're bad.

bunny

I agee with bunny. And all of this takes time, because the focus often for so long has been on pleasing the other party, focusing on their needs, learning about them, their feelings, likes and dislikes, trying to accomodate them, and/or our needs as a couple. And often just plain old ignoring our own needs as an individual. Think what we would be like if we had ever botherd to get to know ourselves and please ourselves the same way we have fawned and doted and listened and met other's needs.

I think if we decide to stay in a difficult relationship, we still need to take time out to know ourselves, our own needs, thoughts, feelings, likes, dislikes, just as bunny said, and establish, understand and then accept our own identity, faults and all. And place these on an equal footing of importance in our relationships. Our relationships can only become healthier.

Why are we able to be made to feel the bad guy even when we know we haven't been. "Taking the blame, is our middle name."

So often the pain they complain that they feel, the cries of foul-play "You've ruined me/us", stem from them rejecting our attempts at self-preservation and self-discovery. Outsiders can't be expected to know or understand that. Family is a different matter though, I expect a bit more support from them than the girls at tennis.

The old habits can linger, even after we leave a partner physically or emotionally, of still of focusing more on the partner's or ex-partners's needs than our own. I think that produces the feeling of being the bad guy, and not wanting to feel or look like the bad guy, we can still get sucked into caring what they and others think.

Time and a shift of focus onto becoming acquainted or re-aquainted with our own needs, removes this feeling. We grow out of or away from it and eventually leave it behind. It's harder I think where joint issues are still being addressed, property settlements, children and so on. Time and distance is a great healer. That's my experience.

Hmmm, there is another thought deep down in there, but I just can't jag it. It's like a little fish nibbling on the line. I'll just let it keep nibbling and then maybe Ill jag it and reel it in.

Guest

[Karin]

Expect things (and your husband) to change Pandora, as I heard the same statements when my N and I first separated. (That I was giving up and that I hadn't met him halfway etc.) I also was told that he 'wants to have a good relationship' with me and I wanted that too. However, his  financial actions that followed forced me to take cover under a lawyer to protect my interests.

Now that the the legal process has taken over and he no longer has control of me his desperation has turned to a veiled anger and hatred. He's withholding money from me and accusing me of poisoning our (adult) children against him, and he's actually starting to 'punish' them too. He sent bouncing birthday cheques and blatantly lies to them.
But, to my own surprise, I'm not hurt anymore by his behaviour. I know that I did my best and that he is a 'handicapped' person. Two of the children are also at this point and the third is nearly there.

What Bunny says is spot on, it's up to you to feel sufficiently good about yourself and know that you've truely done what you can.
Being told that you're partly responsible (giving up and not meeting him halfway etc.) is his way of putting the blame on you.
 
My husband still blames me for everything that's gone wrong in his universe (boy, am I important!) but it was up to me to let go of my own guilt that I was somehow responsible for his behaviour.

[Flo]

Probably the single worst experience I have ever had with a man lasted only 6 weeks!!!  He was staying at MY apartment, but I now believe he was "sleeping with" [to be polite] probably SEVERAL different women PER DAY.  This man was manic, bipolar, and I believe he was also N.  A friend later asked me if I thought he was sociopathic and I read up on sociopaths, and he fit that description -- what's the difference, if any, between a sociopath and a narcissist, btw?

Anyway, his behavior changed, too, but much more gradually, subtly, and insidiously than Karin's husband's has.  His was not hatred of me, noor anything aggressively or physically dangerous towards me -- but was about the most emotionally harmful of anything I have ever experienced.

I suffered hugely for six months, and was not getting over it.  I wrote a poem cycle, which helped some, but still I suffered.  I suspected I knew who the main woman was whom he was seeing, and subsequently found out for sure.  I even confronted her publicly about it when an embarrassing event happened, which I will not go into.  I was certain she was no more aware of his former relationship witih me, than I had been of his with her, which turned out to be true.

Well, anyway, I was seeing a psychiatrist this whole time, as well as a therapist.  Back then, in 1998, psychiatrists were human doctors, not automatons who were expected merely to do "meds management."  (What a terrible way to end up, after all that training. The poor things.  I really do feel sorry for them now.)  But anyway, I loved my pdoc, and he became so worried about me he gave me a two hour appointment.  

I told him how much I HATED this guy.  He said, "Flo, there is love, and there is hate.  The two are very closely aligned.  But there is also INDIFFERENCE, Flo. INDIFFERENCE.  And that is what you need to find."

