opinions wanted - hypersensitive, punitive, hateful?

[dandylife]

OK so.....I get this huge order (actually 9 orders) totalling about 500 lbs. of books. Just as I'm getting started, N asks what can I bring in from the garage for you? I answered I don't know, I'm not there yet.

Fast forward a few minutes later I see him rushing around, getting his keys starting to walk out the door. He's been avoiding talking to me, has gone to this strange monotone and stoneface he gets when he's upset. So..bye...he goes for a while.

After he gets back I'm at the end of my process and I've got 5 heavy boxes left sitting in the hallway that have to get to my car. I'm like sweating and huffing and puffing, etc. and he's...SITTING ON THE COUCH. Hell if I'm going to ask for his f-ing help so I do the last of them and I'm about to die and I want to punch him so bad but I don't so I quick take a shower and head to UPS to do it all over again unloading my car by myself and rushing to meet our daughter for a doctor  appt. Thinking about him SITTING ON THE COUCH STARING AT ME and not helping.

Ok so fast forward again. I asked him about later. My question was really unfair but in light of his answer, I guess it wasn't really that unfair. I said, "So why didn't you want to help me at the end with the last of the boxes?" And he said WELL YOU SNAPPED AT ME.

I'm like, SNAPPED AT YOU? I said I wasn't there yet. In a NICE voice.

I said SO YOU PUNISHED ME FOR YOUR VERSION OF SNAPPING AT YOU?

Geez. Not very gentlemanly. And if you ask my judgmental opinion - hypersenstive, punitive and plain mean.

How very petty and mean.

I really thought those days were done.

I even asked him if he felt bad or sorry after it was all over. He said "I felt bad you had to huff and puff."

Then he said as a solution. "The less I talk the better. " And then he actually said, "You say you now have a voice. So next time you want help ask for it."

Ok, I give that to him I could have asked. But who wants to ask a 200 lb lump on the couch who obviously doesn't want to help?

Please, guys, I need to know if I'm reading this right - is this person just plain mean? I am contemplating a new life with this person. I need to know and my own warning bells are off the charts.

Dandylife

[gs]

You may be reading this right but it sounds like you are both locked into a no win situation with each other.  No matter what you said or how you said it he was going to get his nose out of joint and once he did you were not going to ask for his help (to avoid his reaction) and yet were willing to criticize him (even though legitimate).  Neither one of you could win in this situation.  Someone has got to back off and give the other one room to make a mistake.  There is clearly a history of deeply hurt feelings between you.  This takes enormous patience to heal and get past.  It ain't difficult and it is much better if you are both able to work on it.  If he is an N he won't be able to do that.

Just my opinion based on the little bit of information you have posted.  There is all of your history with him that I have no knowledge about and you do.  But the question isn't so much whether you are right are not is it?  But don't you really want to know how, (if at all) it can get better?  It definitely take sacrifice and the first thing that must go is the need to be right.  However if you are dealing with an N all of that is mute because it probably won't get much better.  But you can always take yourself out of the equation of adding your own jabs.  Not easy. - GS

[nadine]

Hello - I've just logged in as a new person.  In December I learned of this narcissism business, a bit too late.  My story is very long...and I doubt if anyone wants to hear it, it's tiring, I'm tired.  But, what you say about the hypersensitivity of the N, and how one can never say anything exactly the 'right way' to them is enough on its own.

I've been left for the second time by my N boyfriend of 12 years.  Of course I'm feeling like the one who caused it ALL.  And of course he's got another girlfriend that is far superior and as we all know...she doesn't even know him yet.

What struck me by your notes are what you said about the communicating...and even as the relationship ends, its even harder to discuss.  The conversation is circular, loopy, you can't win or even begin to understand when you can't even figure it out. 

Unfortunately we own a home together and he's trying to force me to get a room mate to 'cushion' his part of the mortgage.  This home is beautiful and I've worked hard on it and my business office is here.  We are co-owners.  But today I told him that I was not going to be put into a reactionary 'tail spin' to suit what he wants and needs...I need some assistance in getting through this break-up and possible house sale phase...and then I need to know how to re-program my brain to continue to be successful and have a good life.

