Author Topic: For Sally  (Read 9368 times)

Anonymous

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For Sally
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2004, 12:33:15 PM »
Hi everyone,

Just reading and joining this whole thread.  As for the thank you note thing, here is one I would like to write based on a true experience:

Dear N,

Thank you so much for the very personal birthday present.  How did you know we needed a new toilet seat?  I apologize for your hurt feelings that I have not acknowledged this sooner, but I want to assure you that all of us here remember your generosity and think of you every time we use it. Love, ACON



 :shock:

Anonymous

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For Sally
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2004, 12:40:56 PM »
P.S. to Rosencrantz,

Sounds like a bit of rough going right now.  I think I read that you are familiar with the Four Agreements book.  Between your posts and everyone's (and my) reassurances that you are strong, remember that one part that says "Always do your best.  Your best will change from moment to moment...under different circumstances, etc."  Was thinking of this while reading your posts and replies.  Take care.

rosencrantz

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For Sally
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2004, 03:36:55 PM »
Thanks!!  I'm really quite stunned by all this support.  

Of course, surf14, what you don't know - and what I hadn't quite connected - is that I AM experiencing that kind of undermining here on the board via pm.  Someone here has decided that I don't respond sufficiently personally or frequently to her posts and seeks to define what my 'problem' is.  

When I say that I do not see my 'self' reflected in her definition, she tells me that I must have a motivation for 'ignoring' her which is unconscious to me.  Unfortunately, I rose to the bait and gave her a rather fuller account of myself and then requested that we not continue with the pms.  I received a  vitriolic pm back informing me I should be in therapy. Cheesh!

Of course, now I'm avoiding her like the plague! I don't read her posts AT ALL!  So she has successfully created the situation that she feared in the first place.  In fact, I had, prior to that, chosen indifference to her, seeking to live and let live, as I had a pretty good idea that her response would be extremely hostile if I ever chose to give her the honest feedback that I share with others on the board.  And so it was!!

She seems to think that she has a right to nurturing from others and, whilst anyone has a right to ask, she does not see that other adults have a choice.  It is a particularly 'poor show' to demand nurturing (or was she seeking a patronising 'there, there') from other ACONs when we have been manipulated throughout our lives to sacrifice ourselves for others.

She had a right to nurturing from her mother - and she is right to rage against that.  But I am not that mother and neither is any other woman - and I choose 'not' to take her place and be required to nurture.  I have a right to choose 'not' without being vilified and undermined.  Just as I have a right to choose not to be my mother's parent without being raged against and threatened and manipulated.

Your validation has been very helpful in that it reminded me that I am not the person I am being defined as 'behind the scenes'.  I 'almost' hid myself away to keep it secret.  But then I remembered just in time that's what I've done for years with the abuse I received at the hands of my mother.  I will no longer hide in shame in order to protect others from knowing they have abused me and thus spare them THEIR shame (not that these people seem to feel shame, they just hop off into blaming instead).

Your validation was so unexpected and appropriate to the pain and confusion I was experiencing that for a while I thought it was a 'fix' LOL (although I couldn't imagine how!)  It seems, on the contrary,  that at long last, I'm not quite sure how, I have found a way to 'ask and receive'.  After a lifetime of being 'strong' for others and never knowing how to find a response for myself in times of need, well, I'm (almost) struck dumb!!!   :wink:

Thank you
R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

clj_writes

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Strong voice
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2004, 04:38:30 PM »
Hurrah, R!!  Glad to hear your voice and confidence are back!  These signs of health are very heartening.  :)
Christy

surf14

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For Sally
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2004, 11:23:12 PM »
HI Rozencrantz;
 
   You really have defined the issue well when you said: "She seems to think that she has a right to nurturing from others and, whilst anyone has a right to ask, she does not see that other adults have a choice. It is a particularly 'poor show' to demand nurturing (or was she seeking a patronising 'there, there') from other ACONs when we have been manipulated throughout our lives to sacrifice ourselves for others.  
 
I wouldn't take too seriously an off-the-cuff  negative interaction like you describe.  Number one, you are strong and speak your truth and experience insightfully.  At times I think people envy strength and want a piece of it for themselves.  You are very right, nurturing should not be demanded and actually demanding it smacks of narcissism.

 Number two: this truly is the other person's problem because it is her need for something from you that is resulting in inappropriate behavior; this is coming from the wounds this person has suffered but she has not learned how to handle her emotion, her need or her anger in healthy ways.  She is not taking responsibilty and is actually projecting her need for therapy on to you.

 Thirdly:  this is a public forum board which many people access and  some bizarre or crazy interactions or challanges are to be expected from time to time.  Its unfortunate  but pretty much the norm where participants aren't screened and everyone has access.

Again, you have given some of the most thoughtful and sensitive feedback  here and your help is invaluable.  I look foreward to reading your future posts.   Aloha  Surf

   :D
"In life pain is inevitable, suffering is optional".

Anastasia

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For Sally
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2004, 12:22:39 PM »
I see the gifting of clothing in small--when the receiver is, obviously, a large--as nothing more than covert hostility.

Anonymous

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For Sally
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2004, 09:24:31 PM »
Quote from: Anastasia
I see the gifting of clothing in small--when the receiver is, obviously, a large--as nothing more than covert hostility.


What's covert about it?

