For Sally

[surf14]

HI Sally, I postd this on the end of "Just learn to Cope" but was not sure you'd see it so have brought it foreward here.  And please for anyone else who has gone through the process of disengaging from an N parent who cannot learn to be supportive and civil. (Thanks JacMac for your response, it helped alot)  
Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Posts: 29

   
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:12 pm    Post subject:    
HI Sally, thanks so much for your post. I have ordered the book and am waiting for it to arrive. I was wondering; after you decided to release your mother from your life did you have to struggle with the negative shaming voices that you must have heard in your head that you probably felt your mother was directing at you? How did you manage your guilt on "abandoning her" which is how she must have viewed your distancing? Or were you past feeling guilt because of the vile nature of your mothers actions? The mother-daughter relationship is so fraught with emotional entanglement its just hard to imagine getting to the point of letting her go but I am getting close. Thanks for your response . Surf

[rosencrantz]

Hi Surf - I had always been afraid of guilt rushing in when the time came for one or both of my parents to die.

When I realised that my father was dying, I had to 'think fast' about how I was going to handle it. And I came up (quite naturally!) with this :

"I have honoured my parents by 'getting out from under' and living the best life I can."

I truly believe that and, as it turned out, my father never recriminated with me - he was just glad to see me again and I had the feeling that (for him) there was nothing to 'forgive' anyway.  

My mother, on the other hand, had a field day and continues to put as much pressure to bear as possible ie she constantly does everything she can to make me feel guilty about decisions I have made in the past and decisions I make now.  (It was only in writing this that I finally cottoned on that when she 'goes on' about the past, she is trying to make me feel guilty - I can be so thick sometimes!!!  I still find it difficult to find words for 'what she does'.)

So the risk is that, if you go, these N parents will bring much greater pressure on you and do everything they can to 'bring you to heel'.  So you need to know that you are strong enough and ready for the onslaught before you try.  Flo's idea about being 'scientific' and putting them under the microscope, watching their attempts to use emotional blackmail on you and provoke guilt is probably a good one here.
R

[surf14]

Thanks so much Rosencrantz; you are very courageous and I think that is what it takes to brace against the onslought one knows is coming.  In a sense though I think it is like finally GROWING UP.  Its the last frontier to being an integrated adult.  Mahalos

[Sally (sslichterj)]

Hi Surf: Interesting question about my mother's response because it made me look at what is going on with my feelings of walking away from my N ex-husband for good.

My mother didn't make any move to attack me, reject me, try and change my mind or appease me in any way.  After my letter to her there was just silence.  She continues to send gifts at Christmas and my birthday (but sends them to me with the wrong last name!! can you imagine...when I married I wrote a short note to let her know I'd marriedl My married name was Jones..she sent gifts to me in the name of Smith! Like 'Smith/Jones, what difference does it make??'  My UPS driver thought it soooooooo weird.!)

And, by the way her way of displaying her love to my sister and I was always by giving us gifts.  Like a gift would make up for all of the mental and physical abuse!!!)  

The gifts now are usually clothes in size small..I am size 16 now at 60 years of age and 5'7"....a small never would have fit, even when I was a size 10.  But, I was always fat in her mind and so was anyone who carried even as much as five extra pounds on their body.  In fact, if you carried the five pounds you really weren't really a person who had any value in the world.  It won't suprise you to learn that my mother and sister are both anorexic.  So, even though there is no communication, she continues to send little digs at me.

One interesting aspect is that I felt nothing about walking away from her, except maybe relief.  Her abuse of me throughout my life was so leathal, so sick that I felt like a bird who had finally received wings.  I still feel nothing about her.  