[dandylife]

MMMMMmmmm. Your responses have got me thinking. Thanks you guys. I talked more with him about it and you are all right - there is so much more simmering under the surface. He admitted that he felt "rejected" when I discounted his offer for help. That's why I asked you guys - was it PUNITIVE of him to not help me later? Just because I wasn't ready for it right then? Perhaps there was an edge in my voice that I wasn't aware of - even if there was - would that justify being punitive toward someone?

The reason I'm soooooo wondering is not that I need to be right (so much), but that I've finally got my self an "abuse governor" but it doesn't have much of a "thermometer". I can recognize abusive behavior now, but I'm not great at gradations. It's like....ok that was a 1. That was a 5. Well, THAT was a 9 on the scale, you know? I have taken so much in the past without even recognizing it as abuse that it's all new to me.

THANKS for getting me to slow down and take a closer look.

CB, I identify with the speaking in code thing. And if I was in a less stressed mode I probably WOULD have made more of an effort to be "friendly".

Besee, yes I've heard and read about different levels of sensitivity. And he is particularly sensitive in lots of areas. I thought we had been doing better as I guess there weren't too many triggers like this lately.

Nadine, the "circular, loopy" conversations - yes I'm experiencing that now as we try to discuss the issue afterwards. Some things he says just make NO sense. Or they make some very thin sense that he has somehow found a way to tie in. I hope you are okay in dealing with the aftermath of your split. It sounds like you have a great head on your shoulders! Good luck.

GS, lots and lots of history between us, yes. and lots of triggers both ways. But there is some little thing about common courtesy that just demands a helping hand in certain situations. If it were reversed and he was carrying out 40 lb boxes to his car, I wouldn't be able to face myself if I purposely ignored him or just watched him do it. But yes you're right there is more under the surface here that prevents us from communicating in a healthy normal way.

You all were very helpful here- I appreciate it!
Dandylife

[Margo]

OK so.....I get this huge order (actually 9 orders) totalling about 500 lbs. of books. Just as I'm getting started, N asks what can I bring in from the garage for you? I answered I don't know, I'm not there yet.

Fast forward a few minutes later I see him rushing around, getting his keys starting to walk out the door. He's been avoiding talking to me, has gone to this strange monotone and stoneface he gets when he's upset. So..bye...he goes for a while.

After he gets back I'm at the end of my process and I've got 5 heavy boxes left sitting in the hallway that have to get to my car. I'm like sweating and huffing and puffing, etc. and he's...SITTING ON THE COUCH. Hell if I'm going to ask for his f-ing help so I do the last of them and I'm about to die and I want to punch him so bad but I don't so I quick take a shower and head to UPS to do it all over again unloading my car by myself and rushing to meet our daughter for a doctor  appt. Thinking about him SITTING ON THE COUCH STARING AT ME and not helping.

Ok so fast forward again. I asked him about later. My question was really unfair but in light of his answer, I guess it wasn't really that unfair. I said, "So why didn't you want to help me at the end with the last of the boxes?" And he said WELL YOU SNAPPED AT ME.

I'm like, SNAPPED AT YOU? I said I wasn't there yet. In a NICE voice.

I said SO YOU PUNISHED ME FOR YOUR VERSION OF SNAPPING AT YOU?

Geez. Not very gentlemanly. And if you ask my judgmental opinion - hypersenstive, punitive and plain mean.

How very petty and mean.

I really thought those days were done.

I even asked him if he felt bad or sorry after it was all over. He said "I felt bad you had to huff and puff."

Then he said as a solution. "The less I talk the better. " And then he actually said, "You say you now have a voice. So next time you want help ask for it."

Ok, I give that to him I could have asked. But who wants to ask a 200 lb lump on the couch who obviously doesn't want to help?

