Author Topic: Virginia  (Read 7166 times)

isittoolate

  • Guest
Re: Virginia
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2007, 09:10:40 PM »
So when I heard of this, away up in Canada, I said to myself, "OMG. This is horrific!" I thought a bit about the dead students and the parents' grief and the fact that the shooter killed himself---- waned off a bit in wondering about closure for the families----

Then I told my Therpaist that, and that  I thought, "It has nothing to do with me" "Life goes on no matter what". 

I thought of when Joe died and no one in my family was interested at all. "It had nothing to do with them'---it was just my daughter's father and I had loved him. We were alone in our grief on that side, but not with his family.

My Therpaist said that I was not abnormal in my thinking re this. I was glad to hear that. It is SO far away, in another country, and somewhat like hearing about a soldier being killed overseas.....there is a sad thought for what has happened but one still has to nuke the coffee and get the kids dressed for school.

"Life goes on!" ...................and I hate that but it does!

Izzy

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13619
Re: Virginia
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2007, 10:30:35 PM »
I recall one commentator on TV tonight saying she is convinced that he had been sexually abused for a long period of time.
I know he wears and merits all the labels, murderer, N, monster...but they're just words. Places to put the anger.

When I saw him, I kept thinking, poor kid. About him. The victims break my heart, their families...

The loss of all the others, the grief of all the others, is very real to me. But so is he. I wonder what he went through in that townhouse with his family. What made his face go blank and his mind go mad.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

mudpuppy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1276
Re: Virginia
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2007, 10:35:42 AM »
Uh, before we start accusing his relatives of one of the most abominable acts possible, without the slightest evidence whatsoever, perhaps we ought to stop and think about things.

Many psychos grow up in relatively reasonable and normal homes and some of their most pitiable victims are often their own parents. That may very well be the case here.

Whatever the case he made the choices and commited the acts. I'll save my pity for the victims until I learn otherwise.

mud

debkor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Virginia
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2007, 03:22:02 PM »
I don't know what to say.  I'm not sure of my thoughts.  How can one ever be.  He is gone. We can only speculate what went through his mind.

I had worked with mentally ill people.  I have seen them go off their meds.  Sabatoge their own meds. Delusional to the point of thinking other people were sabotaging their meds.  Mafia was breaking into their homes. They did self inflicted wounds to themselves. Shotguns being set up with a trigger to whomever went into their house would be shot if they hit the booby trap.  They saw people in their house, they spoke about how they were tortured showed me the deep wounds on them told me how they were held down by the others and tortured.  They were terrified and was going to do whatever it took to fight and keep these people out.  It was all a delusion but very real to them.  They really saw these things. This was real for them and being done to them, *in their minds*.
I have had been told a woman had been killed with a red dress on by their house, a prostitute. It increased as he spoke to 3 women all with red dresses. I was wearing a red dress, I was pregnant and it was a direct threat.  It was coming out of his delusional mind of his twisted *reality*  His family did try to get him hospitalized, yet he had done nothing criminal, yet.
Eventually he was when he was reported to have a gun and going to shoot everyone up. He was not in reality. He was trapped in his tortured, twisted, delusional mind.

So what I am saying is there could of been nothing that his family had done for him to become this way. He was just mentally ill, delusional, a psycho like Mud said.

My sympathy's are with the victims. 

Love
Deb

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13619
Re: Virginia
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2007, 07:05:08 PM »
I have sympathy for the victims too.
Hope I'm not a sicko but I also feel sadness for him.

I don't know if he was abused...that was a TV commentator.
I just wonder whether there were endogenous factors. I know it's just speculation.

It's certainly not excuses for him, I'd just like to understand.

For example, I'm not mad at him for making videos and writing sick manifestos.
The kid grew up with our own media. ("Our" meaning the culture's.) So he
internalized what was appropriate for him...like everybody from the Unibomber on, and before...

I can't hate him. That's what's odd. Just can't summon any anger.

I feel sorrow for the victims and frustration at our inept mental health care and
the way bureaucracies don't help. But I don't really blame anyone.

He's morally accountable crazy or not and they're all still dead.