One therapist once asked what would I do if she died?  Thought that was an interesting question, but I said I would not attend the funeral. She suggested it might be a better idea to go to let her know how I feel about her.  As the therapist said, you could finally tell her without worrying about what her response would be.  So, I have a working plan, since she is in her late 80's and can't go on forever.  But I also know that I will not stay to listen to people tell me how sad they are about her death, or how sad it must be for me.  Everyone knew how sick my mother was and knew what she was doing to my sister and I.  As far as I am concerned those people who stood by and did nothing to try and help my sister and I are just as guilty as she was/is.

But back to the main topic.  Sometimes I wonder if I simply transferred my sick need to be injured by a narcissist from my mother to my ex who has been in my life for over twenty years.  What I think is so interesting is that the greatest pain I have experienced from him always happens when I have left him.  When I leave, he does nothing.  Nothing.  No call, no letter, no attempt whatsoever to appease me, bring me back.  Just nothing.  It's as if I never existed, as if we never were a part of each other's lives.

That part has always been so painful for me, that I would usually be the one to make contact with him, telling him how sorry I was for walking away.  He would gladly accept my apology, cause, of course it was all my fault anyway.  

I am in that painful place of feeling as if I don't and never have existed again as far as he is concerned.  And, for me that is the hard part.  I can't help but wonder why it never hurt with my mother, but it hurts so much with him.  All I know is this time I will not go back.  This time I know it isn't my fault, it is actually his fault (if there is any fault, and I'm not so sure there is.)  I just think we were both really sick people, continuing a dance that began somewhere in our child hood.

Having just learned about narcissism I have a much better understanding about what has been going on in my life. The knowing has taken away a great deal of pain.How will I hold on and stay strong?  Not sure.  Struggling.  Eating seems to be my comfort (does that surprise anyone?).  But, if that's what it takes to stay away, then bring on the food!!!!!!!

Hope I answered some of your questions surf.  Please don't hesitate to ask others, if you need or want to.  It sounds as if you are also in a battle for your life.  Sending you good thoughts and strength!!  Sally

[rosencrantz]

Surf - I can't remember exactly how or why I finally 'never went back'.

I left in increments - lived with my mother's sister for a while while I was working near her, then moved into a house with some other girls (that was when the pressure started big time), then moved to Uni much further away.  Went home during vacations and found work but then started finding jobs near Uni instead.  Found a job that required me to work over Christmas then got fully involved in my life away from home.  

I didn't 'plan' it but I'm sure my subconscious knew more than I did!!  I experienced so much verbal cruelty but I didn't know that's what it was - it was just 'me' being a terrible person all the time, never being able to get anything right, never getting approval, always trying harder.  I felt so sick at home yet I continued to go back, doing what was expected, trying to be 'good'!!!  That's so sad (in all senses!).  I had no idea what my feelings were or what they were telling me.  

My mother drove me round the bend.  I remember I used to think she'd say black was white if it suited her.  Compromise didn't exist in her vocabulary.  And everything had to be kept secret. Oh, I was so loyal.

I tried to get help for her (for what I'd now describe as narcissistic rage or hysterical paddies or hissy fits but appeared to be nervous breakdowns - always afraid that she'd 'crack' if pushed too far by my attempts to establish truth or reality!!) - but it just led to further recriminations and the most astounding lies.  

I didn't know they were lies - I'd think I'd forgotten what I said or what I'd written ie I'd think there was something wrong with my mind - what I recognised in the film Gaslight and now know to be called gaslighting).  I was 19 for God's sake (cj, when you write, you take me back to how things were then.  Younger than that - 14 perhaps 16 - I did once just 'not know' where I was, who I was, where I was going.  I knocked on someone's door - they didn't know who I was either!!    I have been so disciplined ever since - I NEVER let my guard down - I keep my mind in check ALL the time.)

One day (in my early 20s), in desperation, one time when I went home during a vacation and she was twisting and turning everything and driving me mad, I tried to phone the Samaritans.  I managed to get through.  I was sitting in a small room at the front of the house which wasn't used much.  I only managed to make contact for an instant - my mother came in and broke the connection.  