Please, guys, I need to know if I'm reading this right - is this person just plain mean? I am contemplating a new life with this person. I need to know and my own warning bells are off the charts.

Dandylife

Contemplating a new life with someone who's oversensitive and punitive..... hmmmmm.  Let me think about that for a second.

 ::sigh:: 

Not exactly going to be healthy or worth the trouble you're going to go through, IMHO.  Margo

[isittoolate]

Hi Margo,

I want to ask you if you have a reason for always having the quote in your posts.

I find it disturbing--maybe I am thinking of waste of space, as that is the post everyone reads to which to reply----

well I cannot say exactly why I find that it bothers me.

Just an observation.

Regards
Izzy

[dandylife]

margo,
your comment reminds me of the questions in Dr. Phil McGraw's book Relationship Rescue. He says if you had tons of money and could break up with the person without hurting their feelings, etc. etc. would you do it? Or if you could wipe the slate and make the decision anew, would you go into a relationship with them?

all good questions for pondering.

We have a 9 year old son together and a teen daughter and lots of history. Not to mention a business together. So lots of variables! And lots at stake.

Dandylife

[Hopalong]

Dandy,
I'm so sorry. It sounds painful and strained and miserable. Do you want to keep this relationship? If so, have you thought about some serious couple counseling? Sounds like it's time for professional help, someone who can guide you both to what you need. Renewal or closure, which is another kind of renewal...

Nadine,
Welcome. I'm very sorry to hear you've suffered being left twice, and there's the real estate complication. That has to be very hard. Do you think it'll be worth holding on to the physical space if the emotional space isn't right? How about starting a new thread and tell us more. Glad you've found the board for support.

Hops

[dandylife]

Thanks Hops. It's getting more and more complicated. I think this whole thing has started a downward spiral. Perhaps it was all just sitting there simmering the whole time, just waiting for a chance to pounce on me. That's what it feels like anyhow.

We've been through some emergency marriage therapy with one of the best in the country. And it helped with conflict resolution - but it didn't help with that feeling of - OK it feels as if I've been stomped on and forgiveness is a long way off - how to deal with that? It's easy to forgive if you know the person's intentions were good even if their behavior was bad. But I just see bad punitive behavior here.

I feel like I should listen to my gut....
Dandylife

[Gaining Strength]

Dandylife - I have noticed that the core issue in marital or relationship strife can sometimes be an echo of a similar issue in one's FOO.  How far back in you life - before your Sig Oth - have you experienced punitive behavior?  Did either of your parents treat you that way?

Even if you decide to terminate your relationship it is well worth getting to the source of the troubles because without resolving the issues within yourself they have a way of following you around.  Unfortunately one of the most difficult early steps is learning to look inward and figuring out what you can do differently. It is always hard when someone else's behavior is so clearly wrong but even still there is something in our own behavior that can be altered.

Many years ago a well known psychologist who studied under Bowen advised me to learn to be a non-anxious presence in the midst of chaos - not an easy task but on contemplation the value of that can be seen as enormous.

(Under the catagory of Easier Said Than Done) The place for exploration is WHY are you reacting so strongly to his actions.  Try clinically to take yourself out of the middle (as though you are an objective third party) and imagine other reactions you can have but also try to get to the wounds that he is reopening.  It sounds as though you two have gotten into a very familiar pattern of touching each other's wounds round and round.  The only way for change is to be willing to look at your own wounds and find other ways to react.  If you are willing to do this the reward can be extraordinary.

[dandylife]

GS, in my family of origin, the most likely thing happening at any given moment was a fight between my parents that was SO petty and silly as to be obvious to a 4 year old. "You didn't put the salt on the table." Spiral from there to a screaming, obscenity laced, insult flinging mostly verbal match. So, I HATE fights and I HATE fights about little stuff. In the past I have let so much slide because I just refused to get into fighting matches about minutae. It just drove me nuts as a kid and I promised myself I wouldn't have that kind of relationship. Well......look what's happened!

