Am reading on toxic shame--am appalled

[isittoolate]

I haven’t posted in a bit.

I am sorry there was conflict on the board. I am no good at conflict, as I don’t have enough faith in my thoughts/beliefs or myself other than to say just that. I expect that has evolved from having no voice.

I have been reading John Bradshaw on toxic shame and I find it mind-boggling to read what happens in this mutigenerational problem.

As I read I think, ‘this is grandma/grandpa, ‘this is dad/mom, ‘this is me/my siblings’, ‘this is my daughter’, --and since she and 2 of her children are in therapy, ‘this could be my grandchildren.’---so I’ve mentioned 5 generations there. Where will it all stop?

I read small bits at a time so I don’t ‘go ballistic’ and then get back to my current murder mystery.

However this book brings to mind one emotionally healthy family I knew. I will say they were, as they appeared that way. The parents had two daughters. The parents owned a summer resort and hired me as a waitress. They were lovely people, about the age of my parents and both gone now. They treated me better than my parents did. They could scold without making me feel bad about myself and they could praise without my getting a swelled head.

The daughters would be just slightly older (6-8 years?) than I, are still alive and are married still to the boys they were dating at the time, then engaged, like for 2 years, then married and I never thought of them as other than lovely girls who I wished I could be like.

I expect there was no toxic shame in that family, with none in the past and hopefully none in the future with these girls’ children and grandchildren.

Who ever said Life was Fair?

Izzy

[dandylife]

I worry about this, too. My daughter (born 1990) during the worst of the N traits in the marriage - is much like her N-istic (more borderline, though) dad.

Son, (born 1997) after therapy, etc. is much like me, so much more empathic, etc.

I am trying to instill good traits in my daugher. I'm thinking good boundaries are key. But, it's very very difficult to change ingrained traits, beliefs, etc.

I hear you, feel the same.

Dandylife

[Overcomer]

John Bradshaw's books were the first I read about any of these topics.  That was right after I first went to counseling and even heard the words dysfunction.....codenpendent......He is good but it IS heart wretching to be able to identify yourself and your FOO.

[isittoolate]

Thanks DL,

I had the feeling that at 67, all my traits are so ingrained, there is not enough time for me to 'change' and become functional as opposed to dysfuntional. Too much has happened in my life from the very beginning.

I went to the psychiatrist to be diagnosed and he said Avoidant Personality Disorder and that I'm not likely able to change,

I mentioned this to my daughter and she said he ought to be fired, that we all can change-- well I will quote her:

"I DO however, believe that no matter who we are, that we are empowered to change our own lives.  My own life is an example.  If you do not believe that you can change your life, then you are right,  and frankly, if your shrink says that you cannot change, and you believe him, then he is right."

She makes a point but she is not God, nor is she me, nor is she a therapist.

I am trying another therapist and I will see what she says. In Bradshaw's book he mentioned "years of therapy"........

...I cannot imagine $100 hour for the rest of my life to try to change. Trying is the beginning of doing.

I grew up with no boundaries so I lived by flying of in all directions at once, never knowing who I was or where I was going.

I thought I did a much better job of parenting than my mother did, but it wasn't good enough, as I am more dysfuntional that I thought I was. I suppose I can see now that even my daughter picked up some of my traits, but after the N she was still young enough to get to therapy and make changes. She would therefore have to talk about me as her only parent (-- her father killed himself when she was 15--although he hadn't been around in 7 years, when she was 8.)

Hi Overcomer

I was notified that you came on.

Yes I agree. Heart-wrenching and I felt so discombobulated after the first few pages, almost sick!

I can talk about my grandmother, my parents and myself to the therapist and I do undertand the generational problem, first hand now.

I have mainly felt that my parents did their best with the 'tools they had" and then kept my feelings to myself but didn't disown them or rage at them with blame, but I might have been distant, yet did their tax returns every year.

I sure feel strange since beginning that book--like a witch who ought to be burned at the stake, or shot with a silver bullet, or have my computer taken away from me-----the last one would do me in!!!

xx
Izzy

[reallyME]

I want to encourage you all that you CAN change, no matter how long you have lived in a dysfunctional family.  The first step is to RECOGNIZE that there is a problem with your behavior, responses, reactions.  From there, I use several steps to help the lady I've been mentoring...she has grown and changed a LOT!

A really good tool to use, is a TAPE RECORDER.  Listen to yourself in a phone convo or face to face one.  You will HEAR the manipulations, avoidance, defense mechanisms...then, you can take one at a time and learn to do the OPPOSITE of what you have done for years.  It IS possible.  All it takes is 21 days to form a new habit, good or bad. IT's been scientifically proven.  It's all about putting new messages repeatedly into your neurons.  You can DO it!

~Laura

[Hopalong]

Izzy, hon...

No matter how many dysfunctional things you learned or still struggle with, you are a worthwhile human being with lots of intelligence, skill and humility, and I learn from you every time you post...

Please don't write yourself off. So you might never be perfect.