I put my head down on the stool in front of me.  I cannot explain the noise I made - a very long aaaaaaaaagggghhhh of total anguish.  I'll never forget.  

And my mother twitched the net curtains and said 'What WILL the neighbours think'!

You gotta laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?

A few years later, when I lived abroad, she acquired a postal vote for me and voted in my name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I always siad I should've shopped her.  I dearly wish I had now!!!

I think I was very 'adult' from a relatively young age, but my mother was not going to respect or nurture the adult part of me.  She did everything she could to destroy it.

So I'd suggest it's not as 'simple' as being 'adult' or 'growing up' or 'becoming independent'.  

Just wondering how it's different...you need to develop more mental stamina than the average person, stronger boundaries, knowledge, wisdom, competence, resilience - and very good FRIENDS!  
R

[rosencrantz]

Sally - My turning point in relationships with men was once when I couldn't find anything to apologise for in order to get us back together again.  Very disorientating!!  I think you've cracked it!!  
R

[surf14]

HI Rozencrantz and Sally; thanks so much for your replies!
R-  "I didn't 'plan' it but I'm sure my subconscious knew more than I did!! I experienced so much verbal cruelty but I didn't know that's what it was - it was just 'me' being a terrible person all the time, never being able to get anything right, never getting approval, always trying harder. I felt so sick at home yet I continued to go back, doing what was expected, trying to be 'good'!!! That's so sad (in all senses!). I had no idea what my feelings were or what they were telling me.

My mother drove me round the bend. I remember I used to think she'd say black was white if it suited her. Compromise didn't exist in her vocabulary. And everything had to be kept secret. Oh, I was so loyal. "

 This is exactly how I felt  stuck in the sick dynamic going on in  my home growing up.  You are writing my life and it was total futility.  When I was 19 I had a chance to break away; I traveled to Hawaii with a boyfriend  and that gave me some distance.  

 I have spent the remaining 30 years going thru an approach/avoidance dance based on my mother's  behavior; mostly avoidance since the geographical distance has afforded me that and her behavior has caused nothing but misery since.  I can relate so well to the description of feeling'sick' around her.  The few times she has visited over the years were disasters (all my fault of course because ie  I was unable to give her the total undivided time and attention she required when my daughter was 4 months old during one of the visits.  Its always my fault!!)  and caused me to feel like giving up.  I always came away with an oodgy feeling like I had crossed the path of the devil or something. I always am left feeling like giving up because she leaves me no room at all to stand on; no respect at all.  I'm sure you can relate.

 I feel better these days about the fact that when she passes on I am not to blame for what never went right; I  am finally stronger now about that because I know I have done everyhing I could to reconnect with her but I COULD NOT sanction her abuse, and this is what she requires.  I feel very sad that I did not have a supportive and happy nurturing home with the support of  a family of origin all these years but I was fortunate to have been 'adopted' as a teenager into my boyfriends home and am still close to that family despite geographical distance and despite not having married into the family.  At least I was able to experience how an integrated family functions.

Sally; I'm so sorry for your struggle!  Please, I hope you don't go back to to your XN.  You deserve so much more.  Its very hard tho to break the addiction and the enmeshment.  I understand too well because that is what I have going thru with my Darth-Mom.  Heck; I'd want to send those gifts laced with darts back to her.  How unkind!  

And yes Jacmac, sometimes one needs to know when to QUIT.  I think that's where I am now since nothing has worked and I'm not going to suffer my mothers  devaluation and abuse.  Its been helpful getting other's perpectives who have been thru similar experiences; helps you not feel so responsible for the relationship failure.  Thanks all!