Today we talked more and after a round of him deflecting away from his behavior and trying to focus on other things I did "wrong", we finally got to the issues. He apologized! That made me feel so much better mentally. I just didn't want to have to admit to myself that I had chosen a mean, nasty person to give my love to. And I recognized that I could have attempted to head everything off with a kind request for his help. So the blame was equally portioned.

I will look at this further in myself to see how I can have different reactions and behaviors if this kind of thing should happen again.

This really helped me get through the situation better -thanks to all of you who responded!
Dandylife

[Gaining Strength]

Dandylife I am so happy to hear this in your post:

Today we talked more and after a round of him deflecting away from his behavior and trying to focus on other things I did "wrong", we finally got to the issues. He apologized! That made me feel so much better mentally. I just didn't want to have to admit to myself that I had chosen a mean, nasty person to give my love to. And I recognized that I could have attempted to head everything off with a kind request for his help. So the blame was equally portioned.

There are so many significant things revealed in this short paragraph.

But first let me say - without full conviction but more as a suggestion - the fact that he could apologize (assuming it was sincere) perhaps he displays N tendencies without being a full blown N.  I am so glad that he could apologize and did.  This suggests to me that he is able to and wants to have a reconciliation.  That is so helpful.  When he is focusing or you are just fearing that he will focus on "things you did wrong" it is very difficult (probably impossible) to participate in relationship.  Because he apologized it gives you breathing room to let your walls down and consider how you can alter your behavior (not because you were wrong but because the pressure is off).  I firmly believe that in revising things in through hindsight you actually begin to change the way your react going forward.  Just by recognizing that you could have offered a "kind request for his help" is huge and I truly believe as you look for opportunities like this one you will see truly significant changes in your relationship - simply because his willingness to apoligize indicates his openness for reconciliation.  I admire you for being willing to examine this.  It takes a lot of guts. - Gaining Strength

[dandylife]

Gaining Strength (I love that moniker),

Thanks for your analysis. I am constantly thirsting for people's opinions on whether or not they see my xN having the capacity to have a real reciprocal relationship. But it's so hard to ask an opinion without a long drawn out version of events. I am feeling so ignorant of what a real, true, loving relationship looks and feels like. I so crave it. But I don't know. I've never really seen one up close for any real period of time. (maybe my maternal grandparents.)

Coincidentally, Izzy posted a wonderful link to a website that had just those questions on it - (q's that would identify an abuser's likelihood of changing). Thanks Izzy! That was very eye-opening. He had more than 7 of the good qualities, which supposedly indicates he has potential!

Dandylife

[nogadge]

wISH i COULD HAVE SOUGHT OUT THESE TYPE OF RESOURCES AS YOU DID , AS QUICKLY AS YOU DID.  GOOD FOR YOU.  IT'S SO HARD TO MAKE SENSE WHEN YOU CAN'T WIN FOR LOOSING.  NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO IT IS NEVER RIGHT, GOOD ENOUGH, NOR CAN YOU GIVE ENOUGH.  ALL I WAS LEFT WITH WAS BEING BENT, TWISTED AND TIED UP IN KNOTS FOR NEARLY 30 YEARS.  I AM SO GRATEFUL TO FINALLY BREATH AGAIN.  I HOPE YOU HAVE CLOSED YOUR EYES AND STARTED TO REMEMBER WHO YOU WERE WHEN YOU STARTED IN YOUR JOURNEY TO WHERE YOU ARE.  IT TOOK A LONG TIME FOR ME TO, AND AT LEAST I AM.  I DIDN'T LIKE WHO I HAD BECOME,  I DO LIKE WHO I AM REMEMBERING MYSELF TO BE AGAIN.

[Certain Hope]

Hi, Nogadge,

I just wanted to welcome you to the board and hope you'll post some more as you feel ready.

You are a survivor, indeed.... 30 years! Hugs to you.

And I really like what you wrote about remembering who you are again... so wonderful! Congratulations

Carolyn