Maybe you'll become a little wiser, a little happier, a little more at peace.

I think you are very creative and that art of some sort (maybe digital) is going to bring you a great deal of meaning in your life.

You are valuable, your life is valuable, and "dysfunctional" can be a way to beat up on yourself.

Please don't.

((((((Izzy)))))

Hops

[dandylife]

Izzy,
I hate to push 'another book' at you, but have you read "Boundaries: Where You End and I Begin" by Anne Katherine?

I guess I've come to look at boundaries as the ethical and 'correct' way to teach people how to treat you. It's a lesson in balanced assertiveness. If everyone on the planet had healthy boundaries, the world would be a changed place, for sure.

If you have healthy boundaries, everything else, like a domino effect - changes in your life. You are acting/behaving differently, and therefore, others will follow suit. They must. Something profound has changed. This is important to teach yourself, and to teach your kids, as I've come to know!

You seem to have yourself in a 'comfortable' situation - as comfortable as you can be, Izzy. All through what you've been through, no wonder you've sort of given up on people - why should you have trust that others will treat you well? But if you put yourself in control with healthy boundaries - test it with little interactions and grow to the big, intimate, personal ones.

I think you are Soooooo intelligent and you have an uncanny ability to see and understand deeply about others. I think you are already on a path to change.

Dandylife

[isittoolate]

Hi reallyME

Re my changing before I croak,
All it takes is 21 days to form a new habit, good or bad. IT's been scientifically proven.

I know about this and take it as meaning a new habit, like brush your teeth for 21 days and you will continue, or don’t make your bed for 21 days and you will continue.

It is mind boggling for me to think of changing this me in 21 days. I am now a false self and have to build a whole new person. I might not like that new snobby little f**t either, then what?  21 days? I cannot believe that.

Hi Hops

Thanks for your kind words. I am using dysfunctional as a term for who I now am to identify it against the functional person I could have been/could be

There are a lot of things I like about this me, and then another set that I keep hidden from the world.

Not here though. I have let it all hang out and yet no one had given up on me-- yet.

Do you know where a woman’s ‘yet’ is? I heard today that a woman was shot downtown and the bullet is in her ‘yet’.

Hi dandylife

I totally agree that my boundaries require attention. Currently I have been eyeballing them, and I have succeeded to keeping someone “at bay’ 5 times without crossing over and he/she was not angry with me.

My attempts, though, will not take the place of a good book, or a course in “Boundaries’, as I need to know the areas.

Intelligent? I might have a higher IQ but my EQ is very low (emotional quotient)

Thank you

Hi LeahsRainbow

Yes. I came on Board with a plan. To first tell the whole truth bout my ‘awful’ life; then to tell everyone where the point was that I would usually break off in real life because the person knew too much about me and now I couldn’t ‘face that person anymore, so the relationship would end. (Sabotaging Relationships: trait of an AvPD)

I stayed on but didn’t quite know where to go from there but am still here.

Thank you

Hi besee,

I just read the patronizing section last night.

My response to that is regarding my being in a wheelchair. I feel like posting signs all over me! “I do not want an electric chair”

First of all, I would need a very long cord, and second of all the reference is being made to a ‘battery-operated chair’, and third of all is my answer—“because they don’t fold up to go into my car”.

If people are going to offer me advice, then these people ought to make themselves aware of certain things. One is that I need a 2-door car. If it’s 4-door and I put the chair into the back then I would have to walk or crawl to the driver’s door. Not all 2-doors are acceptable if the console is too wide, as the front wheels won’t span it.

 If I were to buy a van, I would have to adopt about 10 children to fill up the empty space behind me.

Oh yes, I am patronized a lot by people who know nothing, but I still think they mean well. They are talking to the smiling me who used to go up and down escalators, sitting at a 45 degree angle, and was told by Sears Manager that I was scaring his customers and to please stop doing that.

Humph! Take away MY fun will you? Then I won’t patronize your store anymore. Na-Na-na-na-na-na!!

Love to all

Izzy

[Hopalong]

Hi Besee,
I am damn sure guilty of patronizing sometimes. Esp. with my daughter. That said, I have similar thoughts so here're some quick reactions:

I was curious if others have ever felt shame when someone tried to help them.
YES

What do you think of "Helpers are always helping themselves." ?
ALWAYS ALWAYS sounds like an absolute. So there's truth to think about but it's too broad a brush, imo...

Isn't there a possibility of someone truly giving from their heart in a way that is respectful of the
other?
YEP
When are people giving from their heart in altruism that cares about others not just themselves? 
DOUBLE YEP
Is there always a hidden agenda of feeding one's ego?
I don't think so. I've received too much thoughtful giving to believe that.
I've also experienced times when someone reached out and helped me (without my request) and
it was helpful. I didn't feel shamed.

Me too.
Glad you asked these. I think always and absolutes are red flags about black and white thinking. Subtleties are more work, but more real, imo.

thanks,
Hops