[Sally (sslichterj)]

Rosencrantz and Surf: This discussion has helped a great deal today. Rosencrantz it was good to hear that I may have finally found the key...by not going back anymore to apologize...that part finally came clear to me learning about Narcissism.  But ohhhhhhhh the pain. Recieved a notice about the car payment, forwarded by my xn today in the mail. No note, no goodby, no f....k you, nothing...just nothing.  It is that nothingness that I can barely stand.  Feel as if I can't breathe.  So hard not to make a connection just to reasure myself that I exist.  I know I have to make it past this point, but right now I feel like a deer in the headlights..immobile, unable to move, just breathing small breaths hoping this fear will end.  It's just the worst.

And Surf, hope this is helping you some.  Leaving the N takes tremendous courage and having the N be a parent throws in all sorts of other issues.  I think you are going about this in just best way by taking your time and asking lots of questions.  Hugs to both of you...Sally

[rosencrantz]

Sally - This is the toughest moment, I think, in understanding and dealing with the narcissist.  The bit about 'not existing'.

You are right in one sense - That's exactly what it's all about.  You DON'T exist - for a narcissist.  

How can that possibly be to 'not exist' in someone else's eyes.  It's truly beyond belief, beyond comprehension...

This is a time when you need to work really hard on getting and keeping your thoughts the right way round.  

YOU exist.  You exist for us here!!  You exist for other people and you exist for YOU.  It's your experience of his response to you that you are expressing.

Perhaps you feel you only exist if you exist in somebody else's eyes,  if somebody else is 'seeing you'.  Perhaps you feel that you need to be reflected in someone else's eyes to exist, that someone else has to reflect back to you who you are - ???

My H says - 'we differentiate by contrast' and I've found that useful. He had impenetrable boundaries which meant I didn't constantly 'lose' myself in him and I found out who I was by discovering in what ways I was different to him.

I'm sending you 'stay strong' vibes!!!  
R

[Sally (sslichterj)]

Rosencrantz: Bless you for your help today. And just responding to my pain helps to verify that I do exist in someone's eyes...but I am writing back because something you said triggered something...I remeber hearing, reading ??? that an infant knows it exists when it sees itself reflected back in the eyes of it's mother...in her expressions of love, joy, etc.  Have any thoughts on that?

Obviously I'm thinking lots about this today...is this the feeling I have been avoiding all along?  This nothing feeling, the feeling I don't exist?  When I look back on my family, I can be in touch with the feeling that I was "outside of the family dynamic"..an observer. My father doted on my older sister because my mother was so exceedinly brutal to her.  Everyone thought I was my mother's favorite, but she was the total "sicky" in the family, so I got absolutely nothing from her.  My sister was too busy surviving to pay any attention, and besides  she hated me because she decided I was my mother's favorite.  She still has a hard time understanding that what I got from our mother was just as cruel and painful as what she got...it just manifested in different ways.

What do you think? Sound like I'm on to something?  Darn wish I could make that last piece fit.  I know I've just got to hand on right now if I ever want to find that last piece.  It has to be a product of staying right in this place of nothingness....Hugs. Sally

[Sally]

One more thing, Rosencrantz...re-read the part where you said it is my experience of what he said that I am experiencing.  ie...if he sends back nothing that acknowledges me; then I do not exist, because I do not exist if I cannot be what he wants and needs me to be?  think I'm on the right track?  

Now that would fit with my mother too. I did not exist in her eyes if I was not what she wanted me to be.  I have thrown off everything, my ties to my social upbringing, the way that I look, the way that I act; my work against the status quo as a land-use activist which embarassed her, because she thought it would bring shame on her name?

It's the voicelessness, isn't it?  Although I think its more than voicelessness; I think it's voicelessness as well as not being seen for what and who we are.  A total denial of my voice and my being by my mother and also by my XN.  I'm going to let that simmer for awhile. Thanks Rosencrantz, you may have just helped me up over the mountain! Hugs. Sally

[surf14]

Sally, I was going to post exactly what you referenced...when we are infants we get a sense of being thru our mothers who reflect back to us lovingly that we are lovable and cared for.  If this is not present that's when things get really convoluted.  How can a baby get a sense of themselves when their primary caretaker does not mirror back to them that they are loved and adored and cared for for who they are?

