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marital therapy in the twilight zoNe

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pandora:
More strangeness in marital therapy- sorry so long!

N expressed disappointment and frustration with me and the therapeutic process.  He feels he has progressed a great deal in his personal growth, but has not seen the same for me.  Instead, he upset that I have become more emotionally withdrawn than ever.  He says this is disappointing because he has made efforts to be less critical.  It is true that he is not often overtly nasty as he used to be; not sure if that is permanent.  However, he has still said and done some outrageous things that keep me from feeling safe.

I stated that from my point of view, our relationship is not any safer for me emotionally, and in fact seems less and less safe.  He seems to honestly not get it that expressing indifference to whether we are together in the end or that hooking up with strange women for lunch would be threatening to me at all!  

The therapist did suggest that I might try to be clear when he does/says things that I do find threatening, so that he can learn what is acceptable.  
I have tried to do this – I think I was very clear to him that I don’t want him going to lunch with strange women, and I did express feelings of abandonment to him when he first began planning his trip.  He did not really respond with understanding.  Some of the more outrageous comments he has made about our marriage or me needing to “work harder” have shocked me so much I could not respond.  

The therapist seemed to think there was a glimmer of something positive here – perhaps so, but it seems to put the responsibility for reining him in on me.  Will I have to be constantly vigilant as long as I am with him?  I actually think I have been over the past few months and it is quite exhausting.

Another thing that really disturbs me is that he misrepresented himself in the session.  For example, he expressed frustration that he has “constantly” offered to drive me to work, etc. as a way of spending time together and building intimacy, but that I always refuse.  The truth is that he mentioned this once in the last week –unusual.   I told him it was OK, I really prefer to drive myself.  But he made it sound different in the session.

He also pointed out to the counselor that he had offered to postpone his trip if I wanted him to so that we could work on our relationship, but that I had told him no, I was looking forward to the time apart, and that he should go as planned.  This is true, however, he only made this offer about 2 days ago, and only after I expressed my feelings of questioning our marriage and wanting to use the trip as a separation.  He seemed to be using this in the session as proof that my emotional withdrawal, or something else about me is really the problem.  

A month ago, I tearfully told him that I felt very much that he was abandoning me by planning such an extended trip at this time, and that I could not help but see it as a turning away from me.  Where was his offer to postpone it then?  Why did he wait until days before his departure, after my attitude has changed and I am looking forward to the time apart with relief?  

Yet another detail (yes, I am obsessive) – a few days ago, after we had discussed separation, I honestly told him that I really felt uncomfortable with him at times lately, and that I was sorry if it hurt his feelings, but I still question if I can trust him.  I really did not say this in an attempt to be hurtful, but he noticed I was behaving differently, and I thought I should be honest with him about my feelings.   He brought this up in the session, too – with what seemed to me an undertone of blaming me.  No introspection into how his own actions might have contributed.

I feel like he has pushed me to this point of withdrawing and now really starting to question whether I should stay with him, and now he is blaming me for the way I react, disappointed in me for being closed to “intimacy”, and pointing to this as the reason our marriage is in trouble.  Maybe his whole goal in going to therapy is to “fix” or blame me?

I called the therapist later and asked him directly if I could ever expect any real remorse or sincere apology from N.  He told me that is probably something that I will never get from N, and that I will have to come to terms with that if we stay married.  My question – if someone can’t feel remorse or apologize, how likely is it that they will behave in the same way again?

OK, very very long post – at least give me credit for using paragraphs!  Thank you all!

I am calling the therapist again this afternoon, with a huge list of questions, so you no doubt will get an update!

Anonymous:
Another long post.  After thinking about my marriage, what I have learned about Ns, and events in our session yesterday, I made a list of questions to ask the therapist (T).  I am fortunate that T seems very perceptive and honest, and is very tolerant of my phone calls and questions.  I discussed the following list with him, and noted the answers we discussed.  This approach is helping me in seeing my options, and I thought that you guys might also find it helpful, or be able to share any of your relevant experiences.  


Can he ever be truly supportive/unselfish or does the lack of empathy rule that out?  Uncertain – depends on N’s ability to learn what is/isn’t hurtful.  Will need constant reminders and vigilence from me as this will probably never come to him naturally.

Will he be able to learn and take some responsibility for meeting my needs, or will I always have to fight for it? Related to above and below, probably would need to reduce my expections of a more “normal” marriage and be extra-vigilant in pushing him to meet my needs, or getting them met in other ways without him.

Wll have to exercise constant vigilance to signal when he is being hurtful, inappropriate, devaluing etc.  I feel that this puts the responsibility for controlling his behavior on me.  Is this a normal thing to have in a relationship?   Not normal – well you knew that.  Is quite likely that constant vigilance will be required, and I will always have to take responsibility for trying to rein him in.  A very exhausting way to live.