 :(
Hops PS--if I was going to be mad, it'd be at the media. They chose to show it.


« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 08:48:50 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Stormchild

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1183
  • It's about becoming real.
    • Gale Warnings
Re: Virginia
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2007, 07:44:31 PM »
Hops, I'm in near total agreement with you here. The point where I differ with you is that I am virtually certain that this kid WAS abused, and abused badly, by someone, and betrayed on top of it by someone who was 'supposed' to help him.

This type of ideation, this level of fury, simply does not arise ex nihilo. Something happened to this kid. I know, I know, people have delusions and kill out of total insanity. But they're rarely FURIOUS when they do that, they usually do it out of absolute fear. It's the rage that's the tipoff. This kid's rage came from somewhere. Something really, really, really bad happened to this kid.

Look at his situation in the college, for instance. The kid was ostracized. People shunned him. My god, his own suitemates never spoke to him?

Yes, he behaved in ways that put people off. But which came first? Was he shunned and ostracized all his life? Did he have any chance to learn how to interact socially? The ranting about Jesus was  pretty disturbing too... it makes me wonder if his family was strict in the religious sense, if there was pressure to 'cover up' bad things for the sake of appearances...

this kid was voiceless with a vengeance, he hardly ever spoke above a whisper, reportedly... and when he found a voice, it was horrendous: the poetry, the plays, and ultimately, the wrath of his own personal Judgement Day, and a slaughter of total innocents.

Such a waste, such an awful awful waste.
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

http://strangemercy.blogspot.com

http://potemkinsoffice.blogspot.com

debkor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Virginia
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2007, 08:00:32 PM »
Hops,

No you are not a sicko for feeling sadness.
 
I do not blame anyone for this either  (well except him) he did the killing insane or not.  The media bothers me somewhat.
The part that bothered me the most was the first video that the student took where you heard the gun shots over and over again. They played it what about every 4 to 5 mins.  They even counted the shots. (27) If it was at my children's campus I would have been NUTS OUT OF MY MIND WITH TERROR!! I can't imagine these poor parents/family members who could not contact their children.  The terror of wondering if those shots you were hearing were hitting your child. And not a damn thing you could do about it.  Maybe not even close enough to get there in a hurry.  I could see me like some psycho heading for the airlines as I heard those shots consistently in my head. 
That I thought was very insensitive. I know it's breaking news but my God!  It just really bothers me.

Love
Deb

insomniac

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: Virginia
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2007, 08:05:53 PM »
I also get the feeling this guy was abused, but not necessarily by his parents.  It could have been anyone.  I also feel bad for him, as well as his victims.  There were so many things that could have been differently, but it sounds like there were people that tried, but he was too far gone by that time to let anyone help him.

I read some of the bio's of the victims that were killed.  Such an amazing group of people--what a loss.

I also think that it showed incredibly bad judgment for the media to show the videotapes.  They made this guy "famous" now, and a "role model" for the next troubled youth looking to violence as an answer.

Stormchild

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1183
  • It's about becoming real.
    • Gale Warnings
Re: Virginia
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2007, 08:28:28 PM »
I would agree that it might not have been a parent.

the worst part is that the kid was so obviously bright. which means that he could see very clearly many of the features of his personal hell, and would have had enough imagination to be able to conclude that important adults CHOSE not to help him, back whenever.

doesn't matter who they were or why they didn't help. he was bright enough to know that they could have found a way to help if they'd wanted to.

if it had been important to them.

so he punished the entire universe, at least as much of it as he could reach.

i keep thinking of Timothy McVeigh in all this. Ted Kaczynski. Bright - even brilliant - and horrendously embittered. And ultimately it turned them into monsters.
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

http://strangemercy.blogspot.com

http://potemkinsoffice.blogspot.com

debkor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Virginia
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2007, 09:09:31 PM »

Found this article.


Cho's silence worried family, relatives say
April 19, 2007

By BO-MI LIM

ASSOCIATED PRESS

SEOUL, South Korea — Cho Seung-hui was a worry to his family because he didn’t speak much as a child, his uncle said Thursday, and there were even concerns he might be mute.