  As the child gets older and is taught that they only exist  thru their mother, and for  her purposes, this lack of self is reinforced.  I'm wondering if at the beginning of your relationship with your X N if you had that sense of acheiving completeness of visibility thru him; something you hadn't been able to experience growing up.  If so it must be very hard to let that go evne though  this was an illusion.

Letting go of trying to get that need met thru him can be likened to an addiction, and that process is very hard at first.  You understand addiction Sally, because you've been there; it will get easier as the days progress.   Right now you're in the withdrawal phase.  Remember  that that sense of visibility you did not get from your primary caretaker, and that you thought you were getting from your ex, was an illusion.  But you can get those needs met here and from friends who are nurturing and supportive.  You're a neat person with alot to offer.   You helped me quite a bit today.  Hang tight!   Surf

[Survivor]

Sally,

I loved your posts and can relate to a lot of what you said about your mother.  I just wanted to let you know you're not alone in receiving the wrong size (TOO SMALL!) of clothing from her.  I also have always received clothes that were WAY too small for me.  It was my mother's way of telling me she wanted me to be thinner.  My sister was also anorexic in high school, but I didn't follow suit.  The ironic thing is, I am not overweight, but I am tall - five inches taller than my mom with a larger frame.  I read somewhere that the N Mother wants her daughters to be exactly the same height, weight, etc. as they are   . . . interesting.  My bones were not as small as her - I could never win!  

Hang in there and know that you're not alone.  Those N Mothers were just brutal to us and I thank God we are aware of their schemes now.  

I appreciate your posts!

Survivor

[rosencrantz]

Hi Sally - Something was niggling at the back of my mind as I wrote about 'existing only through the eyes of others' but I couldn't bring it to mind.  Sorry!

As I read your new post, it seemed to me that there's a difference between not 'existing' for someone else and being invisible - ?????  I could cope with being invisible cos then I just have to make myself visible, but if I don't exist, I can't!!!

Hmmm - I wonder if that 'existing in the eyes of others' thing reflects the Jungian (Myers/Briggs) definition of extraversion.  Some of us need 'other people' to feel we exist.  This isn't pathological or something to grow out of.  It just 'is'.  No people = a sense of annihilation.  Dorothy Rowe is a good straightforward author on this.

Why Does He Do That by Bancroft has just arrived and i've been flicking through it.  Highly recommended (in small doses only!!)
R

[Sally]

Surf14: Surf your thinking just right on...wow...when you said you wondered if I had a sense of achieving viisibility through him, which I hadn't experienced growing up, is a really new idea...one that absolutely fits, maybe more than any concept about  us in the last 20 years.  

And, you know what? It feels right too.  I think maybe that's exactly what held me to him with so much force.  At times that draw to him felt primal in some way.  Couldn't ever put my finger on what it was, or why it was so important.  The pain, when I would leave always brought me to my knees, and then I would have to deal the fact that I had done it to myself, since I was the one who left. The leaving and the pain that followed it meant I was wrong and guilty, and, of course, that fit in perfectly with his narcissism.

When I would return, or we would meet again, I was always so sorry about what I had done, although in my heart it wasn't any action that I did to him I was apologizing for; it was the action I had done against myself.  Pushing him away meant I no longer existed.  It really fits.

And, of course, you are right, that the way to get  that visibility from someone who won't harm me is through this board and my friends.  I'm also reading "Trapped in the Mirror" like it is a textbook.  I am now towards the end of the book where she talks about specific problems Adult Children of Narcissists have, and just like my ex was a textbook narcissist, I am a test book child of one.  Heaven above, hope I can put this all together to have some peace in my life.  Think I am going in the right direction.

So thankful for all of you on this board, for you wisdom and insight, and so appreciative of the way you have held my hand through these last couple of days.  Many hugs.  Sally