Does his lack of empathy and remorse for his actions mean that it is likely he will repeat this kind of behavior again (other women and verbal abuse)?  Hard to say, T feels he does have some slight sense of remorse – however expecting a sincere apology and promise not to do these things again is probably an unrealistic expectation from N.  Despite all the times I have brought up my feelings of hurt about OW, in therapy and at home, he has NOT apologized ONCE.  

My perception is that he often puts the responsibility/blame for our problems in the relationship (and some of his personal problems) on me.  (He says “I’ve done this, I’ve done that, but she is not changing/growing, etc., I am disappointed that she is not paying more attention to me, is ungrateful”) Is this likely to change?  May be minimized, but unlikely to change as it is typical characteristic of N personality type.   N has always been like this with me and other people.  I would always have to tolerate/fight and use my own internal defenses to keep from being hurt by this.
He often seems disappointed and dissatisfied with me with who I am and what I can give him – emotionally, sexually, otherwise – is this likely to always be the case?  Same as above.  N has always been like this with me and other people- ultimately dissatisfied.  In my case it alternated (and still does to some extent) with periods of affection and seeming adoration (much less frequent now).

Am I overreacting to think of leaving him after what he has done, how he has behaved, and learning more about his character?  It is a sign of my own weakness, fear of intimacy or inability to commit?  Do I have a moral or ethical obligation to stand by him?  NOT OVERREACTING- all my friends and family tell me this.  Pastoral counseling advised me that he has already broken our marital vows and thus it would not be immoral to leave him.  T says that if I leave it is not a sign that I am too weak or wimping out.   T says that believing that staying in a relationship would ultimately be damaging to you is a valid reason for leaving.  Because of my lack of enough strength to control N, I think it ultimately may be too damaging for him as well to be with me.

What is the chance/possibility of having a truly equal relationship?  Would you want yourself or one of your children to stay in a relationship like this?  Not much of a chance for truly equitable marriage relationship.  T hedged, said that he would try to stop one of his kids from committing to a relationship like this, and if they were in it, he would help them try to understand it.  I think this question posed a conflict of interest for T, since as a marital therapist his job is to try and get people to work on their marriage and focus on creating optimism.  But despite that, T was honest with me and I am grateful.  

I hope that some of you find this beneficial.  I am more of a thinking than a feeling person (and a geek as well), so while I value my feelings and am learning to feel and voice them, information is what helps me to see clearly when it comes to making decisions.  Thank you all for listening.

Anonymous:
This therapist sounds on the ball. And it was smart of you to ask those particular questions.

bunny

rosencrantz:
Hi Pandora - Well done on the paragraphs!  :wink:

Just to cut to the chase, if you could find a helicopter view rather than a detailed view, it might help you see the relationship better.  Don't have any suggestions on how to find the helicopter view, but I feel you're getting lost in amongst all the detail.  (I've done this SO many time!)

For example, he doesn't apologise - so what!  Would it make any real difference?  You want out (sensible girl!) but are trying to find every last shred of evidence to justify it.  

He is an N - end  of story  :wink:

He's looking for someone to blame - you.  And he will do that, you can't defend yourself from his need to blame you.  It's his way of manipulating you and keeping you on a short lead. You will never, ever, ever be in the right.

Why not just take it on the chin and acceed/conceed.  Yes, it's my fault.  I want out of this marriage and I want out to preserve my sanity and my mental health and my general well-being and my happiness (and my teeth, if you've been reading another thread  :wink: ).

Otherwise you'll be arguing the toss and putting it under the microsope forever more.

I understand that you probably can't get to that point just now but perhaps you could keep it in mind on the horizon.  Honestly, you can't win with an N.

It's a bit like Guest's 'Big Jake' persona trying to shut me up by saying that my problem is that I always want the last word.  What do I do?  Give in to prove him wrong?  Patacake back by saying "No, YOU always want the last word"?; defend myself? (both times apparently proving him right).  The answer is to acceed.  Yeah, right I always want the last word and here it is. Boom!

Let it go through you otherwise YOUR guilt and YOUR need to be seen as a NICE person is HIS weapon.

Good luck to you.   :)
R

Anonymous:

--- Quote from: Anonymous ---
Do I believe he will ever be truly supportive/unselfish or does the lack of empathy rule that out?  

Will it need constant reminders and vigilence from me, as this will probably never come to him naturally? [/b]

Do I think  he will be able to learn and take some responsibility for meeting my needs, or will I always have to fight for it?

Wll I have to exercise constant vigilance to signal when he is being hurtful, inappropriate, devaluing etc

Do I believe his lack of empathy and remorse for his actions means that it is likely he will repeat this kind of behavior again (other women and verbal abuse)?  


Do I think this is this likely to change?  


I hope that some of you find this beneficial.  I am more of a thinking than a feeling person (and a geek as well), so while I value my feelings and am learning to feel and voice them, information is what helps me to see clearly when it comes to making decisions.  Thank you all for listening.
--- End quote ---


Pandora, I am using your list as something to devote this weekend to thinking about my partner. Thanks, it's just what I needed to get me back on track and focused. I might add to it, but you've got me going? Thanks

Guest

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