Sally

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For Sally
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2004, 12:48:19 AM »
Rosencrantz: Just wanted to add my support to the other support you have received. Even though I have only been here a short time, it is obvious what a large and wonderful contribution you make to the group.

And, it is true, that there are some nut cases lurking around internet boards. The hostility they throw out at people is so unnecessary, especially when, if they don't like something someone is saying, they don't have to read it, or they can leave the web site!  

Glad you let everyone know what was going on and for not silently being offended.  Thanks for all of the help you have already given to me. Hugs. Sally

rosencrantz

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For Sally
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2004, 07:25:44 AM »
Offended?

Offended!!!!!?

What a wonderful word.  I look back at my post and - yes - I sound offended!!!

Part of that redefining myself in relation to my mother : she 'offends' me!! (Gosh, is that all!!?)

But it's not about 'taking too seriously' something someone else said.  (A blanket to caress me which also smothers me and muffles my voice.  :wink: )

It's about the energy it takes to keep on track, to know who 'I' am, to not be defined by someone else and retain my perspective. The energy to stay strong and not crumble - mentally, emotionally.  The energy to know what's right and avoid getting sucked into the void of someone else's need or the maelstrom of titfertat rage.  The energy to choose the right path to go down in responding (or not). The energy to cope with the shame of being attacked.  And then the exhaustion...the not being sure...the uncertainty...the (self-)blame....the 'should I have', the 'could I have'...

Quote
Because I am ashamed that someone else felt shame because of me!!!!!


It doesn't matter that they brought it on themselves.  No explanations or justifications matter.  I failed simply by being 'me', by existing as 'who I am'.

And HERE is the eye of the storm, here is the source of all MY particular personal enduring pain.
R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

Wildflower

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For Sally
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2004, 09:49:23 AM »
Hi Rosencrantz,

I’m sorry I haven’t been replying to your other posts, but I’ve been reading them and thinking about them, and I’m so glad you expressed what was going on behind the scenes.  Really, as if we need more people attacking us in our lives. :shock:  :x

But I had a strong reaction to your last post and I wanted to share my own struggles with this problem:

Quote
Rosencrantz: The energy to cope with the shame of being attacked. And then the exhaustion...the not being sure...the uncertainty...the (self-)blame....the 'should I have', the 'could I have'...


One of the most difficult hurdles for me to overcome was belief in what was real, in what really happened.  I felt all these strange things, and I intuitively knew that so much was wrong, but reality slipped through my fingers every time I was challenged by either of my parents to defend myself (WHY was I being asked to defend myself all the time??).

In another posting I talked about having some fact to hold on to.  I’d further qualify that by saying something undeniable, something in the present and less clouded by the confusion of childhood.  With my dad, it was being told I was “a loveless child from the beginning.”  This was such a ridiculous statement that was so obviously intended to hurt me, blame me, let me know how I’d let him down…  When reality starts shifting in his presence, I remember this statement and reality snaps back into focus: my father is a sick, wounded animal.  Ignore his barking and get yourself to safety.

As you’ve seen, my dealings with my mother have been much more difficult because I’m so much more emotionally attached to (embedded in?) her.  Here’s where my shame has been eating me day by day for years.  My therapist has been trying, little by little, to help me understand that I’m not a horrible monster who deserved (nay demanded) all the abuse I received.  (Abuse????  I was abused???? :shock: )  But I didn’t believe it.  I had a massive database of all the failures in my life, all my failed relationships, all the times I had wounded my parents.  And I had all their explanations in my head for why it was my fault (lucky them that they don’t even need to remind me how it’s all my fault anymore, though they do).

But last week I discovered a fact about my mother.  She doesn’t ‘get’ how hard people have worked to build their lives and pull themselves out of their pain and confusion (or even how much work it is just to live normally, without a history of abuse).  And she didn’t ‘get’ how much work it takes to be a parent – and that the parent has to put his/her needs aside to address those of the child.  Now I can finally hear myself think (which lately has been amazingly quiet without all the internal noise), because I’m confident that yes, my mother did not take care of me.  Yes, I was a kid who did deserve a caring, supportive, nurturing environment – and no, I didn’t get it.  All that really happened. :cry:

Yes, both of my parents brought this on themselves, but that doesn’t really help me think myself out of a bag.  My friends bring stuff on themselves, too, and I want to be supportive in helping them out of their messes just as I hope they would do the same for me.  I want to forgive and accept their flaws, just as they do mine.  But my parents are different (are they really?  Am I just being a spoiled child??).  They really, truly are different.  And now I have two pieces of earth to stand on when that truth is called into question.

Wildflower

P.S. - Thanks for being you in this community.   :)
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

Anonymous

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For Sally
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2004, 10:17:53 AM »
Whoops.  Forgot to add my point  :oops:  :wink: .  Details  :roll: .

What I was trying to get as is that now I can use these truths to mine out more truths - and more importantly, myself.  This is my compass, and it will be harder (I hope) for my parents to derail and define me (whether or not they're speaking to me in person or in my mind).  I can look back on my past without the filter of their excuses, and I can finally begin see the child I was, and the person I am.

Wildflower

surf14

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For Sally
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2004, 01:46:28 AM »
HI All;

Hopefully as we all work through these issues we can move away from shame, which is a  needless waste of emotional energy.    Surf
"In life pain is inevitable, suffering is optional".