But there were no early indications that the South Korean student who killed 32 people and himself at Virginia Tech had serious problems, said the uncle, who requested to be identified only by his last name, Kim.

Advertisement

 
Cho “didn’t talk much when he was young. He was very quiet, but he didn’t display any peculiarities to suggest he may have problems,” Kim told the Associated Press in a telephone interview. “We were concerned about him being too quiet and encouraged him to talk more.”

Cho left South Korea with his family in 1992 to seek a better life in the United States, Kim said. The family never visited their homeland, and Kim said he did not recognize his nephew when his picture appeared on television as the shooter in the deadliest massacre in U.S. history.

“I am devastated,” Kim said between heavy sighs. “I don’t know what I can tell the victims’ families and the U.S. citizens. I sincerely apologize ... as a family member.”

In South Korea, Cho’s parents ran a small bookstore in Seoul, Kim said. The family lived in a two-room apartment no larger than 430 square feet.

“They had trouble making ends meet in Korea. The bookstore they had didn’t turn much profit,” Kim said.

He said his sister — Cho’s mother — occasionally called around holidays, but never mentioned having any problems with her son.

“She said the children were studying well. She didn’t seem worried about her children at all,” Kim said. “She just talked about how hard she had to work to make a living, to support the children.”

He said he has been unable to reach Cho’s mother since Monday’s massacre.

She and her husband now work at a dry cleaners in suburban Washington.

As a schoolboy in the United States, Cho’s speech problems and shyness made him a target for bullying and ridicule, former classmates said.

The South Korean immigrant almost never opened his mouth and would ignore attempts to strike up a conversation, said Chris Davids, a Virginia Tech senior who graduated from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Va., with Cho in 2003.

When Cho read out loud in class, other students laughed at his strange, deep voice that sounded “like he had something in his mouth,” Davids said.

In a video Cho mailed to NBC in the middle of his rampage at Virginia Tech, the 23-year-old portrays himself as persecuted and rants about rich kids.

Cho’s maternal grandfather also told South Korean newspapers that relatives were concerned about Cho not talking much as a child.

Cho “troubled his parents a lot when he was young because he couldn’t speak well, but was well-behaved,” the grandfather, who was identified by only his last name Kim, told the Dong-a Ilbo daily.

The family was worried that Cho might even be mute, the 81-year-old grandfather said in a separate interview with Hankyoreh newspaper.

In an editorial Thursday, the Hankyoreh said Cho’s case reflected problems faced by many South Korean immigrants in the United States.

“It is the reality of our immigrants that parents are so busy making a living that it’s not easy for them to have dialogue with young children,” the newspaper wrote.

“We should think about whether our society or our community abroad has been negligent in preventing conditions that could lead to such an aberration,” it said.

In Seoul, more than 1,000 people sang hymns and prayed for Cho’s victims at a special service at Myeongdong Cathedral, some fighting back tears. White flowers, candles and a U.S. flag adorned a small table in the center of the chapel.

“As a mother myself, my heart really aches as if it happened to my own children,” said Bang Myung-lan, a 48-year-old housewife, holding back tears. “As a Korean, I am deeply sorry for the deceased.”

Cardinal Nicolas Cheong Jin-suk urged parishioners to work together to prevent a recurrence of “such an unfortunate event.”

“Among the 32 killed were bright students who could have contributed greatly to society, and it’s a big loss for all of us,” the cardinal said. “As a South Korean, I can’t help feeling apologetic about how a Korean man caused such a shocking incident.”

“It is beyond my understanding how such a thing can occur — especially to think a Korean is responsible for this,” said 68-year-old Lee Chun-ja after the service. “It really tears my heart. Something like this should never happen again.”

Deb

mudpuppy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1276
Re: Virginia
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2007, 09:17:23 PM »
Stormy,

Ted Kacyzynski was not abused and grew up in a normal home. Ditto for Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer and Tim McVeigh.

Maybe this guy was abused. Maybe he wasn't. We simply don't know. Sometimes people are ostracized for the very understandable reason that they're menacing, frickin weirdos who are an inevitable train wreck waiting to happen.