So I came up with this:  I would treat him like a scientific object.  I would "put him on a slide" and "view him under a microscope."  (See, he was court-assigned to serve lunch at the mental health day drop in center where I voluntarily went, and I desperately needed to go there.  But he was ignoring me completely, and this other woman was there, and they were seen together, etc etc -- and the other people there knew he and I had been "a thing," and they loved both her AND me, and didn't know what to do, and oh God it was just terrible!).  So I began to OBSERVE him.  I would try to figure out what about his manner, his behavior, his looks, his voice, ANYTHING that would cause me to be attracted to men such as THAT.

It became really fun!!!  In only a few days, he lost his "hook" on me, and I became quite disdainful of him.  I played with "him" as a slide in my mind, sneered, STUDIED, and even made a few cool remarks designed to embarrass him.

It was totally fun.

So that is how I got to be INDIFFERENT to that cassanova.  

But my wounding was still a terrible thing.  I could no longer trust any man; it injured my sexuality, too.  Not physically -- emotionally.  It was not until I met Jim that I got over my fear of having sex with a man.

Flo

[Flo]

Oh, one more thing -- I don't necessarily agree that all bullies are N's.  Some are just slime balls.  

Now, I am not intending to put a slur on any type of disabiilty here, please understand this.  I am speaking only of two INDIVIDUALS, not trying to stereotype them as an example of the way all people would be who life with their disorder. Obviously, that is NOT the case.  That said:

The bully downstairs I had trouble with was really dumb.  He was fat, ugly, and dumb.  He also had Tourette's Syndrome, if his symptoms were what I think they were.  He would make strange, loud vocal noises.  He'd explain this saying he liked to watch sports on TV and was cheering his team.  Not so!  Absolutely different noises altogether.  He'd also bang on the walls, or slam down the window when someone went by his window.  

Those were not the things that bothered me!! It was his bullying that bothered me.   His bullying consisted of deliberate, cruel, invasive acts towards me AND MY CAT.   He'd just try to spook us, catch us off guard.  None of his actions was illegal.  He knew what he could get away with, and what he couldn't.  He'd also call the kids in the neighborhood ugly names, and also say hateful things to the other neighbors -- just all kinds of amazingly STRANGE harrassing things he'd do.  And he had a view of the beautiful back yard on three sides of his one-room apartment, so there was no way I could go ANYWHERE without him watching me.  I knew he was watching me, because he could here me coming down the stairs which were right above his apartment.  

And I left voluntarily.  But I could not leave for years and years, due to the benefits situation I had.  I finally got a Section 8 vouncher and left. But actually, by then, he had a Vouncher, too, and had moved already.

I get the feeling that he had been so repulsive, and repulsed poeple all his life that he just hated everyone, and used whatever weapons his beady little brain had to cause people who were weaker than him as much pain as possible.  He was crafty.

I knew another bully one time, too -- he was a 14 year old student in a school for developmentally disabled I worked at.  His situation was kinda similar to that of the man downstairs.   Just mean and ugly.  Both these guys were big, fat, which made them ominous and dangerous, too, b/c they were so strong.

Flo

[Anonymous]

such as THAT.

It became really fun!!!  In only a few days, he lost his "hook" on me, and I became quite disdainful of him.  I played with "him" as a slide in my mind, sneered, STUDIED, and even made a few cool remarks designed to embarrass him.

It was totally fun.

So that is how I got to be INDIFFERENT to that cassanova.  

But my wounding was still a terrible thing.  I could no longer trust any man; it injured my sexuality, too.  Not physically -- emotionally.  It was not until I met Jim that I got over my fear of having sex with a man.

Flo

That psychiatrist was good Flo, that is such a powerful lesson you shared, The power of indifference. Yes I'll be mulling on this one for quite a bit today.  Hmmmm,  'Indifference'.

[Hguest]

I was the poster who asked for advice on Thursday,'left because the pain was too much for me.'
Thank you everybody for your kind opinions...I am going to print them out and refer to them.THank you for understanding.It hurts that after giving so much love to someone,they can then look down on you the first time you 'fail' them.I don't know for sure how my possible N feels about me now,because he has buggered off,but this kind of reaction would be typical I feel.
Thanks so much.
PS. I am going to try (in retrospect) this scientific study idea as well!