The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Sometimes that's all there is to the story.

mud

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13619
Re: Virginia
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2007, 09:31:48 PM »
Reduced to mere words, I think it's not a wicked heart.

I think a broken heart and a broken mind produce these things.

Those are semantics, I know. And theology, and philosophy.
This is deep stuff, the nature of evil vs./illness/etc.

So much vocabulary to straddle. I'm not smart enough.
But as long as hearts are present, I'm glad we try.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Stormchild

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1183
  • It's about becoming real.
    • Gale Warnings
Re: Virginia
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2007, 09:38:38 PM »
Hi mud

But remember - abuse doesn't only occur in childhood, and people can be abused past their breaking point even as adults. In fact, sometimes abuse in adulthood devastates a person precisely because nothing in their childhood prepared them to deal with it.

There are more than enough people here on this site who can attest to the impact of abuse in adulthood...

and the choice to do evil in response to abuse is even more destructive when made by a fully grown and fully aware adult.

I just found this in the article Deb quotes:

Quote
As a schoolboy in the United States, Cho’s speech problems and shyness made him a target for bullying and ridicule, former classmates said.

The South Korean immigrant almost never opened his mouth and would ignore attempts to strike up a conversation, said Chris Davids, a Virginia Tech senior who graduated from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Va., with Cho in 2003.

When Cho read out loud in class, other students laughed at his strange, deep voice that sounded “like he had something in his mouth,” Davids said.

So... he was a target for bullying and ridicule. For how many years, I wonder. This isn't something he experienced for the first time at University. Not by a long chalk.

Again, I'm not arguing in his defense, Mud. Just pointing out that he was, indeed, abused.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 09:45:48 PM by Stormchild »
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

http://strangemercy.blogspot.com

http://potemkinsoffice.blogspot.com

BonesMS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8060
Re: Virginia
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2007, 10:02:32 PM »
The news is describing how he was humiliated in grade school and the school teachers simply just gave up on him and passed the problem on to someone else.

Bones
Back Off Bug-A-Loo!

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13619
Re: Virginia
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2007, 06:00:14 AM »
I remember another suggestion in the media that he might have been autistic.
And something's coming on now about a strange relationship with his mother (but I don't know what).
Oh. It was a great-aunt who said he wouldn't respond to her and his mother was always worried about him,
that he had psychological problems as a young child. Then she called him an idiot.

They didn't emigrate until he was 8 years old.
There can be enormous pressure from immigrant parents for a child to perform.

If, say, he was autistic or schizophrenic or plain brain-damaged, but bright enough to make it to
graduate school in engineering, and because of his personality and illness he neither had nor could
make any friends so had no companion other than his rage...and you add the pressures of school
and hormones and loneliness and academic stress and insanity and fixation on blame...

Mud, hon...does this really add up to wicked, do you think?

You know me, I stumble over the vocabulary of evil and judgment. Hmm.
Maybe it's because I too was socially isolated for years as a kid, and at the bottom of the pecking
order, and suffered a good deal from bullying. I just about broke in two from sadness, and I
had an Nish mother but a kind father, and I wasn't physically neglected.

I saw a clip of his family home in Seoul, two dirty rooms...

Okay, now I'm mad. At Ronald Reagan for eviscerating the mental health system in this country.

Okay, now I'm done being mad.

I feel witless. As much as I sense the community's grief, here's a thing:
I don't feel any more grief for the victims at Tech than I do for the 200 dead in Baghdad today.

And the media disconnect, the oddness of the outpourings over the college children and nothing
personal, no stories...about Iraqi civilians or our young soldiers...

It's the personal stories, the ability to imagine them dying because I too am a white American
who could have attended such a school, so it's not hard to imagine being there, going through it.

In some ways it reminds me of the trauma that colored college, because I was near DC and the
Viet Nam War was at full throttle, and my brother was there and friends were killed.

Sorry for the rambling. I am feeling a little guilty. I don't feel as connected as I should be.

The diet of media violence. I watch too much TV. Maybe it's as numbing as I thought.

